Quote from: jeff37923;389091Which seems to be the crux of the problem. The gamers making the biggest impressions on those outside of gaming (who might be introduced to the hobby) are the socially retarded, the Lawncrappers.

How do you know that?

Seems to me the Lawncrappers are visible on the internet. People who do not particularly care about gaming don't give a shit about gamers on the internet, or the places they visit. Seems to me to be a complete fabrication. A myth, rather than a fact.

Wonder how much "market research" is done these days by googling only, and very little else.

If marketing drones are that lazy, they would find all kinds of crap in google searches to think twice about dealing with certain niche groups.

Quote from: Benoist;389094How do you know that?

Seems to me the Lawncrappers are visible on the internet. People who do not particularly care about gaming don't give a shit about gamers on the internet, or the places they visit. Seems to me to be a complete fabrication. A myth, rather than a fact.

So you are telling me that you have never encountered a socially retarded or just plain asshole gamer?

Skarka and Sheppard sure seem to hate the byjeezus out of the RPG business, don't they?

Lord Hobie

Quote from: jeff37923;389096So you are telling me that you have never encountered a socially retarded or just plain asshole gamer?

Where? In a game store? Sure (edit - I'm actually trying to think of a single instance, and have a hard time remembering one. But let's assume I did). But that's basically assuming that somehow newbies to gaming show up at a game store having never played a game, see some asshole arguing over a game and leave disgusted, and that this scenario would be a widespread, common occurence on how people are introduced to role playing.

This has NEVER been the case. Most people aren't introduced to gaming by gaming stores, and aren't introduced to gaming by ENWorld and RPGnet.

They are introduced to gaming by guys like you, Uncle/Dad/Friend Jeff, running games and exposing them to gaming. They saw or played one time, and found gaming entertaining enough so that you, Uncle Jeff, or mom or dad or whoever decided it was time for them to get a game of their own.

That's how most of us have been introduced to gaming, and that's still what's going on today.

Quote from: Benoist;389088It's all bullshit to me. Want to grow the hobby? Play games. Introduce new people to your games, not people who already are gamers. Make them entertaining, and they'll ask for more. Stop being cheap bitches, and offer games to your nephews and nieces. Expose them. Then they'll go buy games on their own, if so inclined.

That of course assumes that one is able to function socially by having non-gamer friends, being a decent host when inviting people over to play games, and be able to make the experience entertaining while playing.

That's it, really. This has nothing to do with people having opinions on the net. Nothing *at all*. People outside the hobby don't give a flying fuck about RPGnet, ENWorld or theRPGsite. They don't even know what those are. That's a blunt, cold hard fact.

Absolutely.

Quote from: jeff37923So you are telling me that you have never encountered a socially retarded or just plain asshole gamer?

Yes, but it's generally easier to regard them as "social retards of just plain assholes", because seriously...you know that would fit no matter what their hobby.

I don't even buy that there are any more or less of them than any other hobby or past-time...it's just that we're talking about them at an RPG website, and an unmoderated one (in the traditional sense) at that.

Quote from: Lord Hobie;389099Skarka and Sheppard sure seem to hate the byjeezus out of the RPG business, don't they?

While their general thesis might have some merit, there is also some crazy irony in Malcolm Sheppard and Gareth Skarka -- two of the most consistently douchebaggy online "insiders" in the RPG "industry" -- calling out douchebaggy online fans of RPGs.

Physician, heal thyself!

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;389090That wasn't what he said. He didn't say that the rpg customers wouldn't buy the product. The problem was that they came in and shit on everything and drove other customers away. The customer can indeed be wrong in that case.

Or the consumer can be right. We have no idea what the product was. Yes, they might have been driving people away from the next Star Wars. Then again, they might have been warning people that it was really the next Santa Claus Conquers the Martians. We have no way of knowing -- and given that 90% of everything generally is rubbish really no reason to assume it was the next Star Wars.

Quote from: Benoist;389100They are introduced to gaming by guys like you, Uncle/Dad/Friend Jeff, running games and exposing them to gaming. They saw or played one time, and found gaming entertaining enough so that you, Uncle Jeff, or mom or dad or whoever decided it was time for them to get a game of their own.

That's how most of us have been introduced to gaming, and that's still what's going on today.

I agree. The problem is, once they've been introduced and are sorting through their feelings about gaming, then they go beyond "Uncle/Dad/Friend Jeff" and encounter asshats in FLGSes or online. It's not about being introduced to gaming by an asshat, it's about having to decide if gaming is worth enduring the stinky, socially maladjusted neckbeards, lawncrappers, and edition warriors.

