Saw the kickstarter awhile and its available on Drivethru (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133245/Cold-Steel-Wardens-Roleplaying-in-the-Iron-Age-of-Comics). After watching the netflix Daredevil series my Street Level Supers sense is tingling and I'm curious about this system. Has anyone gotten or, better yet, played or run it?
Never even heard of it until now.
Another good game for the Daredevil/Power Man & Iron Fist/Black Panther level is Heroes Unlimited, particularly when paired with Ninjas & Superspies to give more cool martial arts options. Just toss out random powers and build what sounds cool and it works well because of the badass combat system. Honestly!
I have, it's... Interesting. I've found that it's supposed influences are ore Noir than 'Iron Age', and the combat can be very lethal very quickly. In fact, I found that I have to use minions sparingly.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;829557I have, it's... Interesting. I've found that it's supposed influences are ore Noir than 'Iron Age', and the combat can be very lethal very quickly. In fact, I found that I have to use minions sparingly.
That's odd. "Mook bashing" is a pretty big staple in most street level supers type stories I'm familiar with. Its more dangerous on that level but rarely deadly so the point of best to avoid it if at all possible. Unless the minions are pretty special.
Wonder how well it would run the old DC Heroes Watchmen modules...
Hey, guys!
I'm actually the author of CSW. If you have questions or want to know some more about the system, I'd be happy to answer anything you might have.
And yes, mooks can still pack a punch, especially if they have guns and you're using the "mook rule" that allows them to attack as a unit, rather than individually. If they're not careful, a hero can go down quickly under a hail of concentrated gunfire.
Quote from: APKlosky;829634Hey, guys!
I'm actually the author of CSW. If you have questions or want to know some more about the system, I'd be happy to answer anything you might have.
And yes, mooks can still pack a punch, especially if they have guns and you're using the "mook rule" that allows them to attack as a unit, rather than individually. If they're not careful, a hero can go down quickly under a hail of concentrated gunfire.
And for my games, was a bit too brutally hard. I lost all three players with a run in with a trio of Rojo Bastardes. Some basic pistols, no real armour on either side, it wasn't funny.
For now we're looking to tweak the system.
What's the system like?
Quote from: Matt;829530Another good game for the Daredevil/Power Man & Iron Fist/Black Panther level is Heroes Unlimited, particularly when paired with Ninjas & Superspies to give more cool martial arts options. Just toss out random powers and build what sounds cool and it works well because of the badass combat system. Honestly!
Haha hell yeah. I've been planning a Gotham City game using that pair for some time.
Quote from: Raven;829658What's the system like?
Haha hell yeah. I've been planning a Gotham City game using that pair for some time.
I'm trying to see if I can get a Batman/Green Hornet/Bionic Woman pulpy crimefighter martial arts game going using that combo. For plots there are a million detective/crime shows and books to steal from, just add some thugs and ninjas to beat on and away we go.
Quote from: Matt;829676I'm trying to see if I can get a Batman/Green Hornet/Bionic Woman pulpy crimefighter martial arts game going using that combo. For plots there are a million detective/crime shows and books to steal from, just add some thugs and ninjas to beat on and away we go.
Yes, absolutely, it would work for that. For what it's worth, the current pre-gens I use for conventions are effectively takes on Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Catwoman, Hawkeye/Green Arrow, Kitty Pryde, and Marv (from Sin City).
The system is something of a hybrid between a d10 dice-pool and a difficulty vs. system. Heroes' Vitals range on a scale of 1-10, with the average Joe having 3s across the board. The system, however, is mainly skill-based: there are 25 skills (in 5 categories) which Heroes use to accomplish tasks. Powers and Skills use the same unified mechanic: roll dice, tally hits on dice, add applicable Vital to the hits.
APKlosky, is the print edition going to be more widely available anytime soon? So far I've only seen it at Leisure Games UK.
Since the whole Chronicle City situation is far from clear, I'd rather not risk (pre-)ordering directly from them at the moment.
Quote from: APKlosky;829684Yes, absolutely, it would work for that. For what it's worth, the current pre-gens I use for conventions are effectively takes on Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Catwoman, Hawkeye/Green Arrow, Kitty Pryde, and Marv (from Sin City).
