Talks about what everybody uses as their preferred system for D&D-esque adventures got me to want to present what I use:

Spheres of Power (This is the website for the PF version)
Just as a warning: I do like the system so much I became a freelance writer for it (later) so if you feel that compromises my objectivity thats something Im saying upfront.

What is Spheres of Power?
Spheres of Power and might is a 3rd party supplement for pathfinder that pretty much replaces the existing Vancian magic system for PF. It has the following components:

Spheres: In place of schools of magic there are magic spheres. There are more spheres of magic (20+ some extras) than schools because each one is more specialized. Example spheres include: Alteration (Shapeshifting), Conjuration (Summoning Creatures), Creation (Creating objects or modifying them), Dark (Darkness related stuff), Illusion (Yup). There is some overlap in each sphere but each one is generally the best at what they do.

Talents: In place of spells learned or a spellbook, spellcasters get a number of talents they can invest into spheres. This is similar to feats. You must first invest a talent into a sphere to gain its base ability, but can invest further talents to either gain access to other spheres or increase your ability with one you already have.
This is similar to feat trees, but the vast majority (like 90%) of abilities that you can pick don't have pre-requisites except for possessing the base sphere.

For example lets say I want to play a blasty fireball chucking type mage. And lets say for whatever reason I have 5 talents. I can invest 1 into the destruction sphere (The premiere blasty sphere), which gains me access to a ray that simply deals bludgeoning damage. I can invest a talent into the sphere further to then gain the option to make that ray deal fire damage and burn continuously after a hit. I can then invest a further talent to allow myself to make a area of effect type ability in place of a simple ray.

I can then invest into alternate shapes that my blasts could do, or maybe invest in other spheres (Like maybe in conjuration to summon elementals).

Caster Level: Spell slots are removed from the system. In its place, what determines how good a class is at spellcasting is their caster level. In place of each magic class having a caster level equal to their level, they instead gain a caster level sort of like a base attack bonus. Weak magic is 1/2 your level. Medium magic is 3/4 your level, and High magic is 1/1 your level. Your caster level determines your sphere's abilities as well as their DC. And caster level stacks between different classes similarly to base attack bonus.
So a 5th level Wizard (CL 5) and 5th level Bard (CL 3): Would have a total caster level of 8. That 8 would determine the dice of damage he dealt with a destruction sphere blast, as well as its save DCs

Spellpoints: While many sphere abilities can be used as much as you like, stronger abilities draw from your spellpoint pool which is a limited daily resource.
So for instance in the destruction sphere the regular ray blast ability deals 1d6 damage per 2 caster levels (minimum 1d6), however by spending a spellpoint this increases to 1d6 per caster level. Shooting it as just a ray costs no spell points but turning it into an AOE blast effect would cost an additional spell point.

Casting Traditions: A big draw of spheres of power is customizability. By default, spellcasting comes with no further caveats than concentration. You can wear any armor you like and don't need to be verbal when casting (this includes wizards).
However you can create a casting tradition that modifies the way your spells work, by taking on drawbacks that limit your abilities in some way in exchange for some level of benefit (the drawbacks outweigh the benefits so this is mostly for flavor).
For instance I could make the classic mage drawback of no armor, verbal casting, and preparing investable spell points beforehand.

Or lets say I wanted to make my wizard more of a heavy metal rocker pyromancer. I could take requiring a focus (In his case a guitar), and require he succeeds on performance checks in order to cast. In exchange I pick the boon that allows me to make intimidate checks to scare people whenever I succeed.
There are also sphere specific drawbacks that grant extra talents. For example I could take a drawback for destruction that grants me the fire damage type, but prevents me from dealing bludgeoning damage with my attacks.

Traditions are a great tool for customizing the gameworld and emulating different kinds of magic (Dark Suns Defilers or Preservers, Blood Mages, Chaos Magic, exetera). As a GM you of course get the final say.

Advanced Talents:
While most talents have no prerequisites outside of base sphere and no restriction, certain talents are locked away behind explicit GM permission and deal with abilities either too powerful or world altering.

For example the ability to make creation sphere items permanent is locked as an advanced talents. So if the GM doesn't want economies broken he could deny the use of said ability. Other examples of locked abilities include stuff like 'look into the future' divination effects or making tsunamis.

Rituals & Incantations:
As an optional system you may permit some use of classic vancian spells as rituals which function as slow casting spells (requiring minutes to cast) which can be learned and written into spellbooks. So for example if I want to allow long range teleportation (but I don't want it to be a spammable thing in combat) I could allow it in as a ritual, requiring 100 gp per casting, and requiring 2 hours to cast.

