In terms of value to a store, I'm trying to figure out how best to present RPGs in a way that they will be competitive for space with CCGs as things to be run or played. Thing is, from hanging out and observing a few CCG tournaments, I cannot say that it will be money because a CCG draft is a guarenteed group of sales for those involved.
So does anybody have any ideas or suggestions on how to present RPGs in a way that they will be considered viable competetors for space to play in a FLGS?
Quote from: jeff37923;679899In terms of value to a store, I'm trying to figure out how best to present RPGs in a way that they will be competitive for space with CCGs as things to be run or played. Thing is, from hanging out and observing a few CCG tournaments, I cannot say that it will be money because a CCG draft is a guarenteed group of sales for those involved.
So does anybody have any ideas or suggestions on how to present RPGs in a way that they will be considered viable competetors for space to play in a FLGS?
I'm hard pressed to come up with one really.
I mean, groups will buy food/drinks but so do CCGers. We'll buy books and dice, but I really doubt we'll drop the money that crad-floppers will.
We generally require less (no) staff support. No score keeping, braket updating, prize support, etc...
Mandatory overpriced official character sheets combined with high PC mortality?
Quote from: Piestrio;679904I'm hard pressed to come up with one really.
I mean, groups will buy food/drinks but so do CCGers. We'll buy books and dice, but I really doubt we'll drop the money that crad-floppers will.
We generally require less (no) staff support. No score keeping, braket updating, prize support, etc...
Yeah, that is the thing. For most RPG Players, it is just a handfull of comparatively high dollar purchases competing with a torrent of low dollar purchases. The CCG Players have got it by volume, if not individual price.
Considering the money singles sales rack up for any serious CCG store, card games win on individual item price, too.
Yeah, I think this is a bit of a fools errand unfortunately.
If the store is busy and popular nearly any other group of gamers will probably be profitable than an RPG group.
Thinking a bit more about this, I don't think there's any "rational" economic argument for a store to displace CCG space for RPGs. It still makes sense to have both, obviously, as it broadens their customer base.
Quote from: jeff37923;679907Yeah, that is the thing. For most RPG Players, it is just a handfull of comparatively high dollar purchases competing with a torrent of low dollar purchases. The CCG Players have got it by volume, if not individual price.
CCGers also regularly make these small purchases; you mentioned limited formats, but the current games also have regular expansions that you need to buy into to stay current.
RPG's generally don't offer that any more - expansion books are relatively rare and not even every player will need them, dice only need to be bought once (Even if you like buying new dice for new games, like I do), counters only need to be bought once
ever.
Ok, you might not like this solution, but it is one possible way:
Go as close as you can to miniature-based boardgames as you can.
No, i do not suggest tweaking the rules, even thought that might happen.
I mean this:
* Use Miniatures.
* Use any fitting enough floorplans you have, or make your own.
* Only play the "dungeouncrawl" part in D&D settings, in Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, just the 'run, in other settings, just one mission or similar.
No "how the assignment is accepted" or things afterwards.
* Essentially, make it visual, simpler to understand, and less time-consuming.
Or, if you really want another idea, compare games with food:
Only one type of food do not work in the long run, the others are also needed. Not just cardgames: boardgames and rpgs is neccesary too, to get a good all-round effect.
It just isn't going to happen I don't think.
A good CCG practically prints money. RPGs aren't a money sucking endeavor.
Its good for us RPGers, but bad for the people selling them :P.
(Honestly, I wouldn't want to change it. The only way to change it is to make RPGers spend more money somehow, and I wouldn't want to be in a hobby as moneysucking as CCGs)
I just don't see how it can be done. CCGs just have too much volume to compete with. What with starter decks, booster packs, singles, play mats, card sleeves, etc. With RPGs once you have to core books you don't have to buy anything else, but for people who are competitive in the CCG seen you have to be up on the latest sets. It is one of the reasons I don't play MTG anymore, in my area casual play is almost not a thing, everyone at least does Friday Night Magic.
It seems like FLGS in my area always end up being largely Magic oriented. Not a bad thing, just a thing.
"Card game players don't throw Molotovs through yer front window just 'cause ye'r not carryin' enough card games. Things burn, is all I'm sayin', guv'. This is a pretty shop, would be a shame if anythin' 'appened to it..."
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8164/a2au.gif)
Can't be done.
CCGs are literally a license to print money. Cardboard and ink is cheap. Repeat purchases are guaranteed due to speculative secondary market.
