The most memorable experiences in RPG are never really about combat in and of itself, they're about character investment.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr

The original D&D game, although derived from a wargame, made this point fairly clear to anyone paying attention. Aside from treasure producing way more XP than combat was the fact that starting characters had 1d6 hit points and the majority of attacks did 1d6 damage. With that knowledge, along with the fact that XP was a way to keep score in the game, it was obvious that running into combat engagements one after the other was not the best way to accumulate XP. Thus the main focus of play was exploration. Explore the environment and try to discover as much treasure as possible and make it out of the dungeon alive with it. There wasn't a good way to know what creatures might be holding good treasure without some investigation first. In an average combat encounter against like level opponents, a 1st level character has roughly a 50% chance of dying (and losing all accumulated XP). Not only that but the XP rules for monsters applied to killing, outwitting, or driving off the monsters. Wandering monsters were a penalty for farting around and being too cautious.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
The original D&D game, although derived from a wargame, made this point fairly clear to anyone paying attention. Aside from treasure producing way more XP than combat

From the way the game is designed, I think the characters were meant to portray Ferengi.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 11:51:58 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
The original D&D game, although derived from a wargame, made this point fairly clear to anyone paying attention. Aside from treasure producing way more XP than combat

From the way the game is designed, I think the characters were meant to portray Ferengi.

  Well, I'm told that Leiber and Vance provided the models for OD&D PCs, and while I'm not familiar with Vance, I can see Ferengiesque qualities in the Twain ...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 18, 2024, 01:19:33 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 18, 2024, 11:51:58 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
The original D&D game, although derived from a wargame, made this point fairly clear to anyone paying attention. Aside from treasure producing way more XP than combat

From the way the game is designed, I think the characters were meant to portray Ferengi.

  Well, I'm told that Leiber and Vance provided the models for OD&D PCs, and while I'm not familiar with Vance, I can see Ferengiesque qualities in the Twain ...

Ferengi are pillars of rules and culture compared to many Vance characters.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
The original D&D game, although derived from a wargame, made this point fairly clear to anyone paying attention. Aside from treasure producing way more XP than combat was the fact that starting characters had 1d6 hit points and the majority of attacks did 1d6 damage. With that knowledge, along with the fact that XP was a way to keep score in the game, it was obvious that running into combat engagements one after the other was not the best way to accumulate XP. Thus the main focus of play was exploration. Explore the environment and try to discover as much treasure as possible and make it out of the dungeon alive with it. There wasn't a good way to know what creatures might be holding good treasure without some investigation first. In an average combat encounter against like level opponents, a 1st level character has roughly a 50% chance of dying (and losing all accumulated XP). Not only that but the XP rules for monsters applied to killing, outwitting, or driving off the monsters. Wandering monsters were a penalty for farting around and being too cautious.

Quite correct.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2024, 08:51:51 AM
The most memorable experiences in RPG are never really about combat in and of itself, they're about character investment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
With that knowledge, along with the fact that XP was a way to keep score in the game, it was obvious that running into combat engagements one after the other was not the best way to accumulate XP. Thus the main focus of play was exploration. Explore the environment and try to discover as much treasure as possible and make it out of the dungeon alive with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 18, 2024, 06:42:19 PM
Quite correct.

Wait. While these agree that combat is not the focus, exploring the dungeon environment sounds very different from "character investment".

Personally, I don't think that RPGs are about any single thing. Different groups will have different focuses. Some groups like and focus on combat, others may like and focus on intrigue or mystery solving, etc.

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 06:50:00 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2024, 08:51:51 AM
The most memorable experiences in RPG are never really about combat in and of itself, they're about character investment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
With that knowledge, along with the fact that XP was a way to keep score in the game, it was obvious that running into combat engagements one after the other was not the best way to accumulate XP. Thus the main focus of play was exploration. Explore the environment and try to discover as much treasure as possible and make it out of the dungeon alive with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 18, 2024, 06:42:19 PM
Quite correct.

Wait. While these agree that combat is not the focus, exploring the dungeon environment sounds very different from "character investment".

Personally, I don't think that RPGs are about any single thing. Different groups will have different focuses. Some groups like and focus on combat, others may like and focus on intrigue or mystery solving, etc.

Greetings!

Yeah, Jhkim. I agree. Different groups, and different *Players* have very different focuses.

I have plenty of players that live for combat. Some very much enjoy exploration, travel, and just *experiencing the world*. Meanwhile, others could care less about dungeons or fighting. They are far more into engaging in romance, shopping, going to masquerade balls, parties, and getting involved with politics and relationship drama.

