My first comparison.  Others are welcome to participate.

Wild Magic Sorcerer, Wild Magic Surge:

Once per turn, after casting a spell of level 1 or higher....

2014 - The DM may have you roll a d20.  If you roll a 1.... roll on the Wild Magic Surge Table.

2024 - You may roll 1d20.  If you roll a 20.... roll on the Wild Magic Surge Table.

Not attempting direct quotes, but still very accurate. 

The DM may, vs You may.
(Not shall, but may.)
(Not the DM's choice, anymore.)
If you roll a 1, vs if you roll a 20.

Just a juggling of specifics, or intentionally taking the decision away from the DM?  Obviously, the latter.

Changing roll a 1 to roll a 20, is the RPG equivalent of "... and that's a good thing."

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 21, 2024, 02:16:55 AMJust a juggling of specifics, or intentionally taking the decision away from the DM?  Obviously, the latter.

I approve of this change: For a player character's signature ability, go ahead and put it in the player's hands.

A minor change, but a telling one as Crawford and co did say on video that the intent of Fake 5e was that the DM is there to serve the players.

One can only guess how bad the DMG will be.

Quote from: Omega on October 22, 2024, 05:23:02 AMA minor change, but a telling one as Crawford and co did say on video that the intent of Fake 5e was that the DM is there to serve the players.

One can only guess how bad the DMG will be.

Given how awful the 2014 one was, I can't imagine the 2024 one being worse. It might end up being better by accident.

That said, Crawford isn't entirely wrong. You're akin to a cook and waiter. Unless the adventures you're preparing and delivering are ones your players are interested in, you're not going to have players for long and not everyplace has enough players around to be both uncompromising on your vision and have enough players to run something.

That doesn't mean you have to start preparing Mexican at your fine Italian eatery, but it does mean you need to accommodate reasonable requests  (ex. no cheese on the salad) and provide the best experience you can for your customers/players and that IS a form of service and your reason for being the GM.

Personally, I Like that change because I have enough to deal with behind the screen to be tracking every player's special abilities. If a PC has an ability it should be their responsibility to track it and remember to use it, not mine.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 22, 2024, 08:19:42 AM

Quote from: Omega on October 22, 2024, 05:23:02 AMA minor change, but a telling one as Crawford and co did say on video that the intent of Fake 5e was that the DM is there to serve the players.

One can only guess how bad the DMG will be.

Given how awful the 2014 one was, I can't imagine the 2024 one being worse. It might end up being better by accident.

That said, Crawford isn't entirely wrong. You're akin to a cook and waiter. Unless the adventures you're preparing and delivering are ones your players are interested in, you're not going to have players for long and not everyplace has enough players around to be both uncompromising on your vision and have enough players to run something.

That doesn't mean you have to start preparing Mexican at your fine Italian eatery, but it does mean you need to accommodate reasonable requests  (ex. no cheese on the salad) and provide the best experience you can for your customers/players and that IS a form of service and your reason for being the GM.

Personally, I Like that change because I have enough to deal with behind the screen to be tracking every player's special abilities. If a PC has an ability it should be their responsibility to track it and remember to use it, not mine.

Agree on both counts. It's always confusing to me when people go out of their way to say the DM isn't there to make the game fun for the players. I mean, what else are we doing here if not trying to have a fun game?

Also agree that it's a good design decision to put tracking of the players' abilities on the players themselves where possible. If you're doing this style of game where each class has a bunch of specific powers I think it's just about the only way to make the game run smoothly at the table.

Like Noisms says, you are not responsible for your players' orgasm. https://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-are-responsible-for-your-own-orgasm.html

On this particular WMS issue, both versions suck. It should be simply "Roll for Wild Magic search" with no "GM decides" or "player decides".

Wild Magic Surge is a potential blessing or curse, at any given moment.  It can be great, or it can be awful.  It's not necessarily, something a caster wants to take a chance upon.

Well previously, the DM could force a roll of fate upon a given situation.  Now the player can just sidestep that altogether, anytime they want to.

It opens the door to it becoming irrelevant.  It was supposed to be a big part, of who that character is.  Now not only does the rule say "may", it says the "player may".  The DM can't stop the player from ignoring it altogether.

It's like having smart, friendly orcs who enjoy walks on the beach.  What is going on here?

The bigger issue here is that wild magic surge is complete and utter garbage.

I understand some of you had to walk to school uphill both ways in shoes that didn't fit, and that's a cool story. Meanwhile, no other class has to play Russian Roulette just to use their core class feature. So yes, the player gets to completely ignore wild magic surge and never roll the table. That's perfectly reasonable.

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 03:20:51 PMThe bigger issue here is that wild magic surge is complete and utter garbage.

I understand some of you had to walk to school uphill both ways in shoes that didn't fit, and that's a cool story. Meanwhile, no other class has to play Russian Roulette just to use their core class feature. So yes, the player gets to completely ignore wild magic surge and never roll the table. That's perfectly reasonable.

The player chose to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer.  Now they don't want any consequences, for making that choice?

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 22, 2024, 03:40:46 PM

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 03:20:51 PMThe bigger issue here is that wild magic surge is complete and utter garbage.

I understand some of you had to walk to school uphill both ways in shoes that didn't fit, and that's a cool story. Meanwhile, no other class has to play Russian Roulette just to use their core class feature. So yes, the player gets to completely ignore wild magic surge and never roll the table. That's perfectly reasonable.

The player chose to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer.  Now they don't want any consequences, for making that choice?

Are we talking about playing D&D or raw-dogging a hooker?

So, one version has the DM making the decision.

The other version has the Player making the same decision.

This is what they call "compatible".

I'd certainly enjoy watching that compatibility play out at the table.

Quote from: Corolinth on October 22, 2024, 03:20:51 PMThe bigger issue here is that wild magic surge is complete and utter garbage.

I understand some of you had to walk to school uphill both ways in shoes that didn't fit, and that's a cool story. Meanwhile, no other class has to play Russian Roulette just to use their core class feature. So yes, the player gets to completely ignore wild magic surge and never roll the table. That's perfectly reasonable.

Not really.  The point of wild magic is that you randomly get some strong results but have to put up with a lot of randomness, even when you'd rather not have it.  The class is designed for people that want to play like that.  If you want something more controllable, play something else.  This change takes away that playstyle from the people that want it.

The plusses and minuses balance, assuming the system is designed right.  If you eliminate the minuses without altering the plusses you get a much stronger character.  So if this is the only change, they did something wrong.

I see this as part of a long term trend.  Up to 2E magic users were glass cannons.  Starting at 3E they're all cannon and no glass.  A lot of other classes have been losing their signature weaknesses along the way.  This plays into the power fantasy some folks play for, but it makes the game less interesting.  Complementary strengths and weaknesses between characters in a party encourage teamwork and provide opportunities for more interesting tactical situations.

My son plays a Wild Magic Sorcerer and has to beg the GM to be allowed to roll for Surge. He played a WSM because he wanted weird shit to happen. It should be a check every time.

Quote from: S'mon on October 22, 2024, 06:17:00 PMMy son plays a Wild Magic Sorcerer and has to beg the GM to be allowed to roll for Surge. He played a WSM because he wanted weird shit to happen. It should be a check every time.

It's their unique feature.