I think if anything, we should want to be less like CCGs and more like collectible books.

In any case, its not a zero-sum game.  The RPG market could take advantage of the current popularity of both CCGs and board games and benefit from this.  Or rather, clever gaming-store owners could.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;680510I think if anything, we should want to be less like CCGs and more like collectible books.

In any case, its not a zero-sum game.  The RPG market could take advantage of the current popularity of both CCGs and board games and benefit from this.  Or rather, clever gaming-store owners could.

RPGPundit

Yeah, I think there is definetly room to take advantage of CCG popularity. I have convinced quite a few Magic players over the years to give D&D a try. In my area though a lot of the CCG players are gamers in general and of those who aren't I haven't really come across any who weren't open to the idea of RPGs.

Use your brain for a moment, Wizard, and release MtG's settings as D&D's. Ravnica'd be a really cool setting, something how I always imagined Planescape to be.

Quote from: Opaopajr;679972The only real big opportunity would be board game space. When they are hot, they are hot. But when they lag they take up lots of shelf space, lock up a lot of inventory money, and can have high entry cost. Board games are getting very expensive lately, but stupidly RPGs are trying to compete in high prices (beautiful production values granted, but not all that necessary).

The only people responsible for that, are gamers. We bought the pretty books. We passed over black-and-white on matte paper for colour on shiny paper, and now we are getting what we collectively asked for.

Anyway, compared to art books or textbooks, game books are still really cheap.

QuoteThe thing is, since most other big box stores barely bother with RPGs at all, where else would there be public exposure, let alone public space to play? Some things really aren't about the money, but have a real cultural impact in the long arc.

When it comes to business, it is all about the money. Always.

Why would a store want to transition it's customers from a high-volume, high-margin product with fantastic turnover to a low-volume, low-margin product with a lot more dependencies (ie, without corebooks, you're not going to sell many supplements) and slower turnover? Sure, a given store owner may want to push RPG's because he likes them (I would), but he'd be a fool to let them dominate over more profitable items.

The argument has to be based on environment.  Creating an environment that encourages RPG gamers to gather frequently can create all kinds of additional purchases (assuming a stocked section).  When going to game, you might pick up more dice, minis, or other accessories.  The more time and gamers that come in, the more incidental sales will increase.  

Unfortunately, a number of stores have had problems with either the quality of gamer hanging out or said gamer actually running sales away.  Telling people not to buy a book at the store they're physically in because it's half the price on Amazon, for instance!  

As a fellow Knoxville resident, what's your thought, here?  Trying to get C&M Games in the mall to offer table space for RPGs?

Here is how we met the need in my city. Our FLGS is next to some restaurants mostly family run sandwich shops. We approached one owner and asked for some play space. He was good enough to give us a try. We buy snacks and soda from him and clean up after ourselves. Space can be had we just have to be creative about finding it and support the shops that give us space.

Exactly why I say FLGS are now essentially a service industry in the age of internet shopping. Outside of CCGs and minis there's no room for the FLGS owner to shift their shelf space; sadly business needs in a FLGS dictates a zero sum model.

But that doesn't mean it's zero sum everywhere. Big box stores are a real opportunity for evergreen formats. FLGS can, and do, fill slow nights with PFS and other organized play (customer base can't support CCG tourneys every day, and Friday Night Magic and Draft sessions can only go so far in a week economically). Customers learning to order RPGs through their FLGS is also a place for expansion.

Asses in seats (that buy stuff) support service industries, so a community response where gamers are good customers helps. Maintains visibility be it bar or FLGS. Outside of libraries though I cannot think of any non-commercial public space.

But yeah, competing for shelf space is doubtful at best. Just having a presence at this point is impressive.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;680546As a fellow Knoxville resident, what's your thought, here?  Trying to get C&M Games in the mall to offer table space for RPGs?

I'm trying to figure out some good arguements and approaches to use there and at other stores. Unfortunately, C&M Games has already let it be known that while RPGs can be played in their space, they can be kicked out by any CCG gamers who decide to camp out and think you are sitting in their seat.

