I'm kicking around a campaign where Cirith Ungol and The Demonweb are connected.  Off the top of my head, Lloth (my preferred spelling - I love it that her name in Spanish would be pronounced "Yoth" like the Lovecraftian underground city) would be the mistress and Shelob would be her lieutenant - if Shelob would accept being a servitor at all.  But what do you think?

Demesne wise, Lloth has it all over Shelob.  Shelob has a small cave system, Lloth has a whole demi plane. 

Followers?  Lloth has a horde of children and weird creatures at her call.  Shelob has a few kids she hasn't eaten - yet.

But personal power wise?  I suck at conversion, but Shelob is a pretty big Big Bad in MERP. She is nothing like "just a giant spider:"  She truly is "An evil thing in spider form."

Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant who's whole realm was larger than Mordor and full of spiders.  It's hard to say how intelligent Shelob really is, not wanting to eat Gollum is probably just good sense.

Quote from: David Johansen on February 25, 2024, 09:33:07 PM
Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant who's whole realm was larger than Mordor and full of spiders.  It's hard to say how intelligent Shelob really is, not wanting to eat Gollum is probably just good sense.

Yeah. Probably at least as smart as an ape - understands the concept of trade and mutual satisfaction.  I think she has a sort of vampire sickness:  FEED ME! Not interested in lesser priorities! So there isn't much bargaining room.

Yeah Ungoliant is the obvious elephant in the room if you're trying to respect the canons of both universes. I suppose you could say that Ungoliant actually was Lloth, since the Silmarillion never really comes out and explains where Ungoliant came from. I have no idea how old Lloth is supposed to be, but you could always handwave any timeline discrepancies with interdimensional logic. That potentially gives you some reasoning for why Lloth suddenly decides to interfere in Middle Earth. Maybe she's still after the Silmarils and doesn't know they're long gone (unless you like the theory that the Arkenstone is a lost Silmaril). Or maybe she's out for revenge on Sauron for helping Morgoth kick her ass two ages ago.

Power-scaling between the two universes is going to be weird. First Age Middle Earth I read as being handily above the power-scale of D&D. You've got to imagine Fingolfin would be like a 25th level character in D&D parlance, given that he can go toe to toe with Morgoth. Hell, the Noldor go up against an army including multiple dragons and Balrogs and don't get completely bodied. Meanwhile Third Age characters look much weaker than D&D ones, but might not be. I mean, how many hit die would you give the Witch King? And yet Gandalf is implied to be stronger than him, and Merry and Eowyn 2 v. 1 him successfully. Even Shelob gets taken out by a hobbit gardener with a magic lamp and a +1 shortsword.

Lolth is definitely hotter from the waist up than Shelob.

Shelob was a monster, the child of Ungoliant. Ungoliant was one of the renegade Maiar who served Melkor. So Ungoliant is a closer comparison. Whereas Lloth was some sort of renegade elf or elven goddess, Ungoliant was a mythological giant, an evil spirit in spider form.

Shelob is notable in her own right; she may have given birth to one or more races of intelligent, giant spiders (like the ones in The Hobbit). However, she is not on the same level as Lloth, not even a demon lord or a demigod. She's a legendary monster more on the level of the hydra, Cerberus, etc.

In The Hobbit movie I liked that Bilbo could only understand the spiders of Mirkwood when he had the ring on.  It sticks with me because there wasn't much else to like.  Perhaps, Frodo could have talked to Shelob if he wore the ring.  Not sure what they'd talk about beyond, "please don't eat me", "terribly sorry but I think I will do so regardless of your wishes."

I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation.  Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.

Quote from: David Johansen on February 25, 2024, 09:33:07 PM
Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant who's whole realm was larger than Mordor and full of spiders.  It's hard to say how intelligent Shelob really is, not wanting to eat Gollum is probably just good sense.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 25, 2024, 09:59:25 PM
Yeah Ungoliant is the obvious elephant in the room if you're trying to respect the canons of both universes. I suppose you could say that Ungoliant actually was Lloth, since the Silmarillion never really comes out and explains where Ungoliant came from. I have no idea how old Lloth is supposed to be, but you could always handwave any timeline discrepancies with interdimensional logic. That potentially gives you some reasoning for why Lloth suddenly decides to interfere in Middle Earth. Maybe she's still after the Silmarils and doesn't know they're long gone (unless you like the theory that the Arkenstone is a lost Silmaril). Or maybe she's out for revenge on Sauron for helping Morgoth kick her ass two ages ago.

