Quote from: Benoist;389108Can't remember the last time I ever met one in a store.

You're awesome. Upthread, you said you had met them in a store. But when it comes to agreeing with any tiny bit of anything I've said, you'd rather go back on what you'd said, editing your post as well. Nice. Stay classy, dude.

Seanchai

Holy fuck:

Quote from: JDCorleyI have a deep suspicion that the reason all of this is true is because the hobby has set itself up with designers/producers and consumers, when the actual experience of the hobby is more like a small group of artists buying and using paint and canvases. The idea that the fundamental transaction in the hobby is me buying something from someone is always going to be cuckoo, once you think about it a while.

Quote from: GarethNo, the problem is that a group of *consumers* somehow got it into their heads that they’re “artists.”

It’s self-aggrandizing delusional bullshit like this that lead to the wider media community, even in areas where you’d think RPGers would be valued, walking away as fast as they can.

Gamers aren’t artists. A gamer is a consumer who purchases and uses a category of products, specifically GAMES. That’s all.

That’s no more “cuckoo” than golfers purchasing and using golf gear…. Which certainly doesn’t make golfers “artists.”

Get over yourself.

Quote from: JDCorley...
But whether you call it art or sport (another good example, since many connect athletics to dance – a physical activity requiring skill and improvisation within a set framework) or something else, gaming has at its core a noncommercial activity. Companies have to find some way to help that activity along in such a way that people will pay for it.

To use your sport comparison, soccer can and is played with a ball made of rags. It doesn’t mean there is no place for soccer ball manufacturers. It just means they have a very different relationship with the soccer enthusiast than a car manufacturer has with its customers.

I guess what I’m primarily talking about here is Malcolm’s bullet point: “resisting desired behaviors”, with desired behaviors being the behaviors that make companies money. I think that is not a bad thing. I think that is a good thing. I think that is the best thing. And I think it should and will never go away, because to play RPGs, all you need is one person in your group to own the books and some dice, and you can work hard to improve your game/the fiction without ever buying anything again. At some point, we’ll want to buy a better soccer ball, and we’ll come and find one. Until then you can expect resistance to commercial offers of any kind, because the offer has nothing to do with the reality of the fundamental activity of the hobby.

Quote from: Gareth“gaming has at its core a noncommercial activity”

….and the prosecution rests.

You can’t fix this level of dysfunction. Tabletop RPG Community Delenda Est.

This is precisely why producers of other media look to draw the non-toxic individuals and elements from the community, and convert them into their base, rather than engaging with the community as a whole.

The end result, is that tabletop is left with a rump core of completely dysfunctional “fans” that not only is shrinking, but actively driving people away, thereby speeding its own demise.

Know what? That right there is what's wrong with gaming. You, Gareth and friends, turned it from community-based shared creativity into the passive consumption of uninspired pablum you and supposed "game design pros" were paid $0.05 a word to write. You don't get the core idea of the hobby you made your living on, and now have the audacity to question others' rights to treat it as the social, bottom-up and user-driven medium it was meant to be from the start. Amazing. This post has really opened the doors to something really ugly, like finding a roomful of corpses below the house of a nice old teacher. Falsehood and rot everywhere, real mind-poison.

And know what? People like Gareth and Malcolm leaving will be good for the hobby. It will be a better, saner, more intellectually honest and creative (although yes, smaller) place without them.

Good riddance! Leave! Out! Out! Out!

Quote from: Seanchai;389115You're awesome. Upthread, you said you had met them in a store. But when it comes to agreeing with any tiny bit of anything I've said, you'd rather go back on what you'd said, editing your post as well. Nice. Stay classy, dude.

Seanchai

Dude, you're forgetting that I amended (at 1:49 PM, i.e. prior to your own post) said post mentioning that I couldn't remember the last time I did, but assumed I did.

So really, you're the one who should stay classy, here.

GMS is a fuckwad. In other news, water's wet.

Quote from: The Article* Instead of having social conversations, they focused on concrete goals.
    * They related to content in a cynical fashion.
    * They dissuaded other users from getting involved with the content.
    * They resisted most desired behaviors (that is, the stuff that actually might make money).
    * They complained all the goddamn time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;389043The fault for this lies with the Lawncrappers, those who say we should be tolerant to them, and the Swine who have a vested interest in this happening.

RPGPundit

I find the complete lack of self-awareness exhibited in your response to be... well actually, I find it hilarious. Coming from someone whose online persona revolves around cynical judgment and incessant criticism of product you dislike, and just plain all around constant bitching, the irony is thick. Pundit, you are one of the most toxic personalities in the online RPG community. Nearly every point listed above can be applied directly to you.

