I'm kicking around a campaign where Cirith Ungol and The Demonweb are connected. Off the top of my head, Lloth (my preferred spelling - I love it that her name in Spanish would be pronounced "Yoth" like the Lovecraftian underground city) would be the mistress and Shelob would be her lieutenant - if Shelob would accept being a servitor at all. But what do you think?
Demesne wise, Lloth has it all over Shelob. Shelob has a small cave system, Lloth has a whole demi plane.
Followers? Lloth has a horde of children and weird creatures at her call. Shelob has a few kids she hasn't eaten - yet.
But personal power wise? I suck at conversion, but Shelob is a pretty big Big Bad in MERP. She is nothing like "just a giant spider:" She truly is "An evil thing in spider form."
Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant who's whole realm was larger than Mordor and full of spiders. It's hard to say how intelligent Shelob really is, not wanting to eat Gollum is probably just good sense.
Quote from: David Johansen on February 25, 2024, 09:33:07 PM
Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant who's whole realm was larger than Mordor and full of spiders. It's hard to say how intelligent Shelob really is, not wanting to eat Gollum is probably just good sense.
Yeah. Probably at least as smart as an ape - understands the concept of trade and mutual satisfaction. I think she has a sort of vampire sickness: FEED ME! Not interested in lesser priorities! So there isn't much bargaining room.
Yeah Ungoliant is the obvious elephant in the room if you're trying to respect the canons of both universes. I suppose you could say that Ungoliant actually was Lloth, since the Silmarillion never really comes out and explains where Ungoliant came from. I have no idea how old Lloth is supposed to be, but you could always handwave any timeline discrepancies with interdimensional logic. That potentially gives you some reasoning for why Lloth suddenly decides to interfere in Middle Earth. Maybe she's still after the Silmarils and doesn't know they're long gone (unless you like the theory that the Arkenstone is a lost Silmaril). Or maybe she's out for revenge on Sauron for helping Morgoth kick her ass two ages ago.
Power-scaling between the two universes is going to be weird. First Age Middle Earth I read as being handily above the power-scale of D&D. You've got to imagine Fingolfin would be like a 25th level character in D&D parlance, given that he can go toe to toe with Morgoth. Hell, the Noldor go up against an army including multiple dragons and Balrogs and don't get completely bodied. Meanwhile Third Age characters look much weaker than D&D ones, but might not be. I mean, how many hit die would you give the Witch King? And yet Gandalf is implied to be stronger than him, and Merry and Eowyn 2 v. 1 him successfully. Even Shelob gets taken out by a hobbit gardener with a magic lamp and a +1 shortsword.
Lolth is definitely hotter from the waist up than Shelob.
Shelob was a monster, the child of Ungoliant. Ungoliant was one of the renegade Maiar who served Melkor. So Ungoliant is a closer comparison. Whereas Lloth was some sort of renegade elf or elven goddess, Ungoliant was a mythological giant, an evil spirit in spider form.
Shelob is notable in her own right; she may have given birth to one or more races of intelligent, giant spiders (like the ones in The Hobbit). However, she is not on the same level as Lloth, not even a demon lord or a demigod. She's a legendary monster more on the level of the hydra, Cerberus, etc.
In The Hobbit movie I liked that Bilbo could only understand the spiders of Mirkwood when he had the ring on. It sticks with me because there wasn't much else to like. Perhaps, Frodo could have talked to Shelob if he wore the ring. Not sure what they'd talk about beyond, "please don't eat me", "terribly sorry but I think I will do so regardless of your wishes."
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation. Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.
Quote from: David Johansen on February 25, 2024, 09:33:07 PM
Shelob is the last child of Ungoliant who's whole realm was larger than Mordor and full of spiders. It's hard to say how intelligent Shelob really is, not wanting to eat Gollum is probably just good sense.
Quote from: ForgottenF on February 25, 2024, 09:59:25 PM
Yeah Ungoliant is the obvious elephant in the room if you're trying to respect the canons of both universes. I suppose you could say that Ungoliant actually was Lloth, since the Silmarillion never really comes out and explains where Ungoliant came from. I have no idea how old Lloth is supposed to be, but you could always handwave any timeline discrepancies with interdimensional logic. That potentially gives you some reasoning for why Lloth suddenly decides to interfere in Middle Earth. Maybe she's still after the Silmarils and doesn't know they're long gone (unless you like the theory that the Arkenstone is a lost Silmaril). Or maybe she's out for revenge on Sauron for helping Morgoth kick her ass two ages ago.