Minis are somewhat a license to print money. Plastic and paint is cheap. high front load purchase is necessary to complete an army. Conversions assure multiple purchases from hobbyists.
Gear to port and protect both assure additional sales.
All RPGs have in sales comparison are splats and modules. Outside of snack consumption -- and perhaps the store selling stationary :p -- I don't see how RPGs will ever have an economic impetus to push aside those groups for more space.
The only real big opportunity would be board game space. When they are hot, they are hot. But when they lag they take up lots of shelf space, lock up a lot of inventory money, and can have high entry cost. Board games are getting very expensive lately, but stupidly RPGs are trying to compete in high prices (beautiful production values granted, but not all that necessary).
The thing is, since most other big box stores barely bother with RPGs at all, where else would there be public exposure, let alone public space to play? Some things really aren't about the money, but have a real cultural impact in the long arc.
Ii think the original D&D and numerous other RPGs could very easily present their rules-sets in the form of a TCG. The format wouldn't be conducive to crunchier games, but the format might even be beneficial for a light game.
I don't know if that would really help. It's just a novel way of repackaging of rules, in a delightfully inconvenient format where the pages can be shuffled and lost.
If it was a regular card game, derived from setting but not rules related, that's been tried several times: Spellfire, Vampire the Eternal Struggle, Rage, Mythos, On the Edge, etc. The boom and bust is gone.
The best option I can see is an evergreen format that's locked at around 3 times a minimum wage hour, for greatest market accessibility. Then it could be printed repeatedly on the cheap, and eventually stay cheap through multiple print runs and little format change. That would entice big box stores to even bother stocking it, and they'd just dump it next to other board and card game classics, like Uno and Monopoly. (And no, they would never be as successful as those examples. But if they become as well known as Hungry Hungry Hippos or Tiddly Winks that's good enough.)
I think if anything, we should want to be less like CCGs and more like collectible books.
In any case, its not a zero-sum game. The RPG market could take advantage of the current popularity of both CCGs and board games and benefit from this. Or rather, clever gaming-store owners could.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;680510I think if anything, we should want to be less like CCGs and more like collectible books.
In any case, its not a zero-sum game. The RPG market could take advantage of the current popularity of both CCGs and board games and benefit from this. Or rather, clever gaming-store owners could.
RPGPundit
Yeah, I think there is definetly room to take advantage of CCG popularity. I have convinced quite a few Magic players over the years to give D&D a try. In my area though a lot of the CCG players are gamers in general and of those who aren't I haven't really come across any who weren't open to the idea of RPGs.
Use your brain for a moment, Wizard, and release MtG's settings as D&D's. Ravnica'd be a really cool setting, something how I always imagined Planescape to be.
Quote from: Opaopajr;679972The only real big opportunity would be board game space. When they are hot, they are hot. But when they lag they take up lots of shelf space, lock up a lot of inventory money, and can have high entry cost. Board games are getting very expensive lately, but stupidly RPGs are trying to compete in high prices (beautiful production values granted, but not all that necessary).
The only people responsible for that, are gamers. We bought the pretty books. We passed over black-and-white on matte paper for colour on shiny paper, and now we are getting what we collectively asked for.
Anyway, compared to art books or textbooks, game books are still really cheap.
QuoteThe thing is, since most other big box stores barely bother with RPGs at all, where else would there be public exposure, let alone public space to play? Some things really aren't about the money, but have a real cultural impact in the long arc.
When it comes to business, it is all about the money. Always.
Why would a store
want to transition it's customers from a high-volume, high-margin product with fantastic turnover to a low-volume, low-margin product with a lot more dependencies (ie, without corebooks, you're not going to sell many supplements) and slower turnover? Sure, a given store owner may want to push RPG's because he likes them (I would), but he'd be a fool to let them dominate over more profitable items.
The argument has to be based on environment. Creating an environment that encourages RPG gamers to gather frequently can create all kinds of additional purchases (assuming a stocked section). When going to game, you might pick up more dice, minis, or other accessories. The more time and gamers that come in, the more incidental sales will increase.
Unfortunately, a number of stores have had problems with either the quality of gamer hanging out or said gamer actually running sales away. Telling people not to buy a book at the store they're physically in because it's half the price on Amazon, for instance!
As a fellow Knoxville resident, what's your thought, here? Trying to get C&M Games in the mall to offer table space for RPGs?
Here is how we met the need in my city. Our FLGS is next to some restaurants mostly family run sandwich shops. We approached one owner and asked for some play space. He was good enough to give us a try. We buy snacks and soda from him and clean up after ourselves. Space can be had we just have to be creative about finding it and support the shops that give us space.
