As far as competing for table space goes, it got to the point where I went out and found a space to rent.  Contacted distributors.  Maxed out my credit card and set up a gaming store devoted to rpgs and miniatures.  No ccgs period.

I wouldn't suggest it to everyone, and the business model is far from perfect.  Indeed I'm hoping to finally stop losing money this fall.  But here's the thing, I'm serious about my hobby and I want to promote it.  The existing local stores lacked the knowledge, the interest, and indeed the desire to do so.

It's mostly an issue of building a comunity and surviving until it becomes sustainable.  You don't have to carry the mainstream products.  People can get those anywhere.  But you do need something that's fairly popular.  For my store it's been Flames of War because the local stores don't carry it.  I've got Kings of War and Army painter so Warhammer fans still have something they can buy at my store but they don't do nearly as well.  I'm waffling on bringing in some basics for Pathfinder and D&D but honestly they didn't sell when I had them at first and I ended up trading them off to one of the other stores for some Traveller and GURPS stock.

I really wish more companies had good point of entry products.  It's hard to pitch $200 in GURPS books to a person who's never played an rpg.

I'd suggest having around $20k to start out anyhow.  That's about my losses so far and it's just starting to turn around.  It's not impossible to do it just very hard.

As for the OP: Don't kid yourselves, ladies and gentlemen. No way in hell.

Quote from: David Johansen;680762So what I'm talking about is a reduced product range and hopefully more sales.  Because what I see, sitting here in my gaming store is that the price point on rpgs has become absurd.  Not so much because the core books are fifty to a hundred dollars but because the material has been stretched so thin between so many books and the rules have 7 become so complex and convoluted.  You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point.  Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.

Yeah, there has to be a point of entry.  The various Basic D&D boxes in the 80s provided this, and was probably the single largest influx of players.  For a relatively low price you could get everything you needed to play the game.  You didn't have to buy three hardcover books, dice, and a bunch of other stuff.  You got it all.

Quote from: David Johansen;680762Anyone producing an entry level rpg where you don't create your own characters should be drummed out of the industry.  I mean how stupid are these designer people?

To an extent - again, remember that Basic D&D barely let you design your characters by "modern standards", and that the vast majority of MMOs offload the heavy character decisions until later in the game deliberately.

Too much character creation crap at the beginning of the game creates a learning cliff for new players.  The goal should be primarily to ease the learning curve and get them playing and having fun as quickly as possible.

Quote from: David Johansen;680882I wouldn't suggest it to everyone, and the business model is far from perfect.  Indeed I'm hoping to finally stop losing money this fall.  But here's the thing, I'm serious about my hobby and I want to promote it.  The existing local stores lacked the knowledge, the interest, and indeed the desire to do so.

Do you live in Washington, by any chance?

Anyway, I think the idea of game taverns or the like is probably the "future" of RPGs at retail.  You've gotta make money, and RPGs in general don't turn over a lot of product (compared to CCGs, etc.).  But people do love to eat and drink while they game, and having a good place to game is gold.

Quote from: David Johansen;680762You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point.  Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.

Personally, I think they need to aim in the $30-$50 range, but the boxed set they produce is the game: Not an introductory set. Not a pay-to-preview product that you toss in the closet when you buy the real version of the game.

That's achievable. You can produce a stripped down core rulebook that jettisons the depth of the advanced options the game has accumulated over the years while still presenting the full breadth of the game. You could hit a $30 price point for that product. Inch it up to $50 if you put it in a box with an introductory adventure, character sheets, and whatnot.

Hackmaster 4e had a novel approach to this problem- requiring official minis and having somewhat random thus collectable consumable player and dm "coupons" in the back of books which allowed one to get away with some antic.  In addition they had a registered system of DMs.  

Renting out tables is an option to generate revenue, it weeds out the riffraff, but maybe turns off too many folks.  

Pay to play scheme with associated discount?   Or get a Bone free deal?

A beer license?

Hotdog spinner (soy dogs can be put on as well)?  

Official store cups with spill proof caps (no other drinks allowed)?

Toilet charge?

