One possibility I've thought about is contacting the owners of REH rights, rather than Mophidius itself. Quite frankly I'm fine with the license being pulled from Mophidius if this is what's going to happen. At this stage I'm struggling to work out what direct effect on sales of Conan books/licenses would come about from these actions by Mophidius apart from nebulous warnings of indirect SJW creep.

Comics would seem to be a primary example, but this came about from choices made directly by those companies, rather than the actions of other allied entities as it were.

Can anyone provide better examples of what I'm talking about, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 04:42:29 PM
  I agree about the wrestler, but it is not in any way a fair comparison between two similar things.  A wrestling room is there to weed out the weak and make the strong stronger, not to spread the joy of training and learning wrestling to everyone.  Boxing is largely in the same boat.  IT doesnt take high level BJJ guys do be fine against wrestlers and boxers, but levels are sort of relative, a purple belt takes about 5 years to get and the average to black is 9-10.  Most martial arts black is between 2-5 years, and 2-5 years is not enough to deal with a guy who wrestled in college. As to a HW prize fighting boxer, I would give a guy with 6 years of BJJ training a better chance than a guy who boxed for 12 years against that same boxer.  Because if you are trying to hit a HW top end boxer, no matter how you are trying to hit him, your time is short.

A pro boxer would cave the skull in of any non-professional athlete. You can cite training all you want, but the ability to deal pure brute force will override any amount of training. Once you get to the athletic abilities of us mere mortals, training is going to be much more relevant, of course. And I'd still say a college wrestler who actually wrestles regularly is going to have better conditioning and strength than anyone doing BJJ unless they also spar all the time, like literally are sparring multiple times a week for hours total.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 05:39:40 PM
I won't dispute your points, but I will say that these things are very situational.  In my experience a "straight-up fight" is less common than other scenarios in real life.  A couple of anecdotes, and I hope this does not look like bragging - I just want to share my experience.

Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).

RE: my own experience, I actually was good at judo as a white belt because I could easily overpower most people who had a lot of training. Just pure strength was enough to overcome their superior skill. The green belt dudes where about where I petered out, just because they were SO much better than me and knew how to nullify any sort of strength advantage I had. I never faced a black belt, but I'm sure he would have kicked my ass from here to oblivion.

There's no such thing as a "straight-up fight" outside of organized sports, which is why this is always a pointless exercise.

Quote from: oggsmash on November 10, 2020, 02:20:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2020, 02:19:11 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 12:10:19 PM
Modiphius you shower of dumb fucks. There are plenty of Western Martial Arts.

W. E. Fairbairn ring any bells, No?

Agreed. Game mechanically, it's an interesting question. Originally, they had a talent tree for "martial arts" which is actually for Asian martial arts - with a lot of emphasis on unarmed but also some armed technique. That's wrong, a number of people seem to agree.

One question is, should they:

1) Keep the same talent tree and just rename it "Asian Martial Arts"? Then they could potentially add another talent tree for "European Martial Arts".

2) Instead split it up, and have a "Unarmed Martial Arts" talent tree and add armed techniques into other armed fighting talent trees.

3) Some other option?

just leave it alone because the only people who would have ANY issue with it at all were never going to buy the book in the first place?

Pretty much. Plus also, I don't think that there is (or should be) much (if any) fundamental difference between "Eastern", "Western" or any other type of Martial Art in purely mechanistic game terms. Most real life differences between styles are mostly superficial stylistic differences anyway, as well as in terms of what sort of techniques are emphasized in any given style (striking, grappling, evasion, weapons, fists vs kicks, etc.). In game terms, most Martial Arts related abilities tend to be situational damage or defensive bonuses, or special maneuvers like takedowns and such. That sort of thing can pretty much apply to ANY martial arts style from any part of the world. You don't need one hundred thousand variations of what's essentially a "Melee Weapon Damage Bonus", "Unarmed Damage Bonus", etc., to cover every single superficially different style from every region around the globe. Just make "Martial Arts" Martial Arts and leave the character's style for their backstory.

Tangential question: what happened to Fairbairn's training and trainees after WWII? From everything I can find, Fairbairn's training simply vanished, except for a series of publications from Paladin Press in the 70s and 80s. Or was it subsumed into other training and Fairbairn's influences left unmentioned?
[/quote]

Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked...

Fairbairn's legacy is alive and well... However, it's gone through a number of changes and has largely remained a relatively underground close combat system. Post WW II most people hadn't the appetite for that type of brutal training anymore. But it was still being taught to the US/UK forces (and others, especially Spec. Ops.) To cut a long story short, Oriental martial arts became very trendy in the 70s/80s and took the world by storm. Due to all those wacky ninja movies and the like. As OP said, a lot of these Oriental Martial Artist black belt 'characters' were good salesmen. And were only too happy to sell their bloated and unworkable systems to the military.

The pinnacle of the American Unarmed combat syllabus was in the mid 80's. Completely reworked by Kelly McCann and Bob Kasper. Their lineage relates directly back to Fairbairn, Col. Rex Applegate, Styers, etc. Of course, McCann modernized and optimized the system, and tested it all over the world. A lot of WWII Combatives (or Close Quarter Combat) has been passed onto us civvies. The state of Combatives now (if you're training with the right people of course) has been merged with 'self-protection' (not to be mistaken for self-defense). It is 'proactive' as opposed to reactive like the later.

The state of military unarmed combat is generally in a poor state and often now follows sporting trends. Such as BJJ in the 90s. Which was a bizarre choice for operational Marines. Imagine taking someone to the ground and rolling about while dressed in heavy ballistic combat gear and with a chunky utility belt.

