Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 10, 2020, 04:17:06 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 10, 2020, 03:33:37 AM
GURPS Conan and D20 Conan are both good for source material, even if you're not into those systems.

Is there an OSR Conan with the serial numbers barely filed off?

D20 Conan was actually OGL Conan. It was printed on the spine of the core rulebook of both editions.

I'm sure somebody could make an OSR version quite easily. And it's pretty much my favorite D20 based fantasy game.

I'm pretty sure I saw a Castles and Crusades adaptation floating around not long ago.

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PMYou can cite training all you want, but the ability to deal pure brute force will override any amount of training. Once you get to the athletic abilities of us mere mortals, training is going to be much more relevant, of course.

This reminds me why I get annoyed by so many game mechanics that favor dexterity/agility hand-to-hand fighters over strength/power fighters. I think both are important, but I get really tired of systems that allow the fast/agile guy to avoid every blow and also hit harder than the powerful/strong guy. I also tend to like dice pool systems that allow sufficient ability score/attribute to compensate for low skill level (although having both is even better, of course).

The problem with KM is that many of their instructors have dubious credentials. That, and a system that is essentially just a 'cut down' traditional Martial Arts system but practiced in combat boots. Always do an instructor check on any of these guys. A lot of the time it's just about $$$. I would also personally AVOID any Oriental martial arts.

IMO, the quickest route to 'self-defence' (or self-protection I should say). Is 'principal based learning' combined with a striking art. Such as boxing to Mauy Thai. I would say MMA. Hoverer, there's a lot of time spent grappling and using the floor. If you're looking for something that is purely for self-protection, there's no need to spend that much time rolling on the mats. If you love it, and enjoy the sport then that's a different matter.

Take your striking art and now apply it to 'street scenarios' and serious pressure testing. Avoidance is always the best policy of course. Fighting is always the worst option.

For basic self-protection I would highly recommend picking up a book called, 'the three Second fighter' By Geoff Thompson. It basically breaks down what happens in a real street fight and why traditional martial arts crumbles under pressure.

Actually, I just found the whole Three Second Fighter video on YT. Well worth a watch! Don't mind the poor quality as it was filmed in the 90s. The content is gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctZtDTnyppw

If you want to learn more about 'The Fence' Here's the whole video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETLWajTDzvE
Geoff Thomspon didn't invent the fence but he brought it to notoriety in  the 90s. It's a staple in any good self-defence system.

On the Combatives side of things - You can't go wrong with anything by Lee Morrison: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtfZTdRCfEoRYRqzBUur3lA
Or anything by Kelly McCann or Carl Cestari.

The big problem, with a lot of other so-called self-defence 'experts' is they ride on the coat tails of others and sell you a watered down version of something that they really have no clue about. Unfortunately, this is also applicable to Combatives. Some people are teaching 'combatives' and yet they have no idea of the actual principals. It's about $$$$$.

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 04:42:29 PM
  I agree about the wrestler, but it is not in any way a fair comparison between two similar things.  A wrestling room is there to weed out the weak and make the strong stronger, not to spread the joy of training and learning wrestling to everyone.  Boxing is largely in the same boat.  IT doesnt take high level BJJ guys do be fine against wrestlers and boxers, but levels are sort of relative, a purple belt takes about 5 years to get and the average to black is 9-10.  Most martial arts black is between 2-5 years, and 2-5 years is not enough to deal with a guy who wrestled in college. As to a HW prize fighting boxer, I would give a guy with 6 years of BJJ training a better chance than a guy who boxed for 12 years against that same boxer.  Because if you are trying to hit a HW top end boxer, no matter how you are trying to hit him, your time is short.

A pro boxer would cave the skull in of any non-professional athlete. You can cite training all you want, but the ability to deal pure brute force will override any amount of training. Once you get to the athletic abilities of us mere mortals, training is going to be much more relevant, of course. And I'd still say a college wrestler who actually wrestles regularly is going to have better conditioning and strength than anyone doing BJJ unless they also spar all the time, like literally are sparring multiple times a week for hours total.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 05:39:40 PM
I won't dispute your points, but I will say that these things are very situational.  In my experience a "straight-up fight" is less common than other scenarios in real life.  A couple of anecdotes, and I hope this does not look like bragging - I just want to share my experience.

Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).

RE: my own experience, I actually was good at judo as a white belt because I could easily overpower most people who had a lot of training. Just pure strength was enough to overcome their superior skill. The green belt dudes where about where I petered out, just because they were SO much better than me and knew how to nullify any sort of strength advantage I had. I never faced a black belt, but I'm sure he would have kicked my ass from here to oblivion.

There's no such thing as a "straight-up fight" outside of organized sports, which is why this is always a pointless exercise.

   Professional boxer is a WIDE gulf in my personal experience.  I have seen pros who go out and get DQ'd so they can fight in two weeks and use the money they get to buy drugs.   The training I cite is based on similar levels of athletic ability.  I have trained with quite a few professional athletes.  At one time I compare favorably with most of them physical performance wise.  The freaks (Tim Kennedy comes to mind) are another story, but those guys are freaks at the elite level.   I wont disagree a professional fighter is going to beat the shit out of a non pro, but I have seen enough things at this point to have an opinion fully flavored soley in actual results and not theories.  The one thing that holds is you can still only work out percentages, not absolutes.  As to BJJ guys sparring for hours in a week....I guess you have never trained any BJJ?  because 70 percent of training time is sparring at most places.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 11, 2020, 03:37:32 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 06:18:42 PM
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked...

I don't mind partly turning it into a martial arts thread.  I moved here from ENWorld and RPG.net because of SJW idiocies, but that doesn't mean that's what I always want to talk about.

Since you sound knowledgeable, what would you recommend as a practical martial art for use outside the dojo?  I'm always looking to learn new things and was considering Krav Maga as my next step, which you seem not to care for.  Past experience is hapkido, ishinryu, tang soo do, and bits and pieces of a lot of other styles.

Same question to anyone who's interested in putting in their two bits.

 

If you already know how to poke someone in the eyes and kick nuts, I think KM loses some value.  I would say you already know how to kick and punch, try Judo or BJJ.  People constantly say some pretty silly things like "You dont want to be rolling around...."  But the fact is, you might be rolling around when you didnt want to be, and the other one is, if I am good at BJJ and you are not, the amount of "rolling around" is going to be me strangling you to limbo in about 5-6 seconds.   That is about all the rolling you offer me if you are clueless.

  I would also say, if you are looking at a disparity in physical ability, size, power, athleticism, etc.  BJJ is your best bet (unarmed).  I started with striking (kicboxing, boxing and Dutch syled kickboxing) and still enjoy training.  But one thing I have seen in 28 years, when it comes to making power you have it or you do not when it comes to across weight class scary power.  Everyone can improve, but the ability to have the touch of death is a gift from god, not from training.  The ability to affect another person with a strike has an almost exponential path with size.  A 135 pound guy who thinks he is keeping a fit 200 pound man off of him with a powerful strike is living in a fantasy world.  Striking is like shooting a rifle, grappling is a shotgun.  Ever hunt birds in flight with a rifle?  Again, I think people should train for all ranges (including firearms).  But thinking you do not need to train grappling because you dont want to be rolling around on the ground is silly. NO ONE wants to be rolling around on the ground in a street fight.  It just works out, that if you are a mediocre or even poor athlete BJJ is your best chance at having some sort of effective unarmed means to protect yourself. 

   To link back to the origins of the thread, and Conan, Conan exemplifies a dude who can fight at all ranges and most of his training came from growing up hard (I have a feeling bloody fistfight in a Cimmerian village was a daily if not hourly  occurrence) and exemplifies how the gift of one shot power and great reflexes can carry anyone a looooong ways.  I agree that in a lot of RPGs there is always an attempt to bring DEX in line with physical strength with regard to combat prowess.   I always thought the duel in GOT between the mountain and the red viper pointed out that size and strength will ALWAYS be a fantastic "eraser" for mistakes.