The system is something of a hybrid between a d10 dice-pool and a difficulty vs. system. Heroes' Vitals range on a scale of 1-10, with the average Joe having 3s across the board. The system, however, is mainly skill-based: there are 25 skills (in 5 categories) which Heroes use to accomplish tasks. Powers and Skills use the same unified mechanic: roll dice, tally hits on dice, add applicable Vital to the hits.
Mr. Klosky, I think that they were talking about Palladium Books' Heroes Unlimited and Ninjas and Superspies...
Sorry, Christopher--didn't mean to cross-post!
@3rik--I really wish I could give a better answer for you. I haven't been able to get word from Angus or anyone at Chronicle City since September of last year, despite numerous emails and Facebook messages. I have a limited amount of print copies in my possession, as I'm able to order them (at my own expense) and resell them at the conventions I demo CSW at. As for the full print run? I wish I knew.
Quote from: APKlosky;829778Sorry, Christopher--didn't mean to cross-post!
@3rik--I really wish I could give a better answer for you. I haven't been able to get word from Angus or anyone at Chronicle City since September of last year, despite numerous emails and Facebook messages. I have a limited amount of print copies in my possession, as I'm able to order them (at my own expense) and resell them at the conventions I demo CSW at. As for the full print run? I wish I knew.
Well, it must be good to at least see it in stock at Leisure Games then.
Quote from: APKlosky;829778Sorry, Christopher--didn't mean to cross-post!
@3rik--I really wish I could give a better answer for you. I haven't been able to get word from Angus or anyone at Chronicle City since September of last year, despite numerous emails and Facebook messages. I have a limited amount of print copies in my possession, as I'm able to order them (at my own expense) and resell them at the conventions I demo CSW at. As for the full print run? I wish I knew.
Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the book, it's why I bought it, it's got great flavour and a great atmosphere, it's just some of the philosophy behind it that I'm questioning.
That and the severe lack of named Ninja clans/enemies, especially for an Iron Age setting. I've created a couple for my game, and I appreciate that the bestiary section lists a mook template for them, but you should have at least one Yakuza clan mentioned that uses them. :)
Quote from: Christopher Brady;829841Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the book, it's why I bought it, it's got great flavour and a great atmosphere, it's just some of the philosophy behind it that I'm questioning.
That and the severe lack of named Ninja clans/enemies, especially for an Iron Age setting. I've created a couple for my game, and I appreciate that the bestiary section lists a mook template for them, but you should have at least one Yakuza clan mentioned that uses them. :)
It's coming in the follow-up... :P
Quote from: APKlosky;829860It's coming in the follow-up... :P
You've mentioned that, but when you do the prerequisite second edition, might I suggest having one group, not all of them, but at least one criminal organization that uses ninja, preferably Japanese? Like the one Japanese corporation you listed.
Again, just a suggestion, do it or not, it's your book, your game. Do it as you like.
I've gotten the impression that by "Iron Age" comics the game means gritty street level superheroes like Vigilante, Punisher, Daredevil, Luke Cage and similar characters not the overall "Iron Age" of darker more cynical (even nihilistic) comics of all levels (For example, the Authority and Miracle Man). Is that correct?
Quote from: APKlosky;829778Sorry, Christopher--didn't mean to cross-post!
@3rik--I really wish I could give a better answer for you. I haven't been able to get word from Angus or anyone at Chronicle City since September of last year, despite numerous emails and Facebook messages. I have a limited amount of print copies in my possession, as I'm able to order them (at my own expense) and resell them at the conventions I demo CSW at. As for the full print run? I wish I knew.
I think it's time to dump them, and do it yourself. Considering they did the same thing to Steven Trustrum of Misfit Studios, then Joshua Kubli of Imperfekt Games with their books, after 8 months of no contact (and who knows how many sales you might have had during that time), don't you think it's time to just do it yourself?
Quote from: Nexus;829923I've gotten the impression that by "Iron Age" comics the game means gritty street level superheroes like Vigilante, Punisher, Daredevil, Luke Cage and similar characters not the overall "Iron Age" of darker more cynical (even nihilistic) comics of all levels (For example, the Authority and Miracle Man). Is that correct?