I should also point out that I am not asking for shelf space for product as much as I am asking for play space at their tables.

Yeah, can't help there. Gotta find a place with more play space, get in good with the owner and workers, find the slow hours, or consume epic shares of snacks.

Heck, one FLGS near me has dumped minis and ghettoized CCGers because PC game time rental eclipses even them. Sure they run some organized play like Encounters, but they are even more dumped into the back rooms than the CCG players. FPSs, RTSs, and MMOs bring in way more consistent money, and urban rents place a lot of pressure.

Quote from: jeff37923;680688I'm trying to figure out some good arguements and approaches to use there and at other stores. Unfortunately, C&M Games has already let it be known that while RPGs can be played in their space, they can be kicked out by any CCG gamers who decide to camp out and think you are sitting in their seat.

That sounds kinda like a "if you don't really want be to be here, fine, I'll stop coming" issue. If they've really been that blunt, you're not really welcome as RPG customers.

I would go with a variety argument.  Gamers who get bored stop buying, and if they miss even one season they may quit for good.  RPGs give an alternative that keeps them in the store.

I think rpgs need to shift their product focus to solid point of entry offerings.  Once you grab the customer you can sell them all kinds of on-line stuff but you need stores to draw in new customers.

I've been saying D&D needs a high toy value, very complete starter set for a long time.  However, I think the very complete might matter more than the toy value.   Because rpgs can beat the shit out of collectable card games and miniatures games in the value department.  As far as continuing sales go, I think a magazine, yes a print magazine, would be a great tool.  But only if you make the magazine the format for all new material so there's nowhere else to go for it and keep the price low enough that it's not a no-brainer to download a scan and print it.

So what I'm talking about is a reduced product range and hopefully more sales.  Because what I see, sitting here in my gaming store is that the price point on rpgs has become absurd.  Not so much because the core books are fifty to a hundred dollars but because the material has been stretched so thin between so many books and the rules have 7 become so complex and convoluted.  You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point.  Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.

Anyone producing an entry level rpg where you don't create your own characters should be drummed out of the industry.  I mean how stupid are these designer people?

I've suggested something similar for GURPS for years.

Quote from: David Johansen;680762I think rpgs need to shift their product focus to solid point of entry offerings.  Once you grab the customer you can sell them all kinds of on-line stuff but you need stores to draw in new customers.

I've been saying D&D needs a high toy value, very complete starter set for a long time.  However, I think the very complete might matter more than the toy value.   Because rpgs can beat the shit out of collectable card games and miniatures games in the value department.  As far as continuing sales go, I think a magazine, yes a print magazine, would be a great tool.  But only if you make the magazine the format for all new material so there's nowhere else to go for it and keep the price low enough that it's not a no-brainer to download a scan and print it.

So what I'm talking about is a reduced product range and hopefully more sales.  Because what I see, sitting here in my gaming store is that the price point on rpgs has become absurd.  Not so much because the core books are fifty to a hundred dollars but because the material has been stretched so thin between so many books and the rules have 7 become so complex and convoluted.  You can get your first Magic fix for $15. There should be a D&D entry point at that price point.  Basic Dungeons & Dragons $15 with levels 1-3, an adventure, a pull out map, and an overleaf of fold up figures.

Anyone producing an entry level rpg where you don't create your own characters should be drummed out of the industry.  I mean how stupid are these designer people?

I've suggested something similar for GURPS for years.

Also what happened to modules?

Not to be all "back in my day" but back when I started playing I'd say the bulk of my purchases at my FLGS were adventure modules. They provided a fairly cheap 'fix' that I could look forward to and buy every once in a while.

Quote from: Piestrio;680767Also what happened to modules?

Not to be all "back in my day" but back when I started playing I'd say the bulk of my purchases at my FLGS were adventure modules. They provided a fairly cheap 'fix' that I could look forward to and buy every once in a while.

Ditto that.  I've bought and read FAR more modules than I have ever used.  Almost like comic books, really.