Exactly why I say FLGS are now essentially a service industry in the age of internet shopping. Outside of CCGs and minis there's no room for the FLGS owner to shift their shelf space; sadly business needs in a FLGS dictates a zero sum model.
But that doesn't mean it's zero sum everywhere. Big box stores are a real opportunity for evergreen formats. FLGS can, and do, fill slow nights with PFS and other organized play (customer base can't support CCG tourneys every day, and Friday Night Magic and Draft sessions can only go so far in a week economically). Customers learning to order RPGs through their FLGS is also a place for expansion.
Asses in seats (that buy stuff) support service industries, so a community response where gamers are good customers helps. Maintains visibility be it bar or FLGS. Outside of libraries though I cannot think of any non-commercial public space.
But yeah, competing for shelf space is doubtful at best. Just having a presence at this point is impressive.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;680546As a fellow Knoxville resident, what's your thought, here? Trying to get C&M Games in the mall to offer table space for RPGs?
I'm trying to figure out some good arguements and approaches to use there and at other stores. Unfortunately, C&M Games has already let it be known that while RPGs can be played in their space, they can be kicked out by any CCG gamers who decide to camp out and think you are sitting in their seat.
I should also point out that I am not asking for shelf space for product as much as I am asking for play space at their tables.
Yeah, can't help there. Gotta find a place with more play space, get in good with the owner and workers, find the slow hours, or consume epic shares of snacks.
Heck, one FLGS near me has dumped minis and ghettoized CCGers because PC game time rental eclipses even them. Sure they run some organized play like Encounters, but they are even more dumped into the back rooms than the CCG players. FPSs, RTSs, and MMOs bring in way more consistent money, and urban rents place a lot of pressure.
Quote from: jeff37923;680688I'm trying to figure out some good arguements and approaches to use there and at other stores. Unfortunately, C&M Games has already let it be known that while RPGs can be played in their space, they can be kicked out by any CCG gamers who decide to camp out and think you are sitting in their seat.
That sounds kinda like a "if you don't really want be to be here, fine, I'll stop coming" issue. If they've really been that blunt, you're not really welcome as RPG customers.
I would go with a variety argument. Gamers who get bored stop buying, and if they miss even one season they may quit for good. RPGs give an alternative that keeps them in the store.
I think rpgs need to shift their product focus to solid point of entry offerings. Once you grab the customer you can sell them all kinds of on-line stuff but you need stores to draw in new customers.
I've been saying D&D needs a high toy value, very complete starter set for a long time. However, I think the very complete might matter more than the toy value. Because rpgs can beat the shit out of collectable card games and miniatures games in the value department. As far as continuing sales go, I think a magazine, yes a print magazine, would be a great tool. But only if you make the magazine the format for all new material so there's nowhere else to go for it and keep the price low enough that it's not a no-brainer to download a scan and print it.
So what I'm talking about is a reduced product range and hopefully more sales. Because what I see, sitting here in my gaming store is that the price point on rpgs has become absurd. Not so much because the core books are fifty to a hundred dollars but because the material has been stretched so thin between so many books and the rules have 7 become so complex and convoluted. You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point. Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.
Anyone producing an entry level rpg where you don't create your own characters should be drummed out of the industry. I mean how stupid are these designer people?
I've suggested something similar for GURPS for years.
Quote from: David Johansen;680762I think rpgs need to shift their product focus to solid point of entry offerings. Once you grab the customer you can sell them all kinds of on-line stuff but you need stores to draw in new customers.
I've been saying D&D needs a high toy value, very complete starter set for a long time. However, I think the very complete might matter more than the toy value. Because rpgs can beat the shit out of collectable card games and miniatures games in the value department. As far as continuing sales go, I think a magazine, yes a print magazine, would be a great tool. But only if you make the magazine the format for all new material so there's nowhere else to go for it and keep the price low enough that it's not a no-brainer to download a scan and print it.
So what I'm talking about is a reduced product range and hopefully more sales. Because what I see, sitting here in my gaming store is that the price point on rpgs has become absurd. Not so much because the core books are fifty to a hundred dollars but because the material has been stretched so thin between so many books and the rules have 7 become so complex and convoluted. You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point. Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.
Anyone producing an entry level rpg where you don't create your own characters should be drummed out of the industry. I mean how stupid are these designer people?
I've suggested something similar for GURPS for years.
Also what happened to modules?
