Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.

One question is, should they:

1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".

2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.

3) Some other option?

just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?

Bingo!

We have a winner!

Quote from: Arkansan on November 10, 2020, 02:30:09 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 11:59:43 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?

This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.

Not really.  He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling.  But he was an actor, and amazing one at that.  His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air.  The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that.  He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it.  So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal.  He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread. 
   Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth.  But again, not as influential as you might think.  The UFC and the Gracies, no  question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing.  I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.

The concept of cross training, breaking fights down in to different ranges, the necessity of having skill in all ranges etc, go back even further than the Gracies. Ancient Greek Pankration was essentially anything goes fighting that was practiced for nearly a 1000 years. Edward Barton Wright combined English Boxing, Savate, Jiu Jitsu, and folk styles of Wrestling back in the late 1800's, his gym had instructors in each art and cross training was considered essential. French self defense exponents were doing the same thing from the late 1800's to the 1910's, combining Savate, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu in to a system typically called Defense Dans La Rue.

Hell France had it's "UFC 1" moment in around 1890 or so when a challenge match between a Savate champ and a local Jiu Jitsu instructor ended in a swift take down and arm bar. This sparked a cross training craze, and challenge matches between styles became all the rage. The aforementioned E.B. Wright and many other noted European martial artists of the times took up many public challenges.

Bruce Lee's reputation is mostly due to his silver screen fame. There's really only one account of him fighting, his challenge with Wong Jack Man, that has substantial witness support and the outcome of it is highly contested. Speaking as someone who spent years in the JKD world I personally think Lee lost that fight, though his victory has become popular narrative simply by dint of his students being the most vociferous.

You are correct and I know these things.  I was addressing the influence on modern MMA, its the Gracies, flat out.  They somehow made it look just cool enough to become actually popular.  The challenge matches were a thing, but did not have the advantage of Rorian gracie as a spokesman or the wonders of TV and internet to spread the practicality of what its practitioners were doing.

Quote from: Arkansan on November 10, 2020, 02:30:09 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 11:59:43 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 11:36:43 AM
Isn't jeet kun do (Bruce Lee's 'way of the intercepting fist') considered the ancestor for most modern MMA because of its pragmatism?

This feels like a lot of people faffing about because they want to look good for their buddies.

Not really.  He was the first well known person in the USA to try to get people to divorce themselves from a pure style loyalty and advocate for learning a bit of grappling.  But he was an actor, and amazing one at that.  His ability to practically apply martial arts (fight) is entirely up in the air.  The Gracies were probably the biggest promoters of what has become modern MMA, and as they predate Bruce by a good long ways, I can not give Lee credit for that.  He did encourage cross training though, which very, very few people did after he promoted it.  So I would say his actual effect and influence was minimal.  He was ahead of the times so to speak as to what he said here in the US, but Judo kept dying while Karate kept growing after his book and ideology was widespread. 
   Funny thing is his number 1 (Dan Inosantos) is probably the most cross trained dude on the planet, he can function with striking, grappling (black belt at least in BJJ), knife fighting and so forth.  But again, not as influential as you might think.  The UFC and the Gracies, no  question are the only reason MMA, and it being all over pop culture are a thing.  I think Bruce was smart enough to tell the people the truth, but in his movies he showed them what they wanted to believe.

The concept of cross training, breaking fights down in to different ranges, the necessity of having skill in all ranges etc, go back even further than the Gracies. Ancient Greek Pankration was essentially anything goes fighting that was practiced for nearly a 1000 years. Edward Barton Wright combined English Boxing, Savate, Jiu Jitsu, and folk styles of Wrestling back in the late 1800's, his gym had instructors in each art and cross training was considered essential. French self defense exponents were doing the same thing from the late 1800's to the 1910's, combining Savate, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu in to a system typically called Defense Dans La Rue.

Hell France had it's "UFC 1" moment in around 1890 or so when a challenge match between a Savate champ and a local Jiu Jitsu instructor ended in a swift take down and arm bar. This sparked a cross training craze, and challenge matches between styles became all the rage. The aforementioned E.B. Wright and many other noted European martial artists of the times took up many public challenges.

Bruce Lee's reputation is mostly due to his silver screen fame. There's really only one account of him fighting, his challenge with Wong Jack Man, that has substantial witness support and the outcome of it is highly contested. Speaking as someone who spent years in the JKD world I personally think Lee lost that fight, though his victory has become popular narrative simply by dint of his students being the most vociferous.