Actually, in the case of Cold Steel Wardens, you're dead on, it's the former, if you ignore the whole "PC should fear death" thing that crops up. It's about hard decisions, including whether or not to kill. And most characters will have some major disadvantage.
But I do have my issues, past the sense that this game is less Iron Age, more Comic Noir, for example:
The permanent damage charts are cute, but the issue I have with them is that it takes a very specific crew to understand and deal as some of them are irrecoverable, and you may as well kill the characters anyway, if you don't have that special group of players.
And personally, I find the rules system a tad too lethal for a proper Iron Age game. I don't mind the risk of death or permanent injury in superhero game, but it should not come from less than 5 goons at once, guns or no. For example, all the characters that you listed, Nexus, are mostly solo heroes. The Punisher, the Vigilante, definitely Daredevil, even Luke Cage and Iron Fist, run solo a good chunk of their time, and they often take entire gangs on and win.
Once more, though I want to stress this is my opinion and mine only, but I'm more of the mind that in an Iron Age game, it's how the players deal with the situations for their characters rather than having them risk or even fear death the moment they gear up. Death is always a possibility, but most Vigilantes accept their own as part of the risk they take when they put on the mask. They want to stop the crimes, but sometimes, stopping a crime can hurt more than letting it continue.
Quote from: urbwar;830024I think it's time to dump them, and do it yourself. Considering they did the same thing to Steven Trustrum of Misfit Studios, then Joshua Kubli of Imperfekt Games with their books, after 8 months of no contact (and who knows how many sales you might have had during that time), don't you think it's time to just do it yourself?
Rogue Games moved back with Studio 2 Publishing after their Chronicle City debacle. Perhaps that's a viable option for you as well, APKlosky?
Studio 2 was on my shortlist when I was approaching publishers, but I asked Angus first, given the relationship that we had while I was freelancing for Cubicle 7 on The Laundry Files books. Angus was literally the "go-to" guy then, which I why I felt confident signing the contract with him. We see where that's led...
Quote from: APKlosky;830252Studio 2 was on my shortlist when I was approaching publishers, but I asked Angus first, given the relationship that we had while I was freelancing for Cubicle 7 on The Laundry Files books. Angus was literally the "go-to" guy then, which I why I felt confident signing the contract with him. We see where that's led...
I'm sure Angus has his reasons, but that doesn't make it any less inconvenient.
Has anyone here placed any orders with Chronicle City recently and received their books yet?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;830037Actually, in the case of Cold Steel Wardens, you're dead on, it's the former, if you ignore the whole "PC should fear death" thing that crops up. It's about hard decisions, including whether or not to kill. And most characters will have some major disadvantage.
But I do have my issues, past the sense that this game is less Iron Age, more Comic Noir, for example:
The permanent damage charts are cute, but the issue I have with them is that it takes a very specific crew to understand and deal as some of them are irrecoverable, and you may as well kill the characters anyway, if you don't have that special group of players.
And personally, I find the rules system a tad too lethal for a proper Iron Age game. I don't mind the risk of death or permanent injury in superhero game, but it should not come from less than 5 goons at once, guns or no. For example, all the characters that you listed, Nexus, are mostly solo heroes. The Punisher, the Vigilante, definitely Daredevil, even Luke Cage and Iron Fist, run solo a good chunk of their time, and they often take entire gangs on and win.
Once more, though I want to stress this is my opinion and mine only, but I'm more of the mind that in an Iron Age game, it's how the players deal with the situations for their characters rather than having them risk or even fear death the moment they gear up. Death is always a possibility, but most Vigilantes accept their own as part of the risk they take when they put on the mask. They want to stop the crimes, but sometimes, stopping a crime can hurt more than letting it continue.
Interesting now I am more curious what the creator's thoughts are this on subject.
While I disagree with Christopher's endpoint, I can understand and appreciate his viewpoint and see exactly where he's coming from.
A good deal of the street-level supers contain significant echoes to the noir/pulp detective stories of the '30s. Watchmen, at its core, is a detective story, albeit one with masks and a nuclear-powered man. Sin City is a crime serial. Batman: The Long Halloween is as much of a detective tale as much as it is a yearlong romp through Batman's rogues' gallery.
