QuoteNot sure where you are living but right now the average video game takes round about 20-40 hours to beat if you have both thumbs, with 40 being the exception rather than the rule.

Actually, 20-40 hours was average in the 90s.  Most video games (hardcore RPGs aside, as they're still a niche genre) take less than 25 hours, with most action games clocking in around 13-15 for their single-player campaigns.

The number of hours continues to lessen as development for hi-fidelity games becomes more expensive.

Quote from: dekarangerI'd say some of what RPGPundit is talking about is a different 'golden age' of video games. Mainly because of the pong reference. I feel there was a golden age of video games a couple decades back, the 'Arcade Golden Age' when they were raking in millions upon millions one quarter at a time. Nowdays you could consider it a 'Golden Age for home video games' or something like that.

So why they may be moving a ton of a certain game today it may, or may not, be getting any more actual people playing it than an arcade hit of the 80's. I remember when I was young and seeing a line of people waiting to play Dragons Lair at the local 7-11 or the packed out arcades in Six Flags (lined up outside the doors).

True.  I always forget about arcades, since they were dying out when I was growing up, and the big emphasis was on home consoles (with computer games being the realm of adults unless you were playing Reader Rabbit).

The revenues being generated in the present generation of gaming dwarf anything that came prior to it, even factoring in inflation.

Gaming's as big as Hollywood now, anyone of the opinion that it's anything but an ever growing success is possessed of a deep lack of perspective.

Quote from: dekaranger;390393I'd say some of what RPGPundit is talking about is a different 'golden age' of video games.  Mainly because of the pong reference.  I feel there was a golden age of video games a couple decades back, the 'Arcade Golden Age' when they were raking in millions upon millions one quarter at a time.  Nowdays you could consider it a 'Golden Age for home video games' or something like that.  

And the translations to the home consoles at the time.  Additionally, it was a 'Golden Age' of creativity, really.  Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Pango, Space invaders...  What did these games have in common?  Not a damn thing, they were all originals, and companies weren't afraid to but out some weird concept game.  These days companies put out the same game in a different wrapper constantly.  A few tweaks here and there, some innovations, but largely one third person shooter is the same as any other.  Gears of War 2 and Modern Warfare 2 are wildly different in graphics, but not drastically different in gameplay.

Quote from: StormBringer;390398And the translations to the home consoles at the time.  Additionally, it was a 'Golden Age' of creativity, really.  Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Pango, Space invaders...  What did these games have in common?  Not a damn thing, they were all originals, and companies weren't afraid to but out some weird concept game.  These days companies put out the same game in a different wrapper constantly.  A few tweaks here and there, some innovations, but largely one third person shooter is the same as any other.  Gears of War 2 and Modern Warfare 2 are wildly different in graphics, but not drastically different in gameplay.

And there were also countless companies cloning the ever-loving bejeezus out of those old arcade titles to a level that would be utterly embarrassing today.

Quote from: J Arcane;390407And there were also countless companies cloning the ever-loving bejeezus out of those old arcade titles to a level that would be utterly embarrassing today.

Oh, absolutely.  The very early stages of 'copyright infringement' mania.  There is no doubt that Sturgeon's Law reigned supreme in those heady days.  The second half of Steven Levy's Hackers explores the phenomena.  How many dozens of expressions were there of guiding some creature around a maze eating various objects while pursued by enemies?  Answer:  Lots.

Quote from: StormBringer;390398And the translations to the home consoles at the time.  Additionally, it was a 'Golden Age' of creativity, really.  Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Pango, Space invaders...  What did these games have in common?  Not a damn thing, they were all originals, and companies weren't afraid to but out some weird concept game.  These days companies put out the same game in a different wrapper constantly.  A few tweaks here and there, some innovations, but largely one third person shooter is the same as any other.  Gears of War 2 and Modern Warfare 2 are wildly different in graphics, but not drastically different in gameplay.

I don't know. There are issues with this way of looking at it:

1. Bases are covered now that weren't then.
2. Some new features are evolution instead of revolution, especially with CRPGs.
3. There are massive exceptions every few years (katamari and portal being the best examples)

Most genres have an explosion of creativity at the start followed by a long stretch of people perfecting the genre later, IME.

Quote from: beejazz;390444I don't know. There are issues with this way of looking at it:

1. Bases are covered now that weren't then.
2. Some new features are evolution instead of revolution, especially with CRPGs.
3. There are massive exceptions every few years (katamari and portal being the best examples)

Most genres have an explosion of creativity at the start followed by a long stretch of people perfecting the genre later, IME.

Definitely, I am not saying that video games should have been somehow immune to the natural evolution of the market or anything.  I was pointing out why many would consider the early 80s a 'Golden Age' for gaming.  Many of the games that were around then still enjoy some popularity now, albeit in different forms and structure.  A game like Goldeneye on the N64, on the other hand, is all but forgotten.

