Quote from: CRKrueger;389674Well Pundit has a point about the Lawncrappers, but there's another force at work: age.

People stopped playing RPGs when they got out of high school or college the same way people stop doing everything they did in high school or college.  They get jobs, get married, move to different locations, lose track of old friends.  These people would probably game if they had time or people they liked to game with.  In the military RPGs are still popular, lawncrapper's haven't done anything there.

The problem is, the people who kept playing RPGs after college most of the time were people who weren't too successful at other aspects of life.  80s and 90s weren't exactly laid back, people were serious about work and money.

I think it's more a case of the normal people left just because life called, and Lawncrappers were all that were left.  I think once Virtual Tabletop gets more sophisticated you'll see some people come back, but then again, some people just aren't willing to designate a few hours a week as gametime anymore, instead they game on the console or online here and there.  The irony is, that always adds up to way more then if they just sat down to game.

Something that exacerbates this is the schedules working people have these days. People don't work 9 to 5 jobs like they used to. Changing schedules, overtime, and weird hours are very common in 2010. When everybody works different and weird schedules, its hard to connect for a 4hr span on a regular basis. I wonder if the Uruguay Pundit describes has people working more regular hours as opposed to the mess we have in America.

I know plenty of "unsuccessful" people who are far more socially adept and less awkward than their more well educated brethren.

The unhealthily obsessed would exist with or without the emigration of casual players.  It's just a matter of getting the casual, "normal", whatever players to become the dominant force in the industry again.

Quote from: CRKrueger;389674People stopped playing RPGs when they got out of high school or college the same way people stop doing everything they did in high school or college.  They get jobs, get married, move to different locations, lose track of old friends.  These people would probably game if they had time or people they liked to game with.  In the military RPGs are still popular, lawncrapper's haven't done anything there.

I believe this is true.  Most of the people I gamed with in high school (maybe all of them) and even people I have taught to play rpgs no longer do so because there are too many other things they need/would rather do with their time.

Hell, I have considered giving up rpgs because I could use the time for better things and if I need to get my gaming fix then I will play an mmorpg.

Playing an MMO isn't exactly an efficient use of time, even compared to tabletop.

Quote from: Peregrin;389680Playing an MMO isn't exactly an efficient use of time, even compared to tabletop, In My Opinion

Fixed your typo.   Don't assume you know whats a good use of my time.  You don't know me and I know what's best for me much better then you.

For me, I get more out of MMORPGS then I do rpgs, I get a better value for my time, I dont have to deal with the headache of scheduling a game or arguing about what game to play.

They are a better value for the money for me, because I can play them more often and put more time into them, making the cost per play hour less.

To me, rpgs are becoming less and less worth it.   It's been a good 21 years and good things come to an end

Don't misunderstand Daed-- I never said you.  I was talking purely in terms of the amount of buy-in time required, not the quality of the time spent.

In otherwords, I can come home from work, and play one or two full matches of Team Fortress 2 in a half-hour, then go do other things.  MMOs require a significantly greater portion of time -- it's harder to just log in for a half hour and get anything accomplished.  I don't see tabletop as somehow requiring more time than MMO games in terms of payout you get per "session."

Quote from: Daedalus;389682Fixed your typo.   Don't assume you know whats a good use of my time.  You don't know me and I know what's best for me much better then you.

For me, I get more out of MMORPGS then I do rpgs, I get a better value for my time, I dont have to deal with the headache of scheduling a game or arguing about what game to play.

They are a better value for the money for me, because I can play them more often and put more time into them, making the cost per play hour less.

To me, rpgs are becoming less and less worth it.   It's been a good 21 years and good things come to an end

I'm hoping with better virtual tabletop options, then it won't become such a headache to get people together.  Mmorpgs unfortunately don't scratch my roleplaying itch.  I love the tactical challenge of biting off more then you should be able to chew and then coming out on top.  I like hanging out with friends online, but mmorpgs are increasingly becoming almost psychological experiments.  The attempts at controlling continued subscription through time and money sinks is so pathetically transparent it makes me sick.  I might go back to WoW when they get to level 100, then I can get on and cruise through 30 levels without having to raid.

The only game with a roleplaying server worth the name that I've found is LotRO and even then it's hard to just park your 65 and go back to roleplaying up another character when everyone wants the gear necessary to advance to the next level of raiding.  God, fucking kill me now.

For roleplaying it's a good old tabletop RPG (or Bioware game).

I played WOW for years... and enjoyed it, mostly... but it didn't have jack to do with roleplaying... and yeah, it ate up WAY more time than tabletop games.

City of Heroes was a lot easier to jump in, play a bit, jump out... and for some reason, maybe the much more customized look/powers of the characters, it did seem to encourage a bit more roleplay... too bad all the missions were so blandly alike.