In the context of CSW, it's true--players need to know and accept the premise from the start that a lucky gunshot can take out even an experience, powerful metahuman Hero. And, certainly, if a Hero gets caught unawares by a group of mooks, it's likely that they won't survive the utter mugging they receive. To me, that's why heroes team up in the first place--it's always going to be easier to take on the mob when you have someone to watch your back and help out with portions of an investigation that aren't necessarily your own strong suit.
In related news, I actually received an email today from Angus! CSW is currently on sale at several stores in the UK and Germany, with a US print set to hit distributors soon.
Quote from: APKlosky;830388While I disagree with Christopher's endpoint, I can understand and appreciate his viewpoint and see exactly where he's coming from.
A good deal of the street-level supers contain significant echoes to the noir/pulp detective stories of the '30s. Watchmen, at its core, is a detective story, albeit one with masks and a nuclear-powered man. Sin City is a crime serial. Batman: The Long Halloween is as much of a detective tale as much as it is a yearlong romp through Batman's rogues' gallery.
In the context of CSW, it's true--players need to know and accept the premise from the start that a lucky gunshot can take out even an experience, powerful metahuman Hero. And, certainly, if a Hero gets caught unawares by a group of mooks, it's likely that they won't survive the utter mugging they receive. To me, that's why heroes team up in the first place--it's always going to be easier to take on the mob when you have someone to watch your back and help out with portions of an investigation that aren't necessarily your own strong suit.
Is there anyway to dial mook lethality down?
APKlosky ran CSW for my wife and I at GenCon last year, and we had a great time. I'm planning on running it myself soon and will be reviewing it. :)
I for one do not mind a deadlier tone. Are beginning characters assumed to have been crimefighting for awhile, or mostly rookies and those new to vigilantism?
Quote from: APKlosky;830388While I disagree with Christopher's endpoint, I can understand and appreciate his viewpoint and see exactly where he's coming from.
A good deal of the street-level supers contain significant echoes to the noir/pulp detective stories of the '30s. Watchmen, at its core, is a detective story, albeit one with masks and a nuclear-powered man. Sin City is a crime serial. Batman: The Long Halloween is as much of a detective tale as much as it is a yearlong romp through Batman's rogues' gallery.
In the context of CSW, it's true--players need to know and accept the premise from the start that a lucky gunshot can take out even an experience, powerful metahuman Hero. And, certainly, if a Hero gets caught unawares by a group of mooks, it's likely that they won't survive the utter mugging they receive. To me, that's why heroes team up in the first place--it's always going to be easier to take on the mob when you have someone to watch your back and help out with portions of an investigation that aren't necessarily your own strong suit.
I actually find the noir tone appealing. It sets this game apart from other pulp/superhero games that I've looked into. But I'm not particularly knowledgeable on the genre, so I may not be as critical when it comes to "strict" genre emulation.
Quote from: APKlosky;830388In related news, I actually received an email today from Angus! CSW is currently on sale at several stores in the UK and Germany, with a US print set to hit distributors soon.
Congratulations on this good news!
Quote from: Dan Davenport;830530APKlosky ran CSW for my wife and I at GenCon last year, and we had a great time. I'm planning on running it myself soon and will be reviewing it. :)
I like what I've seen of it so far. Even though I'm generally into somewhat more rules-light stuff I plan to pick up a print copy. Pity there's no attractive print + pdf bundle deal anywhere except at Chronicle City, at least not that I have seen.
Let me just post my experience.
My crew was a four man team.
One healing factor super (sorta) tough guy, with unique rage issues called Overkill. (He stole drugs, because his healing regeneration hurt to the point of mindless rage. Hard drugs soothed him)
A husband and wife former prison guards team. She was a sonic manipulator, but her forcefield required her to hum, she was called Bahnshee, and her husband (a fellow Prison guard) was The Executioner (a punisher wannabe), no powers, but a lot of skill with firearms and combat (although no more than the system allowed.)
The last was a remake of The Hornet pre-made, instead of a Kung Fu swords woman, we made her into a Ninja (which according to Mr. Klosky, when we talked on the Blackfall Press facebook page, was meant as an infiltrator in the first place.)