Quote from: StormBringer;390445A game like Goldeneye on the N64, on the other hand, is all but forgotten.

Do you mean to the general public, or the geek populace?  Because most people I know who owned a 64 still rave about Goldeneye, and even Perfect Dark, though slightly lesser-known, was re-released on the 360 redone in high-res.

Not to mention Nintendo announcing a new Goldeneye at this year's E3.

Quote from: Peregrin;390446Do you mean to the general public, or the geek populace?  Because most people I know who owned a 64 still rave about Goldeneye, and even Perfect Dark, though slightly lesser-known, was re-released on the 360 redone in high-res.

Not to mention Nintendo announcing a new Goldeneye at this year's E3.

Yeah... goldeneye was a pretty awesome game.

Quote from: Peregrin;390446Do you mean to the general public, or the geek populace?  Because most people I know who owned a 64 still rave about Goldeneye, and even Perfect Dark, though slightly lesser-known, was re-released on the 360 redone in high-res.

Not to mention Nintendo announcing a new Goldeneye at this year's E3.

Geez, another new Goldeneye?  How many does that make now?  Ummmm...  one?

The golden age of video games is about 12, give or take a few years. I suspect the same may be true of RPGs. As a result, I'm a little skeptical of the objectivity of any claim over a particular date for a golden age that also just so happens to coincide with the claimant's age at the time.

Quote from: RPGPundit;390372Nintendo has simple games that anyone can play, that don't require you to dedicate 10000 hours to "beat", don't require you to read a 350 page "hint book", or to chat on forums about how to maximize your character, or to have to master a whole complex set of mechanics or moves.
Everyone thought they were out of their mind for essentially going back to the "Pong" mentality instead of catering to the fucking retarded uber-nerds who want ever-more complex games, ever-more-exclusive (in the sense of the amount of commitment required to become a "serious player") RPGs, and ever more violent and dizzying first-person shooters (that otherwise are all the same).  But everybody but Nintendo forgot something: that the era of Pong was a fucking golden age, where you had a much vaster potential market. Where "video games" was not just the domain of 14-40 year old white male virgins.

And now Nintendo was proven right.

And RPGs should follow that example. Where's the tabletop RPG equivalent of the Wii? Where's the D&D Red Box set equivalent to their Pong?

RPGPundit

And yet that game most emphatically does not exist today, particularly if it isn't 4E D&D. D&D is the only brand name in RPGs with enough mainstream visibility to fulfill this sort of role. While involvement in the local RPGA has taught me that 4E is an easy game to learn on the fly, and easily picked up by newbs with no prior experience, I don't entirely disagree with you here. They may be aiming for this with the D&D essentials line, but we won't know until we see it.

As for other things, I don't think there is any current game that can serve as this. I think 3E D&D isn't a good game for this at all, as it has all of the complexity of 4E without having 4E's ease of use, transparency, or DM friendliness. Earlier editions of D&D are way out of date both thematically and from a game standpoint compared to modern tastes.

The best first game and the one I would recommend if I wasn't recommending learning 4E from the local RPGA would be Vampire: the Masquerade second edition. Back when I was playing Vampire twice a week, we recruited a number of new players who never played before, and the system was easy to get into from both the player and GM side. Why I rate 2nd edition Masquerade higher is due to it having a more compelling setting(at the time, its a bit dated now) and the fact that you could grok the setting just by reading the character creation section while ignoring the rest of the book, which I don't think you can do with the nWoD version. It was also self contained in one book, unlike Requiem.

Any other games either aren't newbie friendly(either in complexity or having a large, stable and accessible community to learn from) or don't have the exposure.

Quote from: two_fishes;390453As a result, I'm a little skeptical of the objectivity of any claim over a particular date for a golden age that also just so happens to coincide with the claimant's age at the time.

This may very well be the case.

I thought the "golden age" of tabletop rpgs was in the early 1980's.  Before that time, I wasn't playing any rpgs.  During the 1990's, I wasn't playing any rpgs at all either.

I suppose somebody else may have a different "golden age" timeline, if they started playing in the 1990's or 2000's.

One reason companies may not like RPGers is that they prefer customers who are docile. complacent and easily manipulated.

Gamers think too much, have too many opinions, ask too many questions and so on to be good consumers.

Quote from: two_fishes;390453The golden age of video games is about 12, give or take a few years. I suspect the same may be true of RPGs. As a result, I'm a little skeptical of the objectivity of any claim over a particular date for a golden age that also just so happens to coincide with the claimant's age at the time.

I'd say the golden age of RPGs is 16-21