I've seen a LOT more assinine behavior in MMOs than I have in face-to-face games. WOW in particular seems to breed/attract fucked up behavior.

WoW has come so close to being murdered by their own hardcore so many times.  That whole raiding bollocks, the gear and stat naziing, there are definitely some very unfun aspects to the game, that are still in there and still going because they insist on listening to a group of assholes who make up a very small portion of their actual total player base.

They slowly make it a little better with each expansion, but they still cling to a fear of letting those fuckers go, and with each change to try and make it more accessible you get a whole throng of screeching bitches whining about the possibility that someone might actually get on in the game easier than they did.

For a brief shining moment I thought they might acknowledge the problem when they released a quote saying there's be no new raids after Icecrown because "we don't want to continue spending time on content most players will never see", but then they turned right around and fed them another 25-man.

It's ridiculous.  Solo content is what made the game standaout and assert it's dominance in the first place, and yet solo content is the only kind of new content you actually have to pay extra for just to get more of in the form of expansions.  New raids are almost always free.

Quote from: J Arcane;389817It's ridiculous.  Solo content is what made the game standaout and assert it's dominance in the first place, and yet solo content is the only kind of new content you actually have to pay extra for just to get more of in the form of expansions.  New raids are almost always free.

I don't play WoW.  There, I said it, and I stand by my position.

Are 'raids' just something like a huge, constantly re-spawning megadungeon that groups just pile into for hours at a time?

Quote from: StormBringer;389823I don't play WoW.  There, I said it, and I stand by my position.

Are 'raids' just something like a huge, constantly re-spawning megadungeon that groups just pile into for hours at a time?

Dungeons in WoW are instanced, pre-designed dungeons.  Raid dungeons are essentially extra large versions of these, designed for massive numbers of players, and usually with a deliberately ludicrous level of difficulty so as to force everyone in said raid to have to follow certain strategies and character strictures to succeed.  Originally in pre-expansion WoW these were usually 40 player dungeons, with a few 20 mans of secondary priority and significantly lesser gear rewards.  Currently the tiers come in 10-man and 25-man forms, in either normal or "Heroic" difficulty, the latter of both being the only one anyone bothers with as despite it's inordinate difficulty it's also the one with the better gear.

In the upcoming expansion they are supposedly making ALL raids 10-man only, to make them more possible for smaller guilds, but they're also claiming they'll be even MORE difficult, in an attempt to pander to the "hardcore" set that threw a goddamn fit about the change.

Quote from: J Arcane;389826Dungeons in WoW are instanced, pre-designed dungeons.  Raid dungeons are essentially extra large versions of these, designed for massive numbers of players, and usually with a deliberately ludicrous level of difficulty so as to force everyone in said raid to have to follow certain strategies and character strictures to succeed.  Originally in pre-expansion WoW these were usually 40 player dungeons, with a few 20 mans of secondary priority and significantly lesser gear rewards.  Currently the tiers come in 10-man and 25-man forms, in either normal or "Heroic" difficulty, the latter of both being the only one anyone bothers with as despite it's inordinate difficulty it's also the one with the better gear.

In the upcoming expansion they are supposedly making ALL raids 10-man only, to make them more possible for smaller guilds, but they're also claiming they'll be even MORE difficult, in an attempt to pander to the "hardcore" set that threw a goddamn fit about the change.

Thanks!  Interesting development trend, actually.

But it sounds like my decision to avoid WoW by installing Linux is looking better all the time.  

Quote from: StormBringer;389827Thanks!  Interesting development trend, actually.

But it sounds like my decision to avoid WoW by installing Linux is looking better all the time.  

Slight correction: They aren't removing 25-man raids, they're just making them the same loot as 10-mans so they aren't required to progress up the loot tree.

It's a fun game, but the endgame has basically always sucked.  Once you get to cap you either quit the game, or start another character, because the fun parts are already over.

Quote from: J Arcane;389831Slight correction: They aren't removing 25-man raids, they're just making them the same loot as 10-mans so they aren't required to progress up the loot tree.

It's a fun game, but the endgame has basically always sucked.  Once you get to cap you either quit the game, or start another character, because the fun parts are already over.

So, they still need to work on that 'sweet spot at all levels' thing?  

Quote from: StormBringer;389833So, they still need to work on that 'sweet spot at all levels' thing?  

Yeah, sorta.  The way the character talents are now, there's sort of a magic place between 50 and 80 where your character has finally become genuinely kick-ass, but there's still advancement and fun to be had.  Before that it sort of comes and goes, there's definitely rough patches in the progression there.

Once you get to 80 though, your options become limited, especially if you just don't care about gear grind.  You can run random heroics every day to try to get better gear, do dailys for pointless reputation rewards, or raid.  If you have any quests left undone in the world you can do those, or go grind for achievements, but either of these serve little real purpose as they provide basically no real reward.