Power-scaling between the two universes is going to be weird. First Age Middle Earth I read as being handily above the power-scale of D&D. You've got to imagine Fingolfin would be like a 25th level character in D&D parlance, given that he can go toe to toe with Morgoth. Hell, the Noldor go up against an army including multiple dragons and Balrogs and don't get completely bodied. Meanwhile Third Age characters look much weaker than D&D ones, but might not be. I mean, how many hit die would you give the Witch King? And yet Gandalf is implied to be stronger than him, and Merry and Eowyn 2 v. 1 him successfully. Even Shelob gets taken out by a hobbit gardener with a magic lamp and a +1 shortsword.
Quote from: pawsplay on February 26, 2024, 01:19:58 AM
Shelob was a monster, the child of Ungoliant. Ungoliant was one of the renegade Maiar who served Melkor. So Ungoliant is a closer comparison. Whereas Lloth was some sort of renegade elf or elven goddess, Ungoliant was a mythological giant, an evil spirit in spider form.
Shelob is notable in her own right; she may have given birth to one or more races of intelligent, giant spiders (like the ones in The Hobbit). However, she is not on the same level as Lloth, not even a demon lord or a demigod. She's a legendary monster more on the level of the hydra, Cerberus, etc.
Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
In The Hobbit movie I liked that Bilbo could only understand the spiders of Mirkwood when he had the ring on. It sticks with me because there wasn't much else to like. Perhaps, Frodo could have talked to Shelob if he wore the ring. Not sure what they'd talk about beyond, "please don't eat me", "terribly sorry but I think I will do so regardless of your wishes."
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation. Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.
My problem with Lloth being Ungoliant is that I can't see the D20 character kicking around D20 Asmodeus 'til he screams for a batch of Balrogs to come save him. :D
OTOH there's a RQ Spidergoddess that might fit the bill better - or even Atlach Nacha if I go in that direction.
And yes, I believe Ungoliant is a Mystery (capital M) like Bombadil: Nobody knows where they came from, and The Song doesn't say.
Even Morgoth was afraid of her and that's saying something.
Quote from: pawsplay on February 26, 2024, 01:19:58 AMUngoliant was one of the renegade Maiar who served Melkor.
Nope. She was not a Maia, nor one of the Ainu. She was like Tom Bombadil, she existed in Eä/Arda before the Ainur descended to it from The Timeless Halls. The most likely theory is that Ungoliant and The Nameless Things are a manifestation of The Discord of Melkor. Bombadil, is their inverse, being The Music of the Ainur given form and spirit.
Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation. Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.
I thought that was (pretty close to) the cannonical explanation. With the caveat that Tolkien wanted to point out that if so, there was no one who could be sure and confirm it.
Quote"It is not told from whence she came; from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World."
-The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion
---
Shelob, being a descendant of Ungoliant, was horrible and scary, but IMO nowhere near Lolth in power or even scope. She'd be Yet Another Spider Minion, and probably not even one that stands out among Lolth's more powerful servants.
Lolth was almost certainly based on Jorogumo, which is Japanese myth.
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 29, 2024, 06:26:58 AM
Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation. Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.
I thought that was (pretty close to) the cannonical explanation. With the caveat that Tolkien wanted to point out that if so, there was no one who could be sure and confirm it.
Quote"It is not told from whence she came; from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World."
-The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion
---
Shelob, being a descendant of Ungoliant, was horrible and scary, but IMO nowhere near Lolth in power or even scope. She'd be Yet Another Spider Minion, and probably not even one that stands out among Lolth's more powerful servants.
This makes Ungoliant seem like a Lovecraftian Horror. I wonder if Tolkien had read some Lovecraft, does anyone with more knowledge than I know?
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.
I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.
If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 04, 2024, 04:07:17 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 29, 2024, 06:26:58 AM
Quote from: David Johansen on February 26, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I know it's not cannonical but I've always liked the idea of Ungoliant being something from the darkness outside of creation. Like that there are shadowy things beyond Ivultar's realm, lurking and hungering in the darkness.
I thought that was (pretty close to) the cannonical explanation. With the caveat that Tolkien wanted to point out that if so, there was no one who could be sure and confirm it.
Quote"It is not told from whence she came; from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World."
-The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion
---
Shelob, being a descendant of Ungoliant, was horrible and scary, but IMO nowhere near Lolth in power or even scope. She'd be Yet Another Spider Minion, and probably not even one that stands out among Lolth's more powerful servants.
This makes Ungoliant seem like a Lovecraftian Horror. I wonder if Tolkien had read some Lovecraft, does anyone with more knowledge than I know?
People have noticed some "Eldritch Horror" tones here and there. Remember Gandalf's description of what he found in the under deeps while chasing the balrog.
Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 05:15:38 PM
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.
I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.
If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.
To me it depends on which Lloth we are talking about. I think she took some level creep over the decades. When first introduced, she seemed like some petty lord of her own demirealm, not much more of a god than Strahd of Ravenloft. Then she was an arch-demon and the Demonweb Pits was one of the abysses. Then I lost interest in D20 lore - but I'm guessing she became the Goddess of the Dark Elves by the time Forgotten Realms became central.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 11:26:06 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 05:15:38 PM
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.
I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.
If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.
To me it depends on which Lloth we are talking about. I think she took some level creep over the decades. When first introduced, she seemed like some petty lord of her own demirealm, not much more of a god than Strahd of Ravenloft. Then she was an arch-demon and the Demonweb Pits was one of the abysses. Then I lost interest in D20 lore - but I'm guessing she became the Goddess of the Dark Elves by the time Forgotten Realms became central.
Yeah but even then from Fiend Folio era she was more powerful in stats than I'd give for Shelob.
I'm perfectly fine with synctretizing LotR with D&D lore for your game. I do whacky shit like that all time. You should see my supers-games! My last campaign had my players going to Japan where some of their team was in a Stark-modified Sentinel to fight Ghidorah and G-Force from Battle of the Planets showed up to help, alongside some Kamen Riders. Later they fought against the Hand Ninja, and Bruce Wayne was in town... and Bats showed up.
Heh, I'm just saying that nothing is off the table - I just find that if I statted Shelob, she'd definitely be more than a giant-spider, but definitely not Lolth-level. Remember in in 1e, Lolth *still* had divine powers outside of her stat-bloc in Fiend Folio, as indicated by the Deities and Demigods book. That alone would have made her radically more powerful than Shelob, despite Shelob's ridiculously awesome pedigree.
Quote from: tenbones on March 05, 2024, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 11:26:06 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 05:15:38 PM
Comparing Shelob and Lolth because they both happen to have arachnid trappings, free of any other pertinent context... you know... like Lolth being a full blown God, seems, dissonant? I mean I get it, they're spider-looking beings etc. but that's about as close as it gets.
I mean you're closer to comparing Shelob with Spiderman. Their powerlevels and contextual impact on their settings are probably more correct.
If you're implying Shelob is/could be a divine child of Lolth? Sure. Why not. In terms of relative power? I don't think they're in the same league by any stretch.
To me it depends on which Lloth we are talking about. I think she took some level creep over the decades. When first introduced, she seemed like some petty lord of her own demirealm, not much more of a god than Strahd of Ravenloft. Then she was an arch-demon and the Demonweb Pits was one of the abysses. Then I lost interest in D20 lore - but I'm guessing she became the Goddess of the Dark Elves by the time Forgotten Realms became central.
Yeah but even then from Fiend Folio era she was more powerful in stats than I'd give for Shelob.
I'm perfectly fine with synctretizing LotR with D&D lore for your game. I do whacky shit like that all time. You should see my supers-games! My last campaign had my players going to Japan where some of their team was in a Stark-modified Sentinel to fight Ghidorah and G-Force from Battle of the Planets showed up to help, alongside some Kamen Riders. Later they fought against the Hand Ninja, and Bruce Wayne was in town... and Bats showed up.
Heh, I'm just saying that nothing is off the table - I just find that if I statted Shelob, she'd definitely be more than a giant-spider, but definitely not Lolth-level. Remember in in 1e, Lolth *still* had divine powers outside of her stat-bloc in Fiend Folio, as indicated by the Deities and Demigods book. That alone would have made her radically more powerful than Shelob, despite Shelob's ridiculously awesome pedigree.
LOL. That sounds like my kind of campaign!
I just spent the last half hour scouring the internet for a hilarious graphic of Princess breaking the fourth wall, hiking her skirt to her waist, and saying "There! Satisfied? Can we get on with the story now?" Couldn't find it of course. After Powergirl's boob window, one of the most iconic images in graphicsdom. ;)
Yeah, what I'm looking at is a fantasy cosmic superheroic campaign where Lloth and Shelob are both minions to a
real Big Bad. Craigspider From Dragon Pass would be just another flunky. Possible bosses would be Mallia from Cults of Terror or Atlach Nacha. Don't have Mallia's stats handy: But Atlach Nacha, even as a CA Smith god, doesn't seem to be all that much of a Final Boss.
EDIT: Ungoliant doesn't work as a big bad: She's just Shelob on steroids - an avatar of insatiable hunger.