Incantations are even more esoteric versions of rituals (Which function like PF rituals from the occult book). Requiring weird pre-requisites or limiations but don't necacarily need you to be a mage to cast them. I could say you need to sacrifice a goat under a fool moon to cast animate object over an idol or something.

Overal benefits:

Its a system that rewards and permits character concepts and overall tones down the power mages have access towards while making magic more accessable for non-mages and makes magical multi-classing much more viable.
Its a VERY GM friendly system that allows you to easily fine tune the kind of magic you want in your game.

The system is free online with a wiki, and a 5e version is in development. Link to the discord with public playtests on the wiki.

What about spheres of might?

There is also a similar system for non-magic users thats compatible from the same company but I lack space to write it here. Also available on the same wiki.

I always tend to get lost when I go to spheres of power (no main menu and way too many links of stuff I don't know about right on the main page; it's also been giving me loading issues), but I've often thought of using something similar for D&D and have tried similar things for homebrewed systems in the past, but more effect-based. I've also done the Caster Level thing, where Caster Levels are treated similar to Base Attack Bonus, and every class grants are least some of it, even if it doesn't have any spell casting abilities.

I like the idea of using 1d6 per two Caster Levels by default at no cost, and full Caster Level by spending Spell Points (though, I don't know how many of these I get). Though, I wonder if 1d6/2 Caster Level attacks with no cost might be too much. That's 10d6 free damage per round by level 20!

I've used similar damage rates in my own effect-based system, but based on effect level and breaking it down into Instant (1d6/Level), Continuous (1/Level/round), and Instrumental (Weapon/Implement: 1d6/2 Levels, +2 at odd levels; effect may have duration and be used to make multiple attacks). And everything causes Strain damage to use.

This seems like a major feat-sink, though, so it would need to be supplemented with extra feats (lots of them). How does Spheres of Power handle that?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1139541I always tend to get lost when I go to spheres of power (no main menu and way too many links of stuff I don't know about right on the main page; it's also been giving me loading issues)

Sadly I can't recommend anything but buying the book. But the main overview of the information is located here.

QuoteI like the idea of using 1d6 per two Caster Levels by default at no cost, and full Caster Level by spending Spell Points (though, I don't know how many of these I get). Though, I wonder if 1d6/2 Caster Level attacks with no cost might be too much. That's 10d6 free damage per round by level 20!

Spellpoints is class based. But 99% of the time is levels+modifying stat (Int for mages) and any extra from feats or casting tradition (Extra spellpoints is the default casting tradition drawback boon).

At level 20 doing 10d6 damage, a round is really not that impressive. That averages out to 35 damage, when even a CR 15 enemy is assumed to have 220 hit points or so. Again the system is well played alongside spheres of might which gives comparable goodies too non-magic characters as well as monsters.

QuoteI've used similar damage rates in my own effect-based system, but based on effect level and breaking it down into Instant (1d6/Level), Continuous (1/Level/round), and Instrumental (Weapon/Implement: 1d6/2 Levels, +2 at odd levels; effect may have duration and be used to make multiple attacks).

Don't super get the detail of what that means, but the destruction sphere has varied effects and costs for them.

QuoteAnd everything causes Strain damage to use.

Which is an option with casting traditions. If you want all magic to be draining (or cause fatigue or madness), that's an option.

QuoteThis seems like a major feat-sink, though, so it would need to be supplemented with extra feats (lots of them). How does Spheres of Power handle that?

In place of spells, classes with sphere as a focus gain from 30-10 or so talents over 20 levels and start with 2 talents. You can also gain a magic talent by investing a feat. You can even grant CL to non-CL classes (low only).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139580Spellpoints is class based. But 99% of the time is levels+modifying stat (Int for mages) and any extra from feats or casting tradition (Extra spellpoints is the default casting tradition drawback boon).

This clarifies things a bit.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139580At level 20 doing 10d6 damage, a round is really not that impressive. That averages out to 35 damage, when even a CR 15 enemy is assumed to have 220 hit points or so. Again the system is well played alongside spheres of might which gives comparable goodies too non-magic characters as well as monsters.

I could probably live with that, but my concern with stuff that's balanced around everyone else also getting access to similar power is that they tend to be balanced only when dealing with characters and creatures of comparable level. But the moment a significantly lower level character or creature crosses a high level character's path they can obliterate them. And high level characters don't exist in a vacuum, but as part of a world where the vast majority of creatures aren't anywhere close to level 20, or even level 10.

However, I like the simplicity of this and how easy it is to remember, as opposed to keeping track of a bunch of superficially different spells that are basically variations of doing damage. With spheres of power all I have to remember is that casters do 1d6/2 Caster Levels by default, or 1d6/Caster Level if I wanna fuel the effect with Spell Points. I don't even need to keep track of arbitrary spell levels, which I've always hated and are one of the biggest sources of spell bloat and bookkeeping.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139580Don't super get the detail of what that means, but the destruction sphere has varied effects and costs for them.

