Quote from: James McMurrayYep, that's definitely a problem. I'd say the problem was possibly a GM either not knowing how to handle optimized characters or not having the balls to say "that character doesn't match the genre we agreed on."

Bollocks.  A GM should not have to be expected to go out of his way to cater to the one anomalous member of the party.  not only that, but trying to address the problem systematically by increasing encounter difficulty only excacerbates the problem by further alienating the rest of the party.

It is a social problem, and it needs a social solution.  

And further, shifiting the blame onto the GM from a player problem is just plain jackassery.

Quote from: James McMurray....or not having the balls to say "that character doesn't match the genre we agreed on."

Well that's one way to deal with it. But in some ways it is better if it isn't just the GM saying "no" but the other players joining in too.  I see it more as a problem with misunderstanding when agreeing upon the setting, or someone saying "yes" to the setting and premise but not really meaning it or reneging on it. The latter I feel is my player's problem. He'll blindly agree without thinking it over, and then complain loudly afterwards. It really is a sucky situation. He's improved some but it keeps popping up. I've reached the point of seriously considering not playing with him any more.

P.S. There can still be issues too in some systems where the 'optimization' comes in during character progression. Usually this isn't as bad though.

I don't think I have the "usual" problem of optimization in my campaigns because I customize my games, leaving out stuff that I don't think has a place in my setting. So, players don't really have the option of pointing to the game book when optimizing characters. But they are free to optimize away and to point to my book when doing so.

Having said this, I don't really have a problem when a player does this sort of thing. I guess the only in game problem I ever encountered was when nearly the whole group - the beginning of my tenure as GM with my current group -except the new girl were optimized to the max. It did present a slight hitch during combat...

As long as the players remain within the perimeters set out in my campaign note book with regards to the rules, they can optimize away. I think I don't really care about optimization because I'm not really competitive with my players. If optimization gives them an advantage, so be it. My settings are normally tough, and they should be able to use any advantage they can get.

But my players have never really gone out of their way, to optimize their characters. I mean in my current 2020 campaign, one of my players - a real munchkin - has created a Solo who is so enhanced it's not funny. But he based his character on Don Cheadle's character in Devil in a Blue Dress, so I think it really fits in well with the setting.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: J ArcaneBollocks.  A GM should not have to be expected to go out of his way to cater to the one anomalous member of the party.  not only that, but trying to address the problem systematically by increasing encounter difficulty only excacerbates the problem by further alienating the rest of the party.

It is a social problem, and it needs a social solution.  

And further, shifiting the blame onto the GM from a player problem is just plain jackassery.

1) So you agree with me? Or did you stop reading halfway through the sentence at the "or not"?

2) Yes, exactly it's a social problem. You know, like when the character created doesn't match the genre. Or did you stop reading at the "or not?"

3) When did I say i twas always the GM's fault? Or did you not read where I said "possibly"?

In other words: did you read, or just get pissed off and jump to a response?

Quote from: James McMurrayWhy would a GM want to combat their players having fun?

To me it's only a problem when the player characters start looking the same, when there's only one path to optimization. A party of six chain fighters would be boooooring!

-clash

I used to *hate* "optimization".  One of the other players in our Shadowrun campaign had a Ninja with Wired Reflexes 3 and a Monofilament whip.  There was lots of sitting around while he did all his combat actions ane we... waited.  He'd finish some combat encounters before anyone else even got a chance to move!

Now I think that approach is completely valid.  Why should someone who's figured out how the game is structured be told not to play that way?  You wouldn't tell players of other kinds of games not to make good moves.  If there's a problem with "optimization", and it's not making the game fun for everyone else, I think the problem lies with the game itself.

"Don't Hate The Player; Hate The Game"

Quote from: StuartIf there's a problem with "optimization", and it's not making the game fun for everyone else, I think the problem lies with the game itself.

"Don't Hate The Player; Hate The Game"

You have got to make the game your own. And sometimes this means getting rid of stuff which the group finds disruptive.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: James McMurray1) So you agree with me? Or did you stop reading halfway through the sentence at the "or not"?

2) Yes, exactly it's a social problem. You know, like when the character created doesn't match the genre. Or did you stop reading at the "or not?"