My challenge, of course, is when one or more groups I'm running contains all of these kinds of players. Their entirely different focuses can generally compete against each other, and feeding each of them, almost simultaneously, or at least sequentially, is always a work in progress on my part. Definitely keeps me on my toes!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The thing with combat is that while none of the roleplay aspects of the game actually require it, the player psychologically requires it. Well, perhaps not combat per se, but some form of mechanical difficulty, and considering how hit or miss puzzles can be, combat is the default option. If you don't challenge the players in some way--player and not player characters in this instance--then they will frequently free-wheel and the game will begin to feel less impactful.

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 06:50:00 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2024, 08:51:51 AM
The most memorable experiences in RPG are never really about combat in and of itself, they're about character investment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
With that knowledge, along with the fact that XP was a way to keep score in the game, it was obvious that running into combat engagements one after the other was not the best way to accumulate XP. Thus the main focus of play was exploration. Explore the environment and try to discover as much treasure as possible and make it out of the dungeon alive with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 18, 2024, 06:42:19 PM
Quite correct.

Wait. While these agree that combat is not the focus, exploring the dungeon environment sounds very different from "character investment".

Personally, I don't think that RPGs are about any single thing. Different groups will have different focuses. Some groups like and focus on combat, others may like and focus on intrigue or mystery solving, etc.

Character investment is the meta-experience. It can happen in combat, it can happen during exploration, roleplay, resource management, or other things.  The problem comes in when one of those elements (usually combat) is misunderstood by the GM as the "point" of the game. Inevitably, in fact, they will tend to become tedious; that happens most often in games that are just one combat after another, though it can happen in any of those contexts (even roleplay).

Quote from: jhkim on January 18, 2024, 06:50:00 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 17, 2024, 08:51:51 AM
The most memorable experiences in RPG are never really about combat in and of itself, they're about character investment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 18, 2024, 09:35:14 AM
With that knowledge, along with the fact that XP was a way to keep score in the game, it was obvious that running into combat engagements one after the other was not the best way to accumulate XP. Thus the main focus of play was exploration. Explore the environment and try to discover as much treasure as possible and make it out of the dungeon alive with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 18, 2024, 06:42:19 PM
Quite correct.

Wait. While these agree that combat is not the focus, exploring the dungeon environment sounds very different from "character investment".

Personally, I don't think that RPGs are about any single thing. Different groups will have different focuses. Some groups like and focus on combat, others may like and focus on intrigue or mystery solving, etc.

Character investment ( for D&D type games) builds slowly over time in my experience. After a character survives the first few adventures investment starts to build up. A brand new character has no accumulated XP so losing the character doesn't feel the same as losing a character that has a few levels gained. As the campaign progresses and characters began to formulate goals beyond mere survival and gaining loot, the investment grows even more.

"Combat Was Never The Main Feature of the D&D Experience"

I have to disagree. It began as a type of wargame. Most of the rules, most of the printed matter, revolved around combat. Different people enjoy different things and different groups tried focusing more on related activities, and as the years rolled on we saw different takes on what you could do in this new type of game. But that's not how it was in the early years, and there are plenty of rpgs to this day that are combat simulators first, and you pretty much improvise anything else.

I'll append a big IMO, but you have to as well.

Even today, combat makes up a big chunk of most rpg rules. However, I agree that exploration and social interactions generally account for a much larger part of gameplay. The combat scenes tend to be the intense highlights, like in action/adventure movies.

Quote from: Baron on January 20, 2024, 03:21:56 AM
"Combat Was Never The Main Feature of the D&D Experience"

I have to disagree. It began as a type of wargame. Most of the rules, most of the printed matter, revolved around combat. Different people enjoy different things and different groups tried focusing more on related activities, and as the years rolled on we saw different takes on what you could do in this new type of game. But that's not how it was in the early years, and there are plenty of rpgs to this day that are combat simulators first, and you pretty much improvise anything else.

I'll append a big IMO, but you have to as well.

Certainly a lot of groups played the game as simply a string of fights, but unless extraordinary measures were used by the DM to keep PCs alive it would be nothing but a series of grinding 1st level characters to death, roll a new group of PC's, repeat. The math of the game,as written did not support such a playstyle. If the players decide that their goal is to just go kill as many things as possible then the game certainly allows them to try, but with a roughly 50% chance to die in an average encounter the PCs will have short careers for certain.

Unless the DM intervened to and gave support for this playstyle the players had a choice of either grinding through PCs or actually trying to win by getting out of the dungeon alive with as much treasure as possible.

Quote from: Baron on January 20, 2024, 03:21:56 AM
"Combat Was Never The Main Feature of the D&D Experience"

I have to disagree. It began as a type of wargame. Most of the rules, most of the printed matter, revolved around combat. Different people enjoy different things and different groups tried focusing more on related activities, and as the years rolled on we saw different takes on what you could do in this new type of game. But that's not how it was in the early years, and there are plenty of rpgs to this day that are combat simulators first, and you pretty much improvise anything else.

I'll append a big IMO, but you have to as well.

The earliest edition of D&D didn't even include combat rules.