George Foreman with frozen burgers?  Microwave with burritos/White Castles?

Frozen Pizza oven?

How much is a POD printer anyhow?  That could possibly be an option- be a destination for POD to save time and shipping.

LARP events?  

Weekly schedule of set games with set table allocation?

Intro night?  

Mini painting night?

First Friday Madness- 24 hours of adventure! on the first friday of the month.  

Licensed day care

Holy fuck! $20,000! In starting your own wtore dedicated to just RPGs and minis? For the love of the hobby?

Pundit, give this man a dispensation to pimp out his store gratis, stat!

Dude, you should totally host a mini-con, maybe even a more frequent event, like Monthly Mayhem, or Quarterly Quests. Be sure to be the prime snack purveyor and avoid the temptation for gross caffeine markups.

Quote from: Teazia;681146Renting out tables is an option to generate revenue, it weeds out the riffraff, but maybe turns off too many folks.  

Bad idea. Garners ill will. Just have a policy where tourney players hold priority, which most people find reasonable.

Pay to play scheme with associated discount?   Or get a Bone free deal?

complicated to implement, likely hard to recover loss as the regulars are going to benefit most, but unlikely vomit forth more sales.

A beer license?

tempting and ingenious. but brings its own headaches, also kills off the underage market.

Hotdog spinner (soy dogs can be put on as well)?  

fire hazard, less fuss the better. keep it frozen and microwavable.

Official store cups with spill proof caps (no other drinks allowed)?

locks up inventory money. OK for play mats, t-shirts, mugs, etc. but a little goes a long way.

Toilet charge?

suicidal levels of ill will.

George Foreman with frozen burgers?  Microwave with burritos/White Castles?

great idea, along with ice cream, etc. and already done successfully elsewhere. pays for itself rapidly. only issue is same with soda and snacks, consistent stocking.

Frozen Pizza oven?

fire hazard, sucks up space and energy. too much for too little return. better just smaller frozen microwavable pizzas, they exist.

How much is a POD printer anyhow?  That could possibly be an option- be a destination for POD to save time and shipping.

that's utterly brilliant. i don't know POD printer costs, but could shift from online PDF everything to players going to FLGS to POD their stuff. Only catch is $ upfront in printer, paper, and demand.

LARP events?

not bad. could start riots from cosplay & LARP community tending to put off war minis and CCGers; something about dressing up threatens masculinity or something. i never got the animus myself, so fuck it, why not?

Weekly schedule of set games with set table allocation?

weekly schedule, good. reserved region for tourneys, good. fixed table allocation throughout the week, very, very bad. humans bicker over the stupidest perceived slights.

Intro night?
Mini painting night?

good and often already done. occasionally translates into sales.

First Friday Madness- 24 hours of adventure! on the first friday of the month.

with Friday Night Magic such a consistent WotC thing, and bringing in such money, absolutely impossible. However a Monthly Madness idea is solid otherwise.

Licensed day care

Not as comically bad as you think. There's a lot of young parents who'd love a cheap night out to socialize while still having their kids safe. Since a lot of FLGS offer raised TVs showing movies (often Simpsons and Futurama type stuff) and offer snacks, it'd be a cheaper night out for young parents than current movie theaters. (Have you seen those ticket and snack prices? Sweet Jayzus!) Would have to be in a separate cry room, though.

Thanks for throwing out some ideas!

I think some recommendations are in order, in terms of "stores you should visit to see how they do it", and around the Twin Cities that's still The Source Comics & Games, which has partnerships with other geek groups in town (notably the gaming club at the Geek Partnership Society) to cross-promote as well as off-load some of the organization hassles.

Quote from: mcbobbo;680769Ditto that.  I've bought and read FAR more modules than I have ever used.  Almost like comic books, really.

Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;681101That's achievable. You can produce a stripped down core rulebook that jettisons the depth of the advanced options the game has accumulated over the years while still presenting the full breadth of the game. You could hit a $30 price point for that product. Inch it up to $50 if you put it in a box with an introductory adventure, character sheets, and whatnot.