3) When did I say i twas always the GM's fault? Or did you not read where I said "possibly"?

In other words: did you read, or just get pissed off and jump to a response?

Ugh.  Would you please stop slinging that "genre" crap around?  It's not even a default assumption that all games even HAVE genre assumptions in the fashion that you are implying, nor does it have a goddamn thing to do with the issue at hand.

A spike chain fighter or a psi who can nuke whole rooms of enemies all day long are parts of the D&D genre as much as anything else in the game.  That doesn't mean that a player who abuses those builds is any less disruptive to the enjoyment of the rest of the players.

It's an idiotic red herring, which is why I ignored it the first time you brought it up.  You're making silly assumptions about a generic situation that aren't even likely to be the case in all circumstances, when a much more applicable explanation and solution are readily available.  

I've already addressed your other suggestion, so I don't feel the need to repeat my statement regarding that.

And yes, you did specifically blame the GM, in both, the one implying lack of GM skill is to blame, the other GM spinelessness.  You even used insulting phraseology like "not having the balls" to drive that point home remakrably clearly.  

If that was not your intention, then I suggest you consider that you're not conveying your points as clearly as you think you are.

What assumptions am I making? I said "if it's a problem, here are some possible causes." Sure, had I tried to say "these are the only options" I'd be making assumptions. But that's not what I said.

Optimization is a consequence of emphasizing an aspect of life. Yes, killing things and taking their stuff is fun, but it's not the whole of life; or even of adventuring. A more balanced approach to what one does in an RPG would lead to more well rounded characters.

Include more options. Political, diplomatic, social conflict among others. Add banter to your combat, and award experience for particularly good bon mots. Give your players a world, and watch as combat optimization fades away.

You'll always have combat monkeys, some people like a good virtual brawl. But don't focus on one thing to the detriment of others.

Quote from: flyingmiceTo me it's only a problem when the player characters start looking the same, when there's only one path to optimization. A party of six chain fighters would be boooooring!

-clash

Honestly, it was this very thing that prompted me to start this thread. It sort of spiraled out of control as I was typing when I thought of CP2020 and the guy with more metal than meat... as standard.  

But really, what gets  my goat is the endless parade of characters with nearly the exact same 'stuff'.  In this regards Cp2020's full body borgs are actually a welcome relief, as there was never any 'one true list' of gear needed to be optimal.

I don't hate a player for wanting wired reflexes in shadowrun, I hate that every combatant in the game needs them to be 'capable'.  I hate that there is really only one pistol, one smg, one assault rifle, because the 'other choices' are clearly inferior.  It seems in many ways that the 'king of all guns' is really the Assault cannon, and the only real cure for that is to make the characters pay every damn time they haul it out.  Gear replaces character, and yet I love the damn game.

I hate it as a player because I have a hard time thinking about ways to make 'my guy' a unique and beautiful snowflake without crippling him with sub-optimal gear.   That's one thing I think Feng Shui got right above all other things, your gear is generic in stats, its the way you define it (or not) that makes it 'cool'.

Quote from: SpikeHonestly, it was this very thing that prompted me to start this thread. It sort of spiraled out of control as I was typing when I thought of CP2020 and the guy with more metal than meat... as standard.

Spike - all of my posts in this thread have been to you and to your OP. I have no idea what these other guys are talking about... :O

Go my vicious little electrical rodent! Gotta zap them all!

-clash

Well as a player who tends to optimize his characters, I go out of my way to offer suggestions, or as it happens build my fellow player's characters with their input so that everyone can benefit from being über.

I'm playing SR4 right now, and due to our GM having issues with character creation, I'm also the guy who stats up the scary dudes we've been facing for the last three sessions. Two sessions back when one of our runs started going south my character (a homosexual hacker rigger) almost got fried by a Lone Star rigger character that I had built for the GM. It was a damn cool fight both in and out of VR, with both of us hacking each other's stuff. At times I had to offer up suggestions for the GM for what the LS rigger baddy should do to screw me over, or deal with some of the things I did.

Cool fight. Long explination but it boils down to optimizers are a resource, use them.

EDIT I also made it a point to make my character sub optimal at disguise and concealing his signal/IP address which makes me easier to trace, and is sort of a character flaw which I wanted the GM to use to make my life more interesting.