Not to be all "back in my day" but back when I started playing I'd say the bulk of my purchases at my FLGS were adventure modules. They provided a fairly cheap 'fix' that I could look forward to and buy every once in a while.
Quote from: Piestrio;680767Also what happened to modules?
Not to be all "back in my day" but back when I started playing I'd say the bulk of my purchases at my FLGS were adventure modules. They provided a fairly cheap 'fix' that I could look forward to and buy every once in a while.
Ditto that. I've bought and read FAR more modules than I have ever used. Almost like comic books, really.
As far as competing for table space goes, it got to the point where I went out and found a space to rent. Contacted distributors. Maxed out my credit card and set up a gaming store devoted to rpgs and miniatures. No ccgs period.
I wouldn't suggest it to everyone, and the business model is far from perfect. Indeed I'm hoping to finally stop losing money this fall. But here's the thing, I'm serious about my hobby and I want to promote it. The existing local stores lacked the knowledge, the interest, and indeed the desire to do so.
It's mostly an issue of building a comunity and surviving until it becomes sustainable. You don't have to carry the mainstream products. People can get those anywhere. But you do need something that's fairly popular. For my store it's been Flames of War because the local stores don't carry it. I've got Kings of War and Army painter so Warhammer fans still have something they can buy at my store but they don't do nearly as well. I'm waffling on bringing in some basics for Pathfinder and D&D but honestly they didn't sell when I had them at first and I ended up trading them off to one of the other stores for some Traveller and GURPS stock.
I really wish more companies had good point of entry products. It's hard to pitch $200 in GURPS books to a person who's never played an rpg.
I'd suggest having around $20k to start out anyhow. That's about my losses so far and it's just starting to turn around. It's not impossible to do it just very hard.
As for the OP: Don't kid yourselves, ladies and gentlemen. No way in hell.
Quote from: David Johansen;680762So what I'm talking about is a reduced product range and hopefully more sales. Because what I see, sitting here in my gaming store is that the price point on rpgs has become absurd. Not so much because the core books are fifty to a hundred dollars but because the material has been stretched so thin between so many books and the rules have 7 become so complex and convoluted. You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point. Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.
Yeah, there has to be a point of entry. The various Basic D&D boxes in the 80s provided this, and was probably the single largest influx of players. For a relatively low price you could get everything you needed to play the game. You didn't have to buy three hardcover books, dice, and a bunch of other stuff. You got it all.
Quote from: David Johansen;680762Anyone producing an entry level rpg where you don't create your own characters should be drummed out of the industry. I mean how stupid are these designer people?
To an extent - again, remember that Basic D&D barely let you design your characters by "modern standards", and that the vast majority of MMOs offload the heavy character decisions until later in the game deliberately.
Too much character creation crap at the beginning of the game creates a learning cliff for new players. The goal should be primarily to ease the learning curve and get them playing and having fun as quickly as possible.
Quote from: David Johansen;680882I wouldn't suggest it to everyone, and the business model is far from perfect. Indeed I'm hoping to finally stop losing money this fall. But here's the thing, I'm serious about my hobby and I want to promote it. The existing local stores lacked the knowledge, the interest, and indeed the desire to do so.
Do you live in Washington, by any chance?
Anyway, I think the idea of game taverns or the like is probably the "future" of RPGs at retail. You've gotta make money, and RPGs in general don't turn over a lot of product (compared to CCGs, etc.). But people do love to eat and drink while they game, and having a good place to game is gold.
Quote from: David Johansen;680762You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point. Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.
Personally, I think they need to aim in the $30-$50 range, but the boxed set they produce
is the game: Not an introductory set. Not a pay-to-preview product that you toss in the closet when you buy the real version of the game.
That's achievable. You can produce a stripped down core rulebook that jettisons the depth of the advanced options the game has accumulated over the years while still presenting the full
breadth of the game. You could hit a $30 price point for that product. Inch it up to $50 if you put it in a box with an introductory adventure, character sheets, and whatnot.
Hackmaster 4e had a novel approach to this problem- requiring official minis and having somewhat random thus collectable consumable player and dm "coupons" in the back of books which allowed one to get away with some antic. In addition they had a registered system of DMs.
Renting out tables is an option to generate revenue, it weeds out the riffraff, but maybe turns off too many folks.
Pay to play scheme with associated discount? Or get a Bone free deal?
A beer license?
Hotdog spinner (soy dogs can be put on as well)?
Official store cups with spill proof caps (no other drinks allowed)?
Toilet charge?
