Quote from: thecasualoblivion;390458I'd say the golden age of RPGs is 16-21

The age range may very well be changing with time.

Quote from: two_fishes;390453The golden age of video games is about 12, give or take a few years. I suspect the same may be true of RPGs. As a result, I'm a little skeptical of the objectivity of any claim over a particular date for a golden age that also just so happens to coincide with the claimant's age at the time.

Well if it matters, I'm (almost) 23, my favorite games were all in the mid-to-late 90s, and I don't like a majority of the games coming out now.

The only reason I'm predicting it's now is because of the aforementioned abandonment of the youth as the driving force behind the console industry and an extremely high peak in revenue a few years ago.  Just look at the "critically acclaimed" titles ratings now compared to the days of the NES and SNES.  The content is maturing with the "boom" generation around the advent of the NES and quality licensed titles, but I don't believe there's enough content for young people to fill the void.  Once my generation abandons gaming to deal with real life and raising families, you're talking about a huge portion of the gamer population being taken out of the equation.

The only one catering to the youth in big ways is Nintendo, and even Shigeru is saying that interactive "toys" are more interesting than games.

Of course, it's the way all things go.  The youth are the drivers of markets, not adults, especially when looking at things like games or toys.  Without catering to the youth, an industry is setting itself up for a slow demise, with little chance for a real revival.  Neither the mainstream industry nor the indie games movement have done anything to really grow the hobby.

Quote from: Peregrin;390463Of course, it's the way all things go.  The youth are the drivers of markets, not adults, especially when looking at things like games or toys.  Without catering to the youth, an industry is setting itself up for a slow demise, with little chance for a real revival.  Neither the mainstream industry nor the indie games movement have done anything to really grow the hobby.

One just has to see what happened to Avalon Hill and SPI style wargames from the 1970's.

Interesting then that WotC noticed that 4E wasn't as newbie friendly as they'd like, and are now working on an alternate version to exist side by side with the main game to remedy this.

I'm really tempted to speculate whether they're going to have the RPGA adopt D&D essentials. It will piss off a lot of people, but if they want RPGA to be the entry into D&D its probably necessary.

They don't need to "adopt" anything, since Essentials is still regular 4e, just in a more concise format.  

Same rules, just a tad less content.

Quote from: Peregrin;390469They don't need to "adopt" anything, since Essentials is still regular 4e, just in a more concise format.  

Same rules, just a tad less content.

Well, RPGA during 3E allowed most supplements, though I think "newbie/casual friendly" was one of the last things 3E RPGA would ever be accused of.

What I was talking about was more along the lines of adopting Essentials as the standard for RPGA games, as opposed to "anything in Character Builder" like is true now, and limiting RPGA to Essentials only. I think its going to happen, though probably on a two-tiered level existing along side "anything goes".

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;390458I'd say the golden age of RPGs is 16-21

And to think I dropped out at almost exactly 16 and wasted three years of my life not gaming...

Quote from: Peregrin;390463Well if it matters, I'm (almost) 23, my favorite games were all in the mid-to-late 90s, and I don't like a majority of the games coming out now.

The only reason I'm predicting it's now is because of the aforementioned abandonment of the youth as the driving force behind the console industry and an extremely high peak in revenue a few years ago.  Just look at the "critically acclaimed" titles ratings now compared to the days of the NES and SNES.  The content is maturing with the "boom" generation around the advent of the NES and quality licensed titles, but I don't believe there's enough content for young people to fill the void.  Once my generation abandons gaming to deal with real life and raising families, you're talking about a huge portion of the gamer population being taken out of the equation.

The only one catering to the youth in big ways is Nintendo, and even Shigeru is saying that interactive "toys" are more interesting than games.

Of course, it's the way all things go.  The youth are the drivers of markets, not adults, especially when looking at things like games or toys.  Without catering to the youth, an industry is setting itself up for a slow demise, with little chance for a real revival.  Neither the mainstream industry nor the indie games movement have done anything to really grow the hobby.

This is hilarious.  Just goddamn hilarious.

I love when this site talks about video games, it's so comically fucking clueless about them it's astounding.

Video games as a medium have diversified with age just as every other major medium has.

We're talking about a medium that is exploding in academia even, something I don't recall any of these penny-ante hobby fads you're using as your point of reference accomplishing.  

Again, get some perspective, stop confining your view of the medium only to the parts of it you've chosen to engage with, and you'll realize this thing is bigger than you think it is, and it sure as hell isn't going anywhere.  The money alone will see to that.

Quote from: J Arcane;390475This is hilarious.  Just goddamn hilarious.

I love when this site talks about video games, it's so comically fucking clueless about them it's astounding.

Video games as a medium have diversified with age just as every other major medium has.

We're talking about a medium that is exploding in academia even, something I don't recall any of these penny-ante hobby fads you're using as your point of reference accomplishing.  