Power-scaling between the two universes is going to be weird. First Age Middle Earth I read as being handily above the power-scale of D&D. You've got to imagine Fingolfin would be like a 25th level character in D&D parlance, given that he can go toe to toe with Morgoth. Hell, the Noldor go up against an army including multiple dragons and Balrogs and don't get completely bodied. Meanwhile Third Age characters look much weaker than D&D ones, but might not be. I mean, how many hit die would you give the Witch King? And yet Gandalf is implied to be stronger than him, and Merry and Eowyn 2 v. 1 him successfully. Even Shelob gets taken out by a hobbit gardener with a magic lamp and a +1 shortsword.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 26, 2024, 01:19:58 AM
Shelob was a monster, the child of Ungoliant. Ungoliant was one of the renegade Maiar who served Melkor. So Ungoliant is a closer comparison. Whereas Lloth was some sort of renegade elf or elven goddess, Ungoliant was a mythological giant, an evil spirit in spider form.

Shelob is notable in her own right; she may have given birth to one or more races of intelligent, giant spiders (like the ones in The Hobbit). However, she is not on the same level as Lloth, not even a demon lord or a demigod. She's a legendary monster more on the level of the hydra, Cerberus, etc.

Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
In The Hobbit movie I liked that Bilbo could only understand the spiders of Mirkwood when he had the ring on.  It sticks with me because there wasn't much else to like.  Perhaps, Frodo could have talked to Shelob if he wore the ring.  Not sure what they'd talk about beyond, "please don't eat me", "terribly sorry but I think I will do so regardless of your wishes."

I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation.  Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.

My problem with Lloth being Ungoliant is that I can't see the D20 character kicking around D20 Asmodeus 'til he screams for a batch of Balrogs to come save him.

OTOH there's a RQ Spidergoddess that might fit the bill better - or even Atlach Nacha if I go in that direction.

And yes, I believe Ungoliant is a Mystery (capital M) like Bombadil:  Nobody knows where they came from, and The Song doesn't say.

Even Morgoth was afraid of her and that's saying something.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 26, 2024, 01:19:58 AMUngoliant was one of the renegade Maiar who served Melkor.

Nope. She was not a Maia, nor one of the Ainu. She was like Tom Bombadil, she existed in Eä/Arda before the Ainur descended to it from The Timeless Halls. The most likely theory is that Ungoliant and The Nameless Things are a manifestation of The Discord of Melkor. Bombadil, is their inverse, being The Music of the Ainur given form and spirit.

Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation.  Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.

I thought that was (pretty close to) the cannonical explanation. With the caveat that Tolkien wanted to point out that if so, there was no one who could be sure and confirm it.

Quote"It is not told from whence she came; from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World."

-The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion

---

Shelob, being a descendant of Ungoliant, was horrible and scary, but IMO nowhere near Lolth in power or even scope. She'd be Yet Another Spider Minion, and probably not even one that stands out among Lolth's more powerful servants.

Lolth was almost certainly based on Jorogumo, which is Japanese myth. 

An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 29, 2024, 06:26:58 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation.  Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.

I thought that was (pretty close to) the cannonical explanation. With the caveat that Tolkien wanted to point out that if so, there was no one who could be sure and confirm it.

Quote"It is not told from whence she came; from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World."

-The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion

---

Shelob, being a descendant of Ungoliant, was horrible and scary, but IMO nowhere near Lolth in power or even scope. She'd be Yet Another Spider Minion, and probably not even one that stands out among Lolth's more powerful servants.

This makes Ungoliant seem like a Lovecraftian Horror. I wonder if Tolkien had read some Lovecraft, does anyone with more knowledge than I know?

Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.

I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.

If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.