George Foreman with frozen burgers? Microwave with burritos/White Castles?
Frozen Pizza oven?
How much is a POD printer anyhow? That could possibly be an option- be a destination for POD to save time and shipping.
LARP events?
Weekly schedule of set games with set table allocation?
Intro night?
Mini painting night?
First Friday Madness- 24 hours of adventure! on the first friday of the month.
Licensed day care :p
Holy fuck! $20,000! In starting your own wtore dedicated to just RPGs and minis? For the love of the hobby?
Pundit, give this man a dispensation to pimp out his store gratis, stat!
Dude, you should totally host a mini-con, maybe even a more frequent event, like Monthly Mayhem, or Quarterly Quests. Be sure to be the prime snack purveyor and avoid the temptation for gross caffeine markups.
:)
Quote from: Teazia;681146Renting out tables is an option to generate revenue, it weeds out the riffraff, but maybe turns off too many folks.
Bad idea. Garners ill will. Just have a policy where tourney players hold priority, which most people find reasonable.
Pay to play scheme with associated discount? Or get a Bone free deal?
complicated to implement, likely hard to recover loss as the regulars are going to benefit most, but unlikely vomit forth more sales.
A beer license?
tempting and ingenious. but brings its own headaches, also kills off the underage market.
Hotdog spinner (soy dogs can be put on as well)?
fire hazard, less fuss the better. keep it frozen and microwavable.
Official store cups with spill proof caps (no other drinks allowed)?
locks up inventory money. OK for play mats, t-shirts, mugs, etc. but a little goes a long way.
Toilet charge?
suicidal levels of ill will.
George Foreman with frozen burgers? Microwave with burritos/White Castles?
great idea, along with ice cream, etc. and already done successfully elsewhere. pays for itself rapidly. only issue is same with soda and snacks, consistent stocking.
Frozen Pizza oven?
fire hazard, sucks up space and energy. too much for too little return. better just smaller frozen microwavable pizzas, they exist.
How much is a POD printer anyhow? That could possibly be an option- be a destination for POD to save time and shipping.
that's utterly brilliant. i don't know POD printer costs, but could shift from online PDF everything to players going to FLGS to POD their stuff. Only catch is $ upfront in printer, paper, and demand.
LARP events?
not bad. could start riots from cosplay & LARP community tending to put off war minis and CCGers; something about dressing up threatens masculinity or something. i never got the animus myself, so fuck it, why not?
Weekly schedule of set games with set table allocation?
weekly schedule, good. reserved region for tourneys, good. fixed table allocation throughout the week, very, very bad. humans bicker over the stupidest perceived slights.
Intro night?
Mini painting night?
good and often already done. occasionally translates into sales.
First Friday Madness- 24 hours of adventure! on the first friday of the month.
with Friday Night Magic such a consistent WotC thing, and bringing in such money, absolutely impossible. However a Monthly Madness idea is solid otherwise.
Licensed day care :p
Not as comically bad as you think. There's a lot of young parents who'd love a cheap night out to socialize while still having their kids safe. Since a lot of FLGS offer raised TVs showing movies (often Simpsons and Futurama type stuff) and offer snacks, it'd be a cheaper night out for young parents than current movie theaters. (Have you seen those ticket and snack prices? Sweet Jayzus!) Would have to be in a separate cry room, though.
Thanks for throwing out some ideas!
:)
I think some recommendations are in order, in terms of "stores you should visit to see how they do it", and around the Twin Cities that's still The Source Comics & Games (http://www.sourcecomicsandgames.com/), which has partnerships with other geek groups in town (notably the gaming club at the Geek Partnership Society (http://geekpartnership.org/about-gps/)) to cross-promote as well as off-load some of the organization hassles.
Quote from: mcbobbo;680769Ditto that. I've bought and read FAR more modules than I have ever used. Almost like comic books, really.
Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;681101That's achievable. You can produce a stripped down core rulebook that jettisons the depth of the advanced options the game has accumulated over the years while still presenting the full breadth of the game. You could hit a $30 price point for that product. Inch it up to $50 if you put it in a box with an introductory adventure, character sheets, and whatnot.
Okay, sure, but that doesn't get you repeat purchases anywhere near the scale of a CCG. For a draft, you're looking at $20ish of boosters for each player (I'm out of the loop on CCG pricing), each session. For your RPG box, that's a one-time purchase of $50, for a group of fiveish people... and that's possibly your lot. Adventures, again, that's something only one player needs to buy for the entire group, and unless you're got a crippleware boxed set, players will probably be able to make up their own soon enough (Or just download other people's from the internet).