Regarding JKD, I have to say my experience with people who have trained and moved in those circles is interesting.  The thing is, it can be hard to tell who did what with who I guess.  I have met some guys who were extremely proficient and competent (I think Dan I. has to be a gold standard for the intentions of JKD) and some other people who made me worry if they escaped from an insane asylum.   But then again, I think that might just be a martial arts thing and not exclusive to JKD.  It just seems a bit more noticeable with JKD because it can be tricky for people making those links back to Bruce Lee. 

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:07:07 PM

Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 02:03:13 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 01:37:52 PM

Quote from: RandyB on November 10, 2020, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?

Government officials who make decisions about what soldiers learn is largely based on who is the best salesman.  Has about zero to do with the most practical.  They were learning kung fu pressure points at one point.  Now though, the guys who sold combatives to the  army (I know one of the dudes) based heavily on BJJ, KIckboxing, and knife techniques (that they flat out took from Fairbain) were excellent salesmen as well as extremely skilled at practical martial arts.  So the answer regarding fairbane is his spirit and many of his techniques (especially around knife techniques) are back in the army, just not under his name necessarily.

I share your observations about military training.

So by this, Fairbairn himself is persona non grata, but his training has been "rebranded' and assimilated into others' work. Definitely a strong possibility.

Hey I can tell you it is a 100 percent fact.  Like I said I know the guy who cooked up the SoCOM training stuff and was Larsen's less publicly known partner in pitching it to the Army.  Other branches all have some version of the combatives they sold, and I know as I said Fairbairns system is the root of their blade work.  But branding matters, and judging from the ENORMOUS compensation the fellow I know has gotten from the US Army, I guess it matters  a whole lot.

Ah. Thanks for confirming!

I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'

I agree, and if you look at actual history, the most respected skills in almost EVERY culture is some form of wrestling/grappling.   I am sure that has alot to do with throwing a dude on the ground first, makes stabbing him in a soft spot when he is armored a whole lot easier.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'

As someone who has training in both (A LOT of boxing (competed amateur), some wrestling, judo, and "drive-thru kung fu" at a strip mall place), I think it's all based on kung fu movies. Once you reach a reasonable level in any legitimate martial art, you are miles ahead of someone without training, or even someone with training in an allegedly "superior" form. In a straight-up fight, I'd take a collegiate wrestler over anyone below black belt in ANY oriental martial art, it wouldn't even be close. When you start talking about BJJ or something, the very highest levels are probably going to fare better, but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer? Good luck! That said, once you start adding in weapons, that changes the entire dynamic, and honestly I'd rather have a .45 than be a 97th level Shaolin master.

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 04:28:47 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'

As someone who has training in both (A LOT of boxing (competed amateur), some wrestling, judo, and "drive-thru kung fu" at a strip mall place), I think it's all based on kung fu movies. Once you reach a reasonable level in any legitimate martial art, you are miles ahead of someone without training, or even someone with training in an allegedly "superior" form. In a straight-up fight, I'd take a collegiate wrestler over anyone below black belt in ANY oriental martial art, it wouldn't even be close. When you start talking about BJJ or something, the very highest levels are probably going to fare better, but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer? Good luck! That said, once you start adding in weapons, that changes the entire dynamic, and honestly I'd rather have a .45 than be a 97th level Shaolin master.

I agree about the wrestler, but it is not in any way a fair comparison between two similar things.  A wrestling room is there to weed out the weak and make the strong stronger, not to spread the joy of training and learning wrestling to everyone.  Boxing is largely in the same boat.  IT doesnt take high level BJJ guys do be fine against wrestlers and boxers, but levels are sort of relative, a purple belt takes about 5 years to get and the average to black is 9-10.  Most martial arts black is between 2-5 years, and 2-5 years is not enough to deal with a guy who wrestled in college. As to a HW prize fighting boxer, I would give a guy with 6 years of BJJ training a better chance than a guy who boxed for 12 years against that same boxer.  Because if you are trying to hit a HW top end boxer, no matter how you are trying to hit him, your time is short.

  I do agree for the most part with the assessment regarding what happens when rubber hits the road with regard to how people may view martial arts though.  I enjoy discussing it, and do not want anyone to take my specifications as argument. 