Quote from: Melan;389116You, Gareth and friends, turned it from community-based shared creativity into the passive consumption of uninspired pablum you and supposed "game design pros" were paid $0.05 a word to write. You don't get the core idea of the hobby you made your living on, and now have the audacity to question others' rights to treat it as the social, bottom-up and user-driven medium it was meant to be from the start. Amazing. This post has really opened the doors to something really ugly, like finding a roomful of corpses below the house of a nice old teacher. Falsehood and rot everywhere, real mind-poison.

And know what? People like Gareth and Malcolm leaving will be good for the hobby. It will be a better, saner, more intellectually honest and creative (although yes, smaller) place without them.

Good riddance! Leave! Out! Out! Out!

I completely agree, by the way. This is exactly what it is.

Is Gareth really trying to compare the dynamic and social creative output of a gaming group with static products like video-games and movies?

Big giant multiquote ahead!

Quote from: Benoist;389056http://gmskarka.com/2010/05/04/transmedia-part-one/
http://gmskarka.com/2010/05/05/transmedia-part-two/
http://gmskarka.com/2010/05/07/transmedia-part-three/

I should've fucking known.  more "new media consulting" bollocks, like the shitheads who show up on my Twitter followers from time to time who want to sell me their $70 book on how to market to the Twitter Generation or some shit.

Quote from: Benoist;389079Rebuttal.

Fucking go Erik.  Pathfinder is doing great, and it's because of guys like him who actually treat gamers like people who want to play your game, instead of ignorant plebes who are fit only to buy whatever slop you dish at them.

Quote from: Age of Fable;389082Trotskyists/Christians/goths who say "Other Trotskyists/Christians/goths are arseholes. Ha ha, right on. We're not like that though" never seem to succeed in convincing the mainstream to like them, or even to see them as different to 'those others' who are the problem. Probably partly because the negative stereotype is precisely that of little groups who have frantic arguments despite being identical to outsiders.

And always missing the real irony that it's usually them who're the biggest douchebags, and the real problem with their hobby.

Some of the gamers I've known whom I think many people like Sheppard and Skarka and even some people on this board would dismiss as "creepy fatbeards" or some other such term at a glance were the most welcoming and creative gamers I encountered.

Meanwhile the "oh but I'm not like one of THOSE geeks" types, of which RPGnet and the Forge in particular are well stocked, tend to be the ones whose elitist attitude causes more harm than anything else, and whose simultaneous love of, and obliviousness to, their own ironies result in some of the most ridiculous pablum I've ever seen.  

Quote from: Garnfellow;389103While their general thesis might have some merit, there is also some crazy irony in Malcolm Sheppard and Gareth Skarka -- two of the most consistently douchebaggy online "insiders" in the RPG "industry" -- calling out douchebaggy online fans of RPGs.

Physician, heal thyself!

I love Skarka.  The man is so fucking clueless as to the irony of his own existence that it is staggering.  Everything that man has ever done or said has been a contradiction in terms.

The Dunning-Krueger effect in action.

Quote from: Melan;389107I see a failed "game entrepreneur" rationalising his choices to abandon his former job. Since I am also familiar with his previous posting record on RPGNet and ENWorld, I must also confirm what Garnfellow wrote - Malcolm's an insufferable prick with colossal chips on both shoulders, typical RPGNet extremist politics and a bitter hatred for his supposed audience, which makes anything he wants to sell me - idea or product - suspect.

I am also seeing something of a trend here on TheRPGSite: peoples' critical thinking ability has decreased to the extent that they take this clown at face value and don't call out his obvious bullshit. Two, lotsa people here have gobbled up the "gamers = dysfunction" meme (with Forgist origins, of course). I have previously discussed why this image is a fallacy based on self-image problems and a really nasty negative stereotyping trend within the hobby, so I will not go into details.

Disappointing on all counts.

[edit]It might be worth it to mention that "RPG writer" is not a good job. It is a slog to write several pages of content a week at two cents a word or maybe a bit more for larger companies; no IP ownership and a lot of ramen noodles in your diet. It is not exactly a wonder it grinds people down to the extent they start to hate this phase of their life as they move on - which, if they want to think long-term beyond the age of, what, thirty-five or fourty, they should.[/edit]

Quote from: Melan;389116Holy fuck:

Know what? That right there is what's wrong with gaming. You, Gareth and friends, turned it from community-based shared creativity into the passive consumption of uninspired pablum you and supposed "game design pros" were paid $0.05 a word to write. You don't get the core idea of the hobby you made your living on, and now have the audacity to question others' rights to treat it as the social, bottom-up and user-driven medium it was meant to be from the start. Amazing. This post has really opened the doors to something really ugly, like finding a roomful of corpses below the house of a nice old teacher. Falsehood and rot everywhere, real mind-poison.