And whatever game you publich, it's not going to appeal to everyone, and you're going to have quite a lot of customer turnover as people leave your market (Either to other games, or other hobbies). If you're Games Workshop, sure, you can handle this, because
all these customers are going to spend a few hundred on an army and associated before leaving the hobby. But you can be in the roleplaying hobby for years and literally never spend any money, easily.
Our hobby is
just too awesome in that respect. We're the best value for money, by far, of
any entertainment, but that means we don't have the money to tell anyone that. We just aren't good retail products.
Quote from: nobody, yetBut this is what worked in the 80's!
Unless you have a time machine, you're not selling products to the 1980's any more.
Quote from: Teazia;681146Toilet charge?
That is the worst idea ever.
QuoteHow much is a POD printer anyhow? That could possibly be an option- be a destination for POD to save time and shipping.
That would be cool, but I think you're looking at six figures initial set-up, plus supplies and maintenance.
Quote from: TristramEvans;681200Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.
I could see it if they were modular modules. Site or event based with hooks leading in and tails leading out. Rules light, or even 'bring your own rules' type things.
Quote from: TristramEvans;681200Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.
I've long held that this is a viable format for an RPG. Probably not industry changing but viable.
Quote from: Catelf;679922Ok, you might not like this solution, but it is one possible way:
Go as close as you can to miniature-based boardgames as you can.
No, i do not suggest tweaking the rules, even thought that might happen.
I mean this:
* Use Miniatures.
* Use any fitting enough floorplans you have, or make your own.
* Only play the "dungeouncrawl" part in D&D settings, in Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, just the 'run, in other settings, just one mission or similar.
No "how the assignment is accepted" or things afterwards.
* Essentially, make it visual, simpler to understand, and less time-consuming.
I usually do this for when I run demo games so that people can see how the system handles situations in play.
Quote from: Catelf;679922Or, if you really want another idea, compare games with food:
Only one type of food do not work in the long run, the others are also needed. Not just cardgames: boardgames and rpgs is neccesary too, to get a good all-round effect.
Quote from: mcbobbo;680749I would go with a variety argument. Gamers who get bored stop buying, and if they miss even one season they may quit for good. RPGs give an alternative that keeps them in the store.
I'm going to refine this approach and go with that and see how it works. The idea that customers might become bored with CCGs and this will help keep them in the store plus the overlap from RPG gamers who play CCGs bringing in some money.
Quote from: David Johansen;680882As far as competing for table space goes, it got to the point where I went out and found a space to rent. Contacted distributors. Maxed out my credit card and set up a gaming store devoted to rpgs and miniatures. No ccgs period.
I wouldn't suggest it to everyone, and the business model is far from perfect. Indeed I'm hoping to finally stop losing money this fall. But here's the thing, I'm serious about my hobby and I want to promote it. The existing local stores lacked the knowledge, the interest, and indeed the desire to do so.
It's mostly an issue of building a comunity and surviving until it becomes sustainable.
I've been giving this approach a lot of thought lately.
I do not think having a store would benefit as much as having a game club where people can come and run RPGs and other games. I wouldn't be looking for a profit, but would be looking to just cover expenses to keep it open and viable.
Quote from: TristramEvans;681200Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.
I agree, but every time I mention it I get shouted down.
Quote from: VectorSigma;681345I agree, but every time I mention it I get shouted down.
I'm detecting a lack of shouting thus far...
Quote from: mcbobbo;681353I'm detecting a lack of shouting thus far...
Historically, I mean. :) I'm relieved to see others think it'd work, frankly.
I think it would be a cheap publishing alternative for quick-start modules, and these days no one bats an eye at paying $4 or $5 for a comic. Might even get more rpg products into comic shops.
The problem with a gaming club is that people aren't great about paying membership fees and if there's a place to play for free the people will mostly go there instead.
Selling some product lets them spend their gaming dollars at the club and support it at the same time. One thing that can work is an annual membership fee for a sizable discount. Another I've contemplated is a table fee and table time cuepons for purchases.
I don't know about a comic book format. The advantage in price comes at fairly high volumes. I've seen ash can / little black book sized booklet modules and a few other mini module games.. I have thought that a legal sized cover with an overleaf of counters / foldups would be a good way to go on such a product. But a comic book sized booklet would be better if you could afford printing on that scale.