Looks like Modipheus shut down the thread about this on their forums because they didn't like the tone and wording of the complaints. Maybe the posters need to get their own sensitivity readers?

Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 06:24:15 PM

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).

Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs.  I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP.  Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner.  After the guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick.  That ended the fight

I would find that absolutely terrifying, to be honest, no matter how much training or gear I had. Hats off to your buddy; I know who I'm hiding behind in the event of a zombie apocalypse (at least until I can get the shotgun loaded).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 09, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
"Martial Arts" is racist now. It's amazing that I can still be surprised by the things that SJWs decide to be offended by.

I always thought that assuming eastern or oriental in front of the words "martial arts'' was racist. Also, assuming that the term only covers unarmed is insane. My favorite martial art is gunjutsu, also known as bangdo. The art of making someone lie down and leave you alone.

Quote from: ponta1010 on November 09, 2020, 08:12:50 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 09, 2020, 07:42:05 PM
If you don't like the product, then don't buy it. Simple as that.

I'm perfectly happy with my collection of OGL Conan.

Yes but what about the people that supported the Kickstarter before it decided to do this?

Are we meant to say 'Hey this isn't what we signed up for, give us a refund'?

Titanic Thompson said it well: "Suckers got no business with their money."

Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:25:01 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 09, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
"Martial Arts" is racist now. It's amazing that I can still be surprised by the things that SJWs decide to be offended by.

I always thought that assuming eastern or oriental in front of the words "martial arts'' was racist. Also, assuming that the term only covers unarmed is insane. My favorite martial art is gunjutsu, also known as bangdo. The art of making someone lie down and leave you alone.

This is the great irony of the current obsession with race.  You have to first reify (treat as a real thing) race, before you can take offence.

There was a whole thread about Dragonlance over at ENworld where multiple posters were saying the portrayal of Goldmoon in Dragonlance art as a blonde white skinned native american was racist.  I pointed out that the whole progressive issue with Elizabeth Warren's DNA test which blew back on her, was because she was supposedly doing the exact same thing those posters were doing - treating Native American identity as an issue of biology.

That's not to say that I think you can just do anything, but the issues are more complex and full of contradictions then they're made out to be and the people shouting the loudest right now generally lack any capacity for analytical nuance.

Quote from: TJS on November 11, 2020, 04:02:23 PMThere was a whole thread about Dragonlance over at ENworld where multiple posters were saying the portrayal of Goldmoon in Dragonlance art as a blonde white skinned native american was racist.  I pointed out that the whole progressive issue with Elizabeth Warren's DNA test which blew back on her, was because she was supposedly doing the exact same thing those posters were doing - treating Native American identity as an issue of biology.

As an actual Native American with blond hair and blue eyes, that actually offends me quite a bit...I guess these people have only seen Hollywood Indians or the South American/Southwest tribes or something.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Titanic Thompson said it well: "Suckers got no business with their money."

Thanks for that...

Quote from: WillInNewHaven on November 11, 2020, 03:25:01 PM
I always thought that assuming eastern or oriental in front of the words "martial arts'' was racist. Also, assuming that the term only covers unarmed is insane. My favorite martial art is gunjutsu, also known as bangdo. The art of making someone lie down and leave you alone.

I always heard it called "Ka-Ching Buddism" as in; "Ka Ching... Budda Budda Budda!!!" 

Quote from: TJS on November 11, 2020, 05:03:21 AM
I'm pretty sure I saw a Castles and Crusades adaptation floating around not long ago.

Thank you! I just hunted this down.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ho4a6ujfcp3ks6/AADSp_TdvgS4oVyqrOMz0Vema/C%26C%20Conan%20Rules%20v2%5B1%5D.pdf?dl=0

There was a C&C Dark Sun there too!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ho4a6ujfcp3ks6/AADzyIcnSyaw0wUQEJOowYMpa/C%26C%20Dark%20Sun%20Adaptation.pdf?dl=0

No idea if they're good. Need some free time to read through them.