They died first mission, against five Rojo Bastardes gangers with pistols. Bear in mind, the two men, and Bahnshee had assault weapons. Initiative simply said, 'No!' And that was the end of that game for us. Admittedly, we had average to low rolls on the 'Hero' side, but still. If average rolls can't hit a target in a Super Hero game, I'm out.
But the book itself is well done, and it has an interesting city for a background, and an excellent 'how to build investigation missions' section. I'm planning on converting to another system, at some point.
Out of curiousity, Christopher, did your players use the Vigilance Pool on any of those initiative rolls? That one resource could have changed the story pretty dramatically....
Quote from: APKlosky;830713Out of curiousity, Christopher, did your players use the Vigilance Pool on any of those initiative rolls? That one resource could have changed the story pretty dramatically....
Yes, but even together the dice didn't get beat the gangers. It was messy, and brutal, and frankly, for my crew unfun. They asked me if I could convert the characters to M&M or HERO (and we hate HERO.) Now, again, I want to reiterate I AM HAPPY WITH MY PURCHASE! I love New Corinth, and despite that I know how to run investigations, the section in the book gave me more ideas and ways to run them. The characters, the gangs and various NPCs, all useful!
It's just the system didn't work for my crew. I wish it did.
I'm strongly tempted to allow Vigilance Dice to reduce damage to make the game a bit more forgiving for the heroes.
I know we've discussed that, APKlosky, but I can't recall what your suggestion was...
No worries, Christopher--not every system works for every group. I'm glad you still like it.
And Dan, that's an awesome house rule. If you're going to use it, maybe make it an even split: 1 Vigilance Die removes 1 die of damage. I would state that you have to use Vigilance dice before rolling the damage dice.
Just in case it was missed earlier. I asked if there was anyway to adjust the lethality level of the system.
Sorry if I missed that, Nexus:
The above house rule would definitely go a long way towards making CSW less lethal. Alternatively, you may wish to just provide a higher Strain Threshold for PCs. I probably wouldn't do both, though!
Quote from: APKlosky;830388In related news, I actually received an email today from Angus! CSW is currently on sale at several stores in the UK and Germany, with a US print set to hit distributors soon.
For those interested, I have confirmation through email from both Leisure Games and Chronicle City that they have the book in stock and it comes with a free pdf.
As Chronicle City is the slightly cheaper option for me I'm going to order it from them. Let's see how long it takes for the book to arrive.
I'm not really familiar with this game, but from the descriptions here, it sounds like it's exactly the sort of 'superhero' play I'm least interested in.
Quote from: RPGPundit;831337I'm not really familiar with this game, but from the descriptions here, it sounds like it's exactly the sort of 'superhero' play I'm least interested in.
It's a dice pool system. IIRC you're not too fond of those either.
EDITED for misreading RPGPundit's post
Quote from: RPGPundit;831337I'm not really familiar with this game, but from the descriptions here, it sounds like it's exactly the sort of 'superhero' play I'm least interested in.
That's fair. Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have so many games out there.
Quote from: RPGPundit;831337I'm not really familiar with this game, but from the descriptions here, it sounds like it's exactly the sort of 'superhero' play I'm least interested in.
I would argue that given the way the game is set up, it's not very superheroic at all.
I mean, take the Punisher for example. His first outing was against SPIDERMAN. A being able to bench press multiple tonnes of weight, is agile enough to dodge people shooting at him, not that he needs to, he has an innate sixth sense for danger, and an ability to restrain targets with a wave of his hands, and Frank "The Punisher" Castle was willing to go after him, and feel confident about his chances of survival. And he had been told that Spiderman was a killer, meaning that Frank figured Spidey would not pull punches. And he was still confident. He was either too stupid to know better, or he was much more capable than the average schmoe.
I really wish this game allowed for that sort of play, because I tried to make it work that way. Now, my players don't want to touch this game anymore.
Quote from: 3rik;831391It's a dice pool system, though. IIRC you're not too fond of those.
Argh! Even worse.
Wasn't the Punisher not meant to be in any way heroic when he first showed up? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Quote from: RPGPundit;831972Argh! Even worse.
And point-buy on top of that, so no, it's probably not something you'd be interested in. ;)
Quote from: RPGPundit;831981Wasn't the Punisher not meant to be in any way heroic when he first showed up? Or am I thinking of someone else?