On a related note, did anyone catch Warren the Ape last night?

Seanchai

I see a failed "game entrepreneur" rationalising his choices to abandon his former job. Since I am also familiar with his previous posting record on RPGNet and ENWorld, I must also confirm what Garnfellow wrote - Malcolm's an insufferable prick with colossal chips on both shoulders, typical RPGNet extremist politics and a bitter hatred for his supposed audience, which makes anything he wants to sell me - idea or product - suspect.

I am also seeing something of a trend here on TheRPGSite: peoples' critical thinking ability has decreased to the extent that they take this clown at face value and don't call out his obvious bullshit. Two, lotsa people here have gobbled up the "gamers = dysfunction" meme (with Forgist origins, of course). I have previously discussed why this image is a fallacy based on self-image problems and a really nasty negative stereotyping trend within the hobby, so I will not go into details.

Disappointing on all counts.

[edit]It might be worth it to mention that "RPG writer" is not a good job. It is a slog to write several pages of content a week at two cents a word or maybe a bit more for larger companies; no IP ownership and a lot of ramen noodles in your diet. It is not exactly a wonder it grinds people down to the extent they start to hate this phase of their life as they move on - which, if they want to think long-term beyond the age of, what, thirty-five or fourty, they should.[/edit]

Quote from: Seanchai;389106It's not about being introduced to gaming by an asshat, it's about having to decide if gaming is worth enduring the stinky, socially maladjusted neckbeards, lawncrappers, and edition warriors.

Can't remember the last time I ever met one in a store.

Quote from: Benoist;389100This has NEVER been the case. Most people aren't introduced to gaming by gaming stores, and aren't introduced to gaming by ENWorld and RPGnet.

They are introduced to gaming by guys like you, Uncle/Dad/Friend Jeff, running games and exposing them to gaming. They saw or played one time, and found gaming entertaining enough so that you, Uncle Jeff, or mom or dad or whoever decided it was time for them to get a game of their own.

That's how most of us have been introduced to gaming, and that's still what's going on today.

Fuck yeah.  I was brought into gaming by high-school friends -- I never would've found out about it (or at least to the point where I'd want to play) on the net or through a shop.

Even then, quite a few of my friends (and as I'm slowly finding out, a good portion of my acquaintances whom I met outside of gaming) play RPGs, and none, none of them have ever even heard of RPGnet, theRPGsite, the Forge.  These sites are practically invisible, and game stores aren't even a social crux for most of the RPG groups I know -- in fact a majority of the RPG groups I've played in or have met (including during the d20 boom) never went near a store unless they were there to buy dice or Magic cards.

QuoteCan't remember the last time I ever met one in a store.

There are still a few hardcore d20 3.x warriors in my area...the rest of us ignore them.  I even offered to run an AD&D game and they wouldn't give it a second thought.  Apparently 4e broke too many traditions, but AD&D was too close to the original *shrug*.

Also a few really weird guys.  But the owner's a bit of a nut, too (he just recently opened up an S&M shop somewhere else using the game store's profits from last quarter), so I guess it should be expected.  As long as they don't bug me, I don't care.

Unless one is spending his or her life in a gaming store, I'm willing to bet these instances are not as common place as people would have us believe. I remember Ed talking about this some time ago, saying he had to ask some people to calm down maybe twice during the last year in the store, or something to that extent. I believe this issue of "stinky neckbeards" is blown wayyy out of proportion.

Quote from: Benoist;389110Unless one is spending his or her life in a gaming store, I'm willing to bet these instances are not as common place as people would have us believe. I remember Ed talking about this some time ago, saying he had to ask some people to calm down maybe twice during the last year in the store, or something to that extent. I believe this issue of "stinky neckbeards" is blown wayyy out of proportion.

Maybe so, but I luck must've given me a really bad hand.

Most of the people I know who play RPGs don't even go to shops, so it's not much of a problem.  I've got a big enough of a social pool to draw from.

My friends and I used to game allll the time in a local store - back in the 80's. Its probably been 25 years since I rolled dice anywhere but someone's house or a convention.

Nowadays, at least in my neck of the woods, I'm not sure there ARE many stores where you could play, even if you wanted to.

Also, yes, I have met and gamed with smelly neckbeards. One of my friends is borderline, in fact, but that's just the way he is after all these years - he ain't gonna change. IT nerd, you know the type.