Just a basic breakdown of how I've handled damage effects in my own effect-based system, for comparison purposes, which uses similar amounts of damage to what you posted, but based on different parameters. But that's for a not quite D&D compatible homebrew, so it's kinda neither here nor there. Basically damage effects in my system come in three types for purposes of determining damage:

Instant: High damage effects that inflict or repair damage one-time without duration (like fireballs).
Continuous: Effects with a duration that automatically inflict or repair damage every round.
Instrumental: Damage inflicted through some type of instrument (such as a weapon, or even flaming fists or whatever), which may have a duration and be used to make multiple attacks per round if applicable.

I'll check the Destruction sphere for additional effects and cost when I have the chance.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139580Which is an option with casting traditions. If you want all magic to be draining (or cause fatigue or madness), that's an option.

Sounds interesting. I'll check it out when I have the chance.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139580In place of spells, classes with sphere as a focus gain from 30-10 or so talents over 20 levels and start with 2 talents. You can also gain a magic talent by investing a feat. You can even grant CL to non-CL classes (low only).

I figured it might be something like that. I like the idea that even non-casters can potentially get access to magic through feats.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1139629I could probably live with that, but my concern with stuff that's balanced around everyone else also getting access to similar power is that they tend to be balanced only when dealing with characters and creatures of comparable level. But the moment a significantly lower level character or creature crosses a high level character's path they can obliterate them. And high level characters don't exist in a vacuum, but as part of a world where the vast majority of creatures aren't anywhere close to level 20, or even level 10.

I mean its not really balanced around that as much as it makes everything more interesting. Spheres of Power was released first and was designed as standalone. So was spheres of Might.
While a SOP wizard may last longer, it still very much inhibits what they can do and will be doing.
A transmutation focused wizard could just pick up wail of the banshee and do tons of damage. While reaching a comprable point for a SOP mage would require heavy investment. And fundementally you can always customize them with the ability burn rules or something.

As for making lower level groups threatening I use troop rules. Also makes keeping track of them much easier.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1139686As for making lower level groups threatening I use troop rules. Also makes keeping track of them much easier.

I'm not really familiar with troop rules.

I would also be interested to learn more about Spheres of Might, since that seems to be an area fantasy RPGs tend to lag behind. I've delved into effect-based systems, which could potentially be used to create powers that are "martial" in origin, but I've never really toyed with the idea of making fighters comparable to wizards in terms of tricks and power in a game like D&D, or similar.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1139737I'm not really familiar with troop rules.

Its like swarms but for normal sized creatures.

QuoteI would also be interested to learn more about Spheres of Might, since that seems to be an area fantasy RPGs tend to lag behind. I've delved into effect-based systems, which could potentially be used to create powers that are "martial" in origin, but I've never really toyed with the idea of making fighters comparable to wizards in terms of tricks and power in a game like D&D, or similar.

It works in a similar way. 20+ martial spheres that represent different martial-ish style things (Barrage, Alchemy, Gladiator, Equipment). You use your base attack bonus to determine their effects or DCs for most things. Abilities not based on direct combat (Like say the scout sphere) instead use your ranks in a linked skill (Stealth for Scout, Craft (alchemy) for Alchemy) to determine the strength of their effects (They also tend to give free extra ranks in said skill as part of taking it). On the combat end it works very hard to have martial characters escape the full-round action multi-attack standard.

The abilities err on the functional but plausible side. However legendary talents (optional GM enabled options) allow you to pick more implausible 'herculean or animesque' options. Legendary options are generally not more powerful, just more implausible.
For instance, the Guardian sphere offers mundane ways of guarding people easier (taking their blows, distracting foes) but legendary talents grant implausible benefits (Forcing them to come to you, or damaging them if they don't attack you).

Martial spheres are not limited by a per-day resource, not even spell points. Instead, they have a thing called a martial focus. It's a state of focus you can expend to treat a Fort or Reflex save as if it where a 13 and can be regained by taking a full defensive action. Other sphere abilities grant you more ways of expending said resource or getting it back.

Sniper sphere, for example, allows you to expend it to deal extra damage to a foe, and with a separate talent allows you to regain it when you reload a ranged weapon as a move action or more.

Many sphere abilities are also linked to feats in the sense that they could as them for the purposes of pre-requisites. So taking the barrage sphere counts as having the feat point blank shot and rapid shot for the perposes of meeting the pre-requisites of other feats.
But as a rule of thumb Martial spheres are almost always better than feats. You also gain much more of them from 10-30 for martial sphere focused classes.