And know what? People like Gareth and Malcolm leaving will be good for the hobby. It will be a better, saner, more intellectually honest and creative (although yes, smaller) place without them.

Good riddance! Leave! Out! Out! Out!

Excellent points all.  The fewer of these asinine "consultant" types in this hobby, the better.

Quote from: Benoist;389108Can't remember the last time I ever met one in a store.

Try being female and working in a shop that also sells rpgs.  Oh you will see them.  Staring at you from behind racks while pretending to be looking at a book on psychology (now that was a moment of irony).  Then they go tell their friends and they all come and stare at you.  It gets even worse when they discover that you are a gamer also.

Online it reaches a whole new level.  I had to change the handle I use and even switch email addresses to get away from the creepy online stalkers types.  Lesson learned on that one I'll tell you.

GMS has many excellent ideas in his Transmedia discussion.  

Lawncrappers / Swine / Stinky Beards are mostly imaginary bogeymen.  Sure a few exist, but they are vastly outnumbered by the mainstream of gamers who have no problem holding down jobs, taking showers and having girlfriends and just like to toss dice.

RPG as hobby =/= RPG as industry.  However, I do believe that the failure of the industry will result in the disappearance of the hobby.

Overall, I agree with the article.   Online RPGers are a pretty useless lot.  Lots of spittle and fury that can't do any good for noobs who may wander into our forums.

Quote from: dekaranger;389133Try being female and working in a shop that also sells rpgs.  O.

Ouch, that sucks. I don't think I've ever done that--I certainly hope not. I usually marched up and talked to the game store owner/worker to talk to them, if they were interested in conversation. That is, no matter their physical sex. I miss the owners wife at the local store--he's usually there when I go in, and he's awesome. Yet his wife was too and she's not around as much. I imagine she's working another job to make real money. ;/

On the other hand, I'm sure the nice young lady who owned the local comic book store a decade or more ago had the same issues. Although I walked up and talked to her about comics, as I would any guy comic store owner. Again if interested.  


I guess I'm odd. Ah well.

Quote from: dekaranger;389133Try being female and working in a shop that also sells rpgs.  Oh you will see them.  Staring at you from behind racks while pretending to be looking at a book on psychology (now that was a moment of irony).  Then they go tell their friends and they all come and stare at you.  It gets even worse when they discover that you are a gamer also.

Yeah, I can imagine that happening. Awkward.

Quote from: dekaranger;389133Online it reaches a whole new level.  I had to change the handle I use and even switch email addresses to get away from the creepy online stalkers types.  Lesson learned on that one I'll tell you.

That too I can easily believe.

For reference, a follow-up from GMSkarka: Irony, Thy Name is Gamer

Quote from: dekaranger;389133Try being female and working in a shop that also sells rpgs.  Oh you will see them.  Staring at you from behind racks while pretending to be looking at a book on psychology (now that was a moment of irony).  Then they go tell their friends and they all come and stare at you.  It gets even worse when they discover that you are a gamer also.

Online it reaches a whole new level.  I had to change the handle I use and even switch email addresses to get away from the creepy online stalkers types.  Lesson learned on that one I'll tell you.

Had to deal with a creep who acted like this last year. Had a woman join our Labyrinth Lord group and the DM started hitting on her, even though she was engaged to be married and showed no interest in becoming romantic with anyone but her fiance. It got to the point that she felt so uncomfortable by the unwanted attention from our DM, that she left the group. At which point, our DM went completely emo and quit the game and gaming because, "his muse had left and he just couldn't go on anymore."

Two years previously I sat in on a D&D game where one Player went out of his way to be a misanthrope. He went through three PCs in two months, each one played as more of a douchebag than the last. Things finally culminated and the group imploded when another Player, whom this guy didn't like, had to leave early from the game for work and had to leave his character (who was dead and awaiting a Raise Dead spell) behind and the douchebag's PC (for no in-character reason) took the corpse, set it on fire, and scattered the ashes in the local river. When asked why he did that dick move, he said it was in-character but never explained why it was in-character.

Then, of course, there is my tale of D&D Sensitivity Training.

I agree with Spinachcat, the fucked-up gamers are few and far between. Thank God, because if they were any more common, then I doubt that anyone would play tabletop RPGs. They tend to be such spectacular fuck-ups when encountered that they become impossible to forget.

Quote from: Benoist;389139For reference, a follow-up from GMSkarka: Irony, Thy Name is Gamer

Whose own point would seem to be made just by reading this thread.