Lastly, Krav Maga has nothing to do with western combatives. Any recent similarities, are just KM ripping off Combatives. KM is basically traditional Martial Arts in cammo pants - despite what the marketing purports. Meh.

Interestingly enough, Fairbain disliked the term Martial Arts. He used the phrase Martial Science and gutter fighting. I guess he felt he felt there was nothing 'arty' about beating the snot out of someone.

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM

There's no such thing as a "straight-up fight" outside of organized sports, which is why this is always a pointless exercise.

I will just repeat the remark a gentleman of the military persuasion once told me.

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Of course it's situational, but I was talking more like some sort of organized fight (like the original UFC) vs. an actual street fight with no rules. In a street fight, the criminal who just shot up some PCP is probably going to eat your face off, regardless of how much of a badass you are on the mat. So, again, gun. You're right about distance; if you have a firearm, use it before someone gets too close or you're going to regret it (hence the bullshit about cops "shooting too soon" being based on pure fantasy).

Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs.  I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP.  Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner.  After the guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick.  That ended the fight

but against a heavy-weight prizefighting boxer?
[/quote]

Yup... Give me a boxer (or a Muay Thai guy) over a kratty black belt any day of the week regardless of their 'dan grade'. LOL.

As a lifelong Conan fan there have always been two versions of Conan. One meant for adults and one meant for kids. Even as a kid myself I picked up on how watered down the regular Marvel Conan comic was compared to the Savage Sword magazines.

One good Conan movie for adults, then a PG one for kids and not nearly as good. The third one with the guyliner wearing Conan, I'm not sure who that one was for. Certainly not me. They even had a kids cartoon for a while.

Its really nothing new for this particular IP. You'd hope that adults would want the adult version rather than something watered down, but I suppose its no surprise that the safe space, perpetual child types would not.

I don't know much about Modiphius outside of buying some (quite nice) Star Trek minis of theirs and their recent purity statement regarding CoC. I will say that if they noticed a bump in revenue after making that statement then it makes sense for them to also do it here, and I imagine they'll probably keep doing it.

A little off topic, there is Conan Exiles, a PC/Console game that channels the adult Conan very well. Slavery, cannibalism, full nudity, and the struggle to survive. There are a few paid DLC with some medieval gear that looks very out of place but other than that, very much the Hyborian Age as I've pictured it. I'm kind of surprised Twitter hasn't gone after it yet.

I can't ask for a refund.  I went in for the pdfs and those are nearly all delivered.  Overall, I've been pretty happy with what they've produced.  Honestly, I'm not even upset with the changes.  I just hate how they did it.

If they hadn't made an announcement of "look at this great thing we did" I never would have known.  I download the draft copies and flip through them, then go back and get the final versions.  But who the heck would compare them side-by-side?  They just had to make it a virtue signal.

Between this and hiring GMS for the Star Trek books and trying to hide it, I'm done with Modiphius.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 06:24:15 PM

Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs.  I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP.  Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner.  After they guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick.  That ended the fight

I laughed too hard at this, or maybe not enough. You seem to have some interesting friends...

I have all the hardcovers released so far and they're excellent.  The marketing promised a game true to Howard and I'd say they delivered as far as I can tell.  Let's see how shitty the next book is.  I'll most likely still buy it.

Edit.  How does one become a "cultural consultant"?

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 09:57:43 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on November 10, 2020, 06:24:15 PM

Apropos of nothing, the PCP case is really interesting in this context, as it seems analogous to certain buff spells in RPGs.  I had a friend who was attacked by a guy on PCP.  Fortunately my friends was both a professional personal weight trainer (and really buff) and a martial arts practitioner.  After they guy didn't go down to a couple of strikes that would have worked on any normal person, he broke the guy's leg with a side kick.  That ended the fight

I laughed too hard at this, or maybe not enough. You seem to have some interesting friends...

You don't know the half of it.  My wife is baffled about how a nice guy like me has so many strange and/or scary friends.

Quote from: Conanist on November 10, 2020, 06:26:37 PMOne good Conan movie for adults, then a PG one for kids and not nearly as good. The third one with the guyliner wearing Conan, I'm not sure who that one was for. Certainly not me. They even had a kids cartoon for a while.

Its really nothing new for this particular IP. You'd hope that adults would want the adult version rather than something watered down, but I suppose its no surprise that the safe space, perpetual child types would not.

1: And a live action TV series.
Hard to believe the 2011 Conan was... Aquaman?
(There was also a Kull movie and a Red Sonja movie.)
Two kids cartoons. Conan the Adventurer, the one with the starmetal weapons and the baby phoenix pet. And Conan and the Young Warriors.
(Darth Vader was going to play Thongor before the movie was cancelled.)

2: I think its more just to virtue signal and probably more outrage marketing ploys.

Quote from: Brad on November 10, 2020, 06:02:31 PMA pro boxer would cave the skull in of any non-professional athlete. You can cite training all you want, but -

This conversation is giving me flashbacks to the GURPS forums.

I have two words for you: overland hiking.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 10, 2020, 06:18:42 PM
Not that I want to hijack the thread and turn it into a thread about Martial Arts. But as you asked...

I don't mind partly turning it into a martial arts thread.  I moved here from ENWorld and RPG.net because of SJW idiocies, but that doesn't mean that's what I always want to talk about.

Since you sound knowledgeable, what would you recommend as a practical martial art for use outside the dojo?  I'm always looking to learn new things and was considering Krav Maga as my next step, which you seem not to care for.  Past experience is hapkido, ishinryu, tang soo do, and bits and pieces of a lot of other styles.

Same question to anyone who's interested in putting in their two bits.