I looked pretty closely at publishing Galactic Adventures in a magazine format initially and doing issues to support it. Even there, a web press run of a 32 page 8 1/2 x 11 booklets was running $5000 - $10000. And you had to run around 5000 copies or there abouts. It's ten year old information though.
Quote from: David Johansen;681390I don't know about a comic book format. The advantage in price comes at fairly high volumes.
http://ka-blam.com/printing/front/
Ka-Blam prints comics like Lulu prints books. I can print a 32-pager with color cover, b&w interior for $2.04 per copy. Full color interior jumps to $3.30. That's regardless of total # ordered.
The downside I saw was that they need the files in a slightly persnickety way with regard to bleed and stuff; I presume a layout person would understand what they're saying, but what I took away was "don't just send them a pdf". :)
Anyway, this thread came at a great time; have a few friends starting up a small game shop, and they're definitely Magic-focused stock wise to start, which just makes good sense. Keeping the right rpg stock is going to be a challenge in that venue, I think. We'll see what happens.
Interesting, you'd need to charge $6.00 or even $8.00 to sell it through retail. I wonder what their minimum orders are.
Quote from: David Johansen;681461Interesting, you'd need to charge $6.00 or even $8.00 to sell it through retail. I wonder what their minimum orders are.
Minimum order is one; they have a sister site where customers can order the comics and you get a cut etc etc.
At the same price?
I wonder what the print quality is? Still, it's an interesting venture.
Cheap newsprint pages ( like old comics ) in b&w with a colour cover couldn't be too much. Shopping around, one could probably do a decent retail of 5.99-6.99, which is still at " impulse buy" level. Could probably, if ambitious enough, get them carried through Diamond. Initial investment might be a bit, but certainly less than, say, the format currently used by DCC, and unlike a comicbook series , issues wouldn't " expire" , so initial back stock from a run of say 3000 , would continue to make money with reorders.
At the very least it would be a cheaper alternative to a $10 to $20 module. And I honestly think the format would give it an edge in sales.
My understanding is that newsprint while cheaper in bulk is unsuitable for the low run methods and that even for actual comics it's not cost effective compared to white paper.
Even so, I miss newsprint comics. And I loved the comic style Mechanoid Invasion Book I. So I'm not against the idea, I just wonder if it's logistically sound.
It's somewhat like the old saw "Why don't they just do all the miniatures in plastic so they could be cheaper?" There's a break point at which point the cost of the moulds means the plastic isn't cheaper at all.
Even so, I do think cheaper formats and introductory products are probably the thing that's needed to save the rpg industry. Minigames...
Actually, Steve Jackson's last Car Wars edition was a good format but he made some mistakes which led him to discard the idea as untenable. The first was bad cover art. Pictures of the counters fighting and the logo simply don't cut it. What happened to Zircher's brilliant, airbrushed Autoduel cover painting? The second was the whole two cars per booklet model. The car control sheets could have been black and white and an actual core book with vehicle design and machineguns could have been done. The last bad issue was the absence of car design and motorcycle design in the core.
Yes, I think the format would have worked if it was more like the original pocket box. Just like I think D&D would do better as an introductory game if it was more like Basic D&D and less like a cross between Descent, World of Warcraft, and a parking puzzle.
Quote from: dungeon crawler;680562Here is how we met the need in my city. Our FLGS is next to some restaurants mostly family run sandwich shops. We approached one owner and asked for some play space. He was good enough to give us a try. We buy snacks and soda from him and clean up after ourselves. Space can be had we just have to be creative about finding it and support the shops that give us space.
I have to amend this post! Two more Restaurants/watering holes have added game nights. The first one premiered last night and it was packed. Here are the RPG's that I saw played. Mongoose Traveller, D&D Rules cyclopedia, Mutant Future, Savage Worlds, Pathfinder and a neat post apocalyptic game called Atomic Highway. This odes not include the board games and card games (Cribbage and such not a ccg in sight).
Quote from: jeff37923;679899In terms of value to a store, I'm trying to figure out how best to present RPGs in a way that they will be competitive for space with CCGs as things to be run or played. Thing is, from hanging out and observing a few CCG tournaments, I cannot say that it will be money because a CCG draft is a guarenteed group of sales for those involved.
So does anybody have any ideas or suggestions on how to present RPGs in a way that they will be considered viable competitors for space to play in a FLGS?
RPGs will never compete with CCGs. Among other things CCGs are just too convenient; quick setup and quick game play. This is probably the main reason they dwarf all other forms of gaming.
What you want to aim for is to make RPGs (and Board games) a steady profit center for the store.