Okay, sure, but that doesn't get you repeat purchases anywhere near the scale of a CCG. For a draft, you're looking at $20ish of boosters for each player (I'm out of the loop on CCG pricing), each session. For your RPG box, that's a one-time purchase of $50, for a group of fiveish people... and that's possibly your lot. Adventures, again, that's something only one player needs to buy for the entire group, and unless you're got a crippleware boxed set, players will probably be able to make up their own soon enough (Or just download other people's from the internet).

And whatever game you publich, it's not going to appeal to everyone, and you're going to have quite a lot of customer turnover as people leave your market (Either to other games, or other hobbies). If you're Games Workshop, sure, you can handle this, because all these customers are going to spend a few hundred on an army and associated before leaving the hobby. But you can be in the roleplaying hobby for years and literally never spend any money, easily.

Our hobby is just too awesome in that respect. We're the best value for money, by far, of any entertainment, but that means we don't have the money to tell anyone that. We just aren't good retail products.

Quote from: nobody, yetBut this is what worked in the 80's!

Unless you have a time machine, you're not selling products to the 1980's any more.

Quote from: Teazia;681146Toilet charge?

That is the worst idea ever.

QuoteHow much is a POD printer anyhow?  That could possibly be an option- be a destination for POD to save time and shipping.

That would be cool, but I think you're looking at six figures initial set-up, plus supplies and maintenance.

Quote from: TristramEvans;681200Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.

I could see it if they were modular modules.  Site or event based with hooks leading in and tails leading out.  Rules light, or even 'bring your own rules' type things.

Quote from: TristramEvans;681200Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.

I've long held that this is a viable format for an RPG. Probably not industry changing but viable.

Quote from: Catelf;679922Ok, you might not like this solution, but it is one possible way:
Go as close as you can to miniature-based boardgames as you can.
No, i do not suggest tweaking the rules, even thought that might happen.
I mean this:
* Use Miniatures.
* Use any fitting enough floorplans you have, or make your own.
* Only play the "dungeouncrawl" part in D&D settings, in Cyberpunk and Shadowrun, just the 'run, in other settings, just one mission or similar.
No "how the assignment is accepted" or things afterwards.
* Essentially, make it visual, simpler to understand, and less time-consuming.

I usually do this for when I run demo games so that people can see how the system handles situations in play.

Quote from: Catelf;679922Or, if you really want another idea, compare games with food:
Only one type of food do not work in the long run, the others are also needed. Not just cardgames: boardgames and rpgs is neccesary too, to get a good all-round effect.

Quote from: mcbobbo;680749I would go with a variety argument.  Gamers who get bored stop buying, and if they miss even one season they may quit for good.  RPGs give an alternative that keeps them in the store.

I'm going to refine this approach and go with that and see how it works. The idea that customers might become bored with CCGs and this will help keep them in the store plus the overlap from RPG gamers who play CCGs bringing in some money.

Quote from: David Johansen;680882As far as competing for table space goes, it got to the point where I went out and found a space to rent.  Contacted distributors.  Maxed out my credit card and set up a gaming store devoted to rpgs and miniatures.  No ccgs period.

I wouldn't suggest it to everyone, and the business model is far from perfect.  Indeed I'm hoping to finally stop losing money this fall.  But here's the thing, I'm serious about my hobby and I want to promote it.  The existing local stores lacked the knowledge, the interest, and indeed the desire to do so.

It's mostly an issue of building a comunity and surviving until it becomes sustainable.

I've been giving this approach a lot of thought lately.

I do not think having a store would benefit as much as having a game club where people can come and run RPGs and other games. I wouldn't be looking for a profit, but would be looking to just cover expenses to keep it open and viable.

Quote from: TristramEvans;681200Speaking of, comicbook format modules, cheap and short, that could go in a magazine rack and sport catchy covers would be great. Especially if they used a really light system that could be explained on the inside covers.

I agree, but every time I mention it I get shouted down.

Quote from: VectorSigma;681345I agree, but every time I mention it I get shouted down.

I'm detecting a lack of shouting thus far...