No, you're right. He was a villain. But there was something that the writers and readers liked about him that they expanded on him.
Quote from: RPGPundit;831981Wasn't the Punisher not meant to be in any way heroic when he first showed up? Or am I thinking of someone else?
IIRC, Punisher was originally a Spiderman villain (an example of the potential dark side to acting as a vigilante) and has shown up, on and off, as a villain in other comics but writers and some fans found him compelling and expanded on him and he's become more an anti-hero.
This is a solid synopsis of the Punisher's history: Comic Vine: The Punisher (http://www.comicvine.com/punisher/4005-1525/)
I've always found the adulation of that type of 'hero' to be rather stupid. You can always tell who the stupid people are that read Watchmen when they're cheering for Rorschach.
Quote from: 3rik;831332Quote from: APKlosky;830388In related news, I actually received an email today from Angus! CSW is currently on sale at several stores in the UK and Germany, with a US print set to hit distributors soon.
For those interested, I have confirmation through email from both Leisure Games and Chronicle City that they have the book in stock and it comes with a free pdf.
As Chronicle City is the slightly cheaper option for me I'm going to order it from them. Let's see how long it takes for the book to arrive.
Again, for those interested, the book arrived today, so Angus and Chronicle City appear to be getting things back on track!
Quote from: RPGPundit;832278I've always found the adulation of that type of 'hero' to be rather stupid. You can always tell who the stupid people are that read Watchmen when they're cheering for Rorschach.
Or Ozymandias.
Quote from: RPGPundit;832278I've always found the adulation of that type of 'hero' to be rather stupid. You can always tell who the stupid people are that read Watchmen when they're cheering for Rorschach.
And you the real sad part? We were supposed to cheer for The Comedian.
But I understand why people cheered for Rorchach. He didn't waffle, he stood in his convictions, and never backed down. That resonated with the 80's crowd.
Frankly, what the audience wants and the author wants often conflicts, I've noticed. But then I'm not a Watchmen fan.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;832332And you the real sad part? We were supposed to cheer for The Comedian.
But I understand why people cheered for Rorchach. He didn't waffle, he stood in his convictions, and never backed down. That resonated with the 80's crowd.
Frankly, what the audience wants and the author wants often conflicts, I've noticed. But then I'm not a Watchmen fan.
I've long suspected allot of the support Rorschach gets is due to the stance he takes in the end than anything else.
Quote from: Nexus;832339I've long suspected allot of the support Rorschach gets is due to the stance he takes in the end than anything else.
According to the fans I used to talk to, that was the consensus. And frankly, a lot of Iron Age fans are the same way, they like their characters that have a strong moral stance and will not waver from it. Batman is popular for that same reason among a subsection of comic fans.
And getting this back to Cold Steel Wardens, I had a small crew of 4 who wanted to play that sort of game. In fact, they wanted to play, according to their own words, more 'real' characters, not in terms of skills or powers, but rather in that these were people who had a moral stance that they wouldn't bend.
I think you can appreciate a character without thinking of them as a protagonist or even as a good person. Rorschach is easy to admire for his unwavering moral code, even as that code is reprehensible and narrow-minded. Ozymandias is easy to admire for his genius and his desire to help mankind, but I don't think anyone thinks for a moment that exterminating most of New York is a viable, realistic choice.
To me, what made Watchmen stand apart--and this is something that's been done countless times since then, and even multiple times prior to its publication, even though Watchmen made it famous--is the idea of transposing comic book characters into a semi-realistic world and seeing what would happen. It's not a coincidence that so many of the Watchmen masked-heroes are diagnosed with mental illnesses and/or viewed as psycho-sexual deviants. Rorschach's viewpoint is that of Batman or The Punisher taken to its extreme and dropped into a destitute slum in New York.
What I appreciate most about Watchmen, in truth, is its construction and story-telling. There are so many nuances and unique tweaks made to the typical comics-storytelling model that I still find new things each time I crack the book. There are so few books that do that; to find one in comics is really something else.
Quote from: APKlosky;832358Ozymandias is easy to admire for his genius and his desire to help mankind, but I don't think anyone thinks for a moment that exterminating most of New York is a viable, realistic choice.
You'd be surprised.