The big issue (and it doesn't just effect RPGs) is the rise of internet publishing. As RPGs are primarily a book product and Internet publishing strikes directly at the heart of the viability of RPGs at a game store. What games stores have that the internet doesn't is a physical presence, and immediate service.
I wouldn't say the two are in competition any more than waterskis are in competition with roller skates. CCGs are more lucrative, however, but then so are video games and board games and just about every other type of game. The thing is, none of those are substitutes for or even comparable tO the experience of roleplaying. The closest would be the How to Host a Murder-type games, and I've advocated previously looking to those for ideas on presenting and marketing RPGs.
I used to play Magic on the tournament circle, and only a small minority of people that also played at the level seemed to be into roleplaying as well. Most of them were aware of D&D but not too interested in it.
There was an article on NBC News today about Magic in it's 20th year. Looks like it makes a lot of money:
http://www.today.com/tech/20-years-magic-gathering-still-going-strong-not-just-middle-8C11044163
Quote from: deadDMwalking;687342There was an article on NBC News today about Magic in it's 20th year. Looks like it makes a lot of money:
http://www.today.com/tech/20-years-magic-gathering-still-going-strong-not-just-middle-8C11044163
I got a big laugh out of someone else on the site saying that Hasbro bought WotC for the Pokemon license they had and not Magic. Even though Magic is basically fucking printing money.
It's not entirely untrue. Pokemon was a big pile of money. It wasn't going to last long, but it was a lot of money in the short term, and Hasbro made their decision on that short-term big pile of money. But I'm sure they considered the long-term money stream that Magic might represent. In any case, it's a confirmation that the decision wasn't a bad one - from a business point of view.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;687355It's not entirely untrue. Pokemon was a big pile of money. It wasn't going to last long, but it was a lot of money in the short term, and Hasbro made their decision on that short-term big pile of money. But I'm sure they considered the long-term money stream that Magic might represent. In any case, it's a confirmation that the decision wasn't a bad one - from a business point of view.
Even when bought, Magic was the longterm horse of WotC. Pokemon couldn't be expected to carry that far since it wasn't an owned property. There is no way Magic wasn't a major consideration in the purchase.
I'm sure if Internet forums existed in the late 1970s, there'd be similar angsty threads on "theWargamerSite" and "WARG.net" about how the grognard wargamers could retake their FLWSs, that were overrun by those idiot kids blathering on about orcs, polydice and dungeons, and to whom the owners were inexplicably catering.
But that's what happened -- the wargaming stores of the 70s and earlier turned into RPG outlets, by and large, because that's where the money was. To the degree the FLGSs still had product for the old-time wargamers, they were second-class citizens.
I recognize the antagonism towards Those Damn Kids And Their Card Games, but we've no more moral right to exclusive, CCG-free use of the gaming stores than the wargamers before us did.
Quote from: David Johansen;680882I really wish more companies had good point of entry products. It's hard to pitch $200 in GURPS books to a person who's never played an rpg.
Don't tell us! Go and complain to SJ Games. A bunch of us been pointing out that to them for years. As a retailer they will be more apt to listen to you then forum folks. The #1 complaint I get from potential GURPS gamers is the lack of a ready to play book.
Every time they survey retailers. Every time they ask for opinions, I do just that. I say, I don't carry Munchkin, I don't carry Zombie Dice, but I do carry GURPS and you guys are making it bloody hard to sell it.
Mind you, I'm a lunatic fringe retailer on the best of days. There hasn't been a single month in the eighteen I've been open when I didn't wonder if it would be my last. Still I am making progress. It's slow but it's progress. More luck with the kids than the adults.
Really though, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. Even as a kid I knew adults were idiots :D
Quote from: estar;687378Don't tell us! Go and complain to SJ Games. A bunch of us been pointing out that to them for years. As a retailer they will be more apt to listen to you then forum folks. The #1 complaint I get from potential GURPS gamers is the lack of a ready to play book.
Yup. Nearly all my FLGS's have said the same thing in recent years.
GURPS is too much hassle to carry and nobody wants to get into it because the 10'000 books perception.
SJgames just doesn't give a damn.
Quote from: Piestrio;687794Yup. Nearly all my FLGS's have said the same thing in recent years.
GURPS is too much hassle to carry and nobody wants to get into it because the 10'000 books perception.
SJgames just doesn't give a damn.
I am wondering if that is WOTC problem as well. They just don't care about us "clunky role players" as ccg makes piles of fast money.