I think we're all in agreement. Status wise, Lloth towers over Shelob. In physical prowess, it's closer, but Lloth could beat Shelob with effort in an arena match. Shelob's main powers are terror and intimidation. Lloth: "Girl, please! I've seen scarier stuff on Simpson's Treehouse of Horror!"
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 04, 2024, 03:52:55 PM
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....
I like that the art style there kind of matches up with the Tolkien animated films from back in the day.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:23:06 PM
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?
Had to google that one. At least now I know where the inspiration for this lovely lady came from. Fun bit of trivia that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NnyxGp9/Quelaag-concept-art.webp)
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:19:25 PMEDIT: Ungoliant doesn't work as a big bad: She's just Shelob on steroids - an avatar of insatiable hunger.
I disagree for the simple fact that Ungoliant's ability to spread 'Unlight' is a horrifyingly over-powered one. Granted, Morgoth had stupidly spread almost all of his essence into tainting Arda by that point, but Ungoliant just got more powerful the more she consumed. Also granted, she fled from the (dozen?) Balrogs that attacked her with their flaming whips....
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 06, 2024, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:19:25 PMEDIT: Ungoliant doesn't work as a big bad: She's just Shelob on steroids - an avatar of insatiable hunger.
I disagree for the simple fact that Ungoliant's ability to spread 'Unlight' is a horrifyingly over-powered one. Granted, Morgoth had stupidly spread almost all of his essence into tainting Arda by that point, but Ungoliant just got more powerful the more she consumed. Also granted, she fled from the (dozen?) Balrogs that attacked her with their flaming whips....
Greetings!
Yeah, that was the story part I was thinking of, with Morgoth, Ungoliant, and a *bunch* of Balrogs.
Ungoliant was *far more* than just a jacked up, giant spider. MORGOTH feared her, and needed help from the Balrogs to drive her away.
I think those stories frame and describe a creature that is impossibly dark, evil, insatiably hungry, and staggeringly powerful.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Ungoliant was feared by the Maiar and the other powers, but was not so powerful she could face several of them at a time with complete impunity. She was some kind of primal being, and probably was resistant in some ways to the powers of the Valar and Maiar, but ultimately, was more monster than goddess. In role and personality I would say she's closer to Apep or Jörmungandr; she's no god, but the gods don't want to mess with her, in much the same way you wouldn't want to confront a loose and angry large dog in your yard.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 06, 2024, 09:22:21 AM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 04, 2024, 03:52:55 PM
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....
I like that the art style there kind of matches up with the Tolkien animated films from back in the day.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:23:06 PM
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?
Had to google that one. At least now I know where the inspiration for this lovely lady came from. Fun bit of trivia that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NnyxGp9/Quelaag-concept-art.webp)
LOL. Beautiful image. Yeah, Runequest canon is tremendously dense and intertwined. It's hard to figure out what is being talked about. At least in Tolkien, you can just look up a certain year and see "Oh, that's when that happened!" Why Cragspider is considered weird is that she has two runes: Fire and Darkness, and in Runequest those are usually opposed. The question is "How did you manage to get fire AND darkness as powers?"
<Balrogs chip in> "Doesn't everybody?"
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 06, 2024, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 06, 2024, 09:22:21 AM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 04, 2024, 03:52:55 PM
An artist on YouTube (Jazza) gave an interesting interpretation of Shelob based entirely on how she is described in The Lord of the Rings, which is 'spider-like' but not 100% an arachnid. Much more horrifying, IMO...and more alien, much like Ungoliant. The 'beak' especially makes her look like something out of a nightmare....
I like that the art style there kind of matches up with the Tolkien animated films from back in the day.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on March 05, 2024, 04:23:06 PM
Where does Cragspider the Fire Witch fall in these comparisons?
Had to google that one. At least now I know where the inspiration for this lovely lady came from. Fun bit of trivia that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NnyxGp9/Quelaag-concept-art.webp)
LOL. Beautiful image. Yeah, Runequest canon is tremendously dense and intertwined. It's hard to figure out what is being talked about. At least in Tolkien, you can just look up a certain year and see "Oh, that's when that happened!" Why Cragspider is considered weird is that she has two runes: Fire and Darkness, and in Runequest those are usually opposed. The question is "How did you manage to get fire AND darkness as powers?"
<Balrogs chip in> "Doesn't everybody?"
Wow the connections run even deeper than I thought. That picture is "Chaos Witch Quelaag" from Dark Souls. The lead developer has come out and admitted she was based on the cragspiders from a Glorantha board game he played. What I find interesting is that she wields flame sorcery as one of her main powers and her weapon scales off the player's Humanity (which in dark souls parlance is basically synonymous with "Darkness"). I wonder how much of that's intentional.