Again, get some perspective, stop confining your view of the medium only to the parts of it you've chosen to engage with, and you'll realize this thing is bigger than you think it is, and it sure as hell isn't going anywhere.  The money alone will see to that.

Yeah... saying that games today are losing the youth market (they aren't, there are still games for younger folks, it's just that Nintendo and some PC games are the main ones working on that niche, plus rockband and some odds and ends) or that catering to adults is going to take them down is kind of funny. It's like saying anime and manga in Japan are going to collapse because they target adults too. They aren't. Because videogames, like anime and manga do target women and younger audiences alongside the audience that grew up with them and probably isn't going to stop having time for them (the main problem with an aging audience.. anime and manga are passive media, so outside of consumption they don't take up time... videogames are more and more focused on quick play (again rockband) pvp and running around a big world doing sidequests IME). First person shooters will stay mainstream thanks to how little time quick pvps will take up. Women will keep playing MMOs, Rockband, Sims, etc. Either platformers and puzzle games will have a comeback or they're just not on my radar in the same way Rockband usually doesn't make the discussions in internet discussions of videogames.

Quote from: J Arcane;390475Video games as a medium have diversified with age just as every other major medium has.

Some of it has happened, but rapidly rising production costs have meant most developers play safe and focus on the largest market share they can grab, which is a lot like how TV networks and major record labels work. Games will genuinely diversify only when more people learn to accept B-grade visuals* in exchange for experiences that target a niche audience, much like how you don't expect Avatar-level CGI from a B movie.
_________
* In the current environment, this means something like Doom3, which is already pretty good, just no longer cutting edge.

Video games and MMO's do a very piss-poor job of giving one those character life-options that table top RPGS can simulate. Bioware games like KOTOR and jade Empire come closest, but my biggest problem with KOTOR is the fact that I cannot be a SUBTLE Sith. Every option is an over-the-top evil option if one is going down that path. I CAN instigate a path to power that could literally take years by playing KOTOR tabletop, though. Mostly, my video games are limited to sports titles, and I actually prefer the sports titles to watching sports on TV (except for hockey, which I'll always sit down and watch over a beer)

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;390470What I was talking about was more along the lines of adopting Essentials as the standard for RPGA games, as opposed to "anything in Character Builder" like is true now, and limiting RPGA to Essentials only. I think its going to happen, though probably on a two-tiered level existing along side "anything goes".

RPGA or LFR? LFR is a subset of the RPGA; the RPGA also includes things like D&D Encounters.

I won't be surprised if season 3 or 4 of Encounters is aimed squarely at Essentials. They've all included pregens so far, so no forcing anyone to buy anything, but non-pre-gens coming from Essentials material only? Sure.

LFR is not going Essentials only. First, what would you do about all the characters already created? Second, how would you change all the existing modules to remove all the monsters and magic items from non-Essentials material? Third, WotC just finished letting go of LFR -- they're not even requiring WotC approval of new modules any more. It's 95% of the way to being completely fan-owned.

Right now you get extra power slots for having renown and you get bonus renown for using options out of expansion books. Buying new books and making characters with the material in them specifically makes your character more powerful.

They could, and indeed should shy away from the "buy more books / get more power in-game" model. But I am not holding my breath for that to happen any time soon.

This being WotC, I think it more likely that we'll see a "block" format, where only the latest sets of classes are permissible. And yeah, that will probably start with Essentials, because that's as good a place as any for a break point. But unless heads roll over there real soon, there will be a Barbarian and a Bard coming in later books that will be compatible with Essentials games. Including the Essentials Block RPGA games.

It worked for Magic: the Gathering.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;390505Right now you get extra power slots for having renown and you get bonus renown for using options out of expansion books. Buying new books and making characters with the material in them specifically makes your character more powerful.
-Frank

Not true. You do get reknown points for playing stuff out of the newer books that are being promoted, but they don't make you significantly more powerful.

Is a runepriest or a monk more powerful than a cleric or a rogue? Survey says no.

Quote from: Thanlis;390503RPGA or LFR? LFR is a subset of the RPGA; the RPGA also includes things like D&D Encounters.

I won't be surprised if season 3 or 4 of Encounters is aimed squarely at Essentials. They've all included pregens so far, so no forcing anyone to buy anything, but non-pre-gens coming from Essentials material only? Sure.

LFR is not going Essentials only. First, what would you do about all the characters already created? Second, how would you change all the existing modules to remove all the monsters and magic items from non-Essentials material? Third, WotC just finished letting go of LFR -- they're not even requiring WotC approval of new modules any more. It's 95% of the way to being completely fan-owned.

now that I think of it, it probably isn't necessary. While power creep exists in 4e, it isn't to a gamebreakin degree, especially not at low levels. Essentials only characters should function on reasonable terms along side older chars.

They've also explicitly stated that encounters season 3 will be essentials.