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.

just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?

It seems to me that there's a lot of overlap between people interested in MMA and HEMA and fans of Conan. There's a lot of people who are interested in European and other non-Asian martial arts.

I'm not a fan of either MMA or HEMA per se, but I consider the issue - and I still bought the OGL Conan books and played the system. I haven't bought Modiphius yet, but that's not from lack of interest in Conan.

Quote from: Melan on November 09, 2020, 02:06:11 PM
Yeah, that's right! In the never-ending march of Progress, Conan is next: the Conan RPG has been brought in line with "a cultural consultant's recommendations that created a more rounded and well-developed representation".

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.

I'm perfectly happy with my collection of OGL Conan.

True. But we are seeing this insane cult spreading their venom to every corner of gaming and if we do not point out these lies they compulsively spread every day. Then we can and will and are being not so slowly edged out of gaming in one way or another.

That and in this case its another example of the cult defiling things popular or well known.

Remember "You can not have George Washington in a historic game because he was RACIST!" no. I kid you not. That is what a publisher told a designer.

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 05:19:42 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.

just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?

It seems to me that there's a lot of overlap between people interested in MMA and HEMA and fans of Conan. There's a lot of people who are interested in European and other non-Asian martial arts.

I'm not a fan of either MMA or HEMA per se, but I consider the issue - and I still bought the OGL Conan books and played the system. I haven't bought Modiphius yet, but that's not from lack of interest in Conan.

I bought the modiphius book a few years ago. I am a bit of a fan, and though I do not like the 2d20 system, I think the book looks excellent and tone and flavor are true to conan without having to have a naked lady on every page of the book.  But I think since I have multiple versions (the OGL one, which IMO about as good as d20 can present Conan) and GURPS, I think both of those are more fun, and probably represent the flavor of the genre better for me.   So I never got any more of them.  IMO if they were really interested in selling books they should shitcan that 2d20 and forget worrying with martial arts triggering some feels or having the East be mysterious (WHICH IT WAS TO ALL WESTERN NATIONS AS IT WAS A LONG WAYS AWAY) and get a better system.

Quote from: TJS on November 10, 2020, 01:57:25 PM
It was obviously dissonant when it was released however.  Conan stories are full of scantily clad young women who are all overcome by Conan's inherent manliness.

Um... not really. More than a few of the stories dont even have women in them. Or they arent exactly interested in him, or are on par with him, etc and so on.

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 04:28:47 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 10, 2020, 04:12:00 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the primacy of Eastern martial arts over Western close-combat styles is a little overrated -- usually due to the 'exoticism factor' that we all trip over. Western combat techniques through the Renaissance were a lot less 'flynning' and a lot more 'get close, trap opponent's sword arm, then beat the fuck out of his face with your swordhilt or shank him with your off-hand blade.'

As someone who has training in both (A LOT of boxing (competed amateur), some wrestling, judo, and "drive-thru kung fu" at a strip mall place), I think it's all based on kung fu movies. Once you reach a reasonable level in any legitimate martial art, you are miles ahead of someone without training, or even someone with training in an allegedly "superior" form. In a straight-up fight, I'd take a collegiate wrestler over anyone below black belt in ANY oriental martial art, it wouldn't even be close. When you start talking about BJJ or something, the very highest levels are probably going to fare better, but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer? Good luck! That said, once you start adding in weapons, that changes the entire dynamic, and honestly I'd rather have a .45 than be a 97th level Shaolin master.

I won't dispute your points, but I will say that these things are very situational.  In my experience a "straight-up fight" is less common than other scenarios in real life.  A couple of anecdotes, and I hope this does not look like bragging - I just want to share my experience.

In one case a friend who was a college wrestler wanted to see what I could do against him with three years of hapkido training, which was all I had at the time.  I knocked him out (accidentally) in less than 5 seconds.  My big advantage in that case was that he didn't take my training seriously.  I caught him by surprise when I was actually able to do something effective.  I don't know if things would have been different in a rematch.  On the other hand, in most of the fights we simulate in RPGs, there aren't rematches because the loser is dead.

In two other situations I was up against a guy with a gun, still at my same level of training.  In both cases they got too close to me.   The big advantages of a gun vs unarmed melee are range and the fact that a bullet can't be parried.  Take away the range advantage and things even out somewhat.  So again, it's situational.