TheRPGSite

This will be a wall of quoted text. I skimmed through the new pdf but got stuck on some things. First this:

"LGBTQI INVESTIGATORS
For many queer folk living in the city, Berlin is far more than
a destination for sex tourism. Between the end of the Great
War and the rise of Nazism, Berlin becomes Europe's--
and the world's--most welcoming capital for lesbian, gay,
bisexual, transgender, questioning, intersex, and other queer
people, supplanting Paris' long-held status as a destination
for queer culture.
A Berlin police commissioner estimates the city's gay
male population at 100,000 in 1922; by 1930, the estimate
is revised up to 350,000. That same year, Dr. Hirschfeld
puts the city's lesbian population at 400,000, though it
should be noted his definition of "lesbian" would encompass
many women who might today identify as bisexual. All in
a city whose total population is roughly 4 million. And, as
noted elsewhere, Hirschfeld is one of the first academics
to seriously examine transgender identities and coined the
(now outdated) term "transvestite." Berlin in the 1920s
boasts around a dozen bars specifically catering to the crossdressing
community, the most famous being the Eldorado.
This is all to say, having an LGBTQI investigator in
the group is not only possible but probable. Certainly,
such investigators will encounter much less resistance
and discrimination in Berlin than they will in any other
city of the period. However, despite the city's large queer
population, there remain legal instruments of repression,
which are used from time to time when it suits those in
power to do so. Paragraph 175 of the Prussian Penal Code
forbids male-male sex acts, while Paragraph 168 forbids
"cross-dressing" in public. Police occasionally raid drag clubs
and cross-dressing bars, and arrest patrons for cross-dressing
on a public thoroughfare. Paragraph 175 is condemned by
Hirschfeld and his allies as nothing more than an instrument
for blackmail, as indeed it often is. One of the slang terms for
gay men, particularly activists attempting to legalize gay sex,
is "One-Seven-Fivers."
Notably, lesbianism is completely ignored by the law. This
blind spot around female sexuality, heterosexual and queer
alike, is common in most cultures where female sexuality is
minimized or blatantly ignored due to sexist values, and is
well-exploited by Berlin's large lesbian population.
While many people in Berlin welcome and enjoy its
progressive stance of inclusion, there are those with extreme
beliefs at both ends of the spectrum. For example, the
"Militant Homosexuals.," led by magazine editor Adolf
Brand, extols males homosexuality as the apex of the
social order; the "ideal man" to Brand's followers is young,
muscular, Aryan, and "manly" gay. Next in Brand's "order"
come heterosexual men, again ranked by appearance and
race, with blond-haired, blue-eyed Nordic types at the top.
Following these categories of straight men are women of all
types, who are barely tolerated for their ability to propagate
the species. At the very bottom are "effeminate" gay men and
cross-dressers, whom the Militant Homosexualists blame
for giving the gay community a bad name and marking
out gay men for mockery. The rejection of the feminine
and the effeminate is, in this case, a mirror of larger trends
within extreme right-wing Nationalist groups that prize
"masculinity" and "maleness" above all else. Notably, the
Sturmabteilung--Hitler's "Brown Shirts"--counts the
openly gay Ernst Röhm and Edmund Heines among its
leadership and is said to have a large percentage of gay men
among its ranks.
At the other end of the spectrum are the "Third-Sexers,"
who are championed by Hirschfeld and his disciples. This
philosophy sees "men with female souls" and "women with
male sexual dispositions" as another naturally occurring facet
of evolution. They coin the term "Third Sex" to describe
those who are "neither full man nor full woman." Despite
the misguided language of the movement, the Third-Sexers
advocate for full protection under the law of all consensual
sexual activity--an extremely radical position for the times."

"LGBTQI INVESTIGATORS
(CONTINUED)
The Militant Homosexualists and Third-Sexers approximately
align with the political philosophies of, respectively,
Nationalism and Socialism. As is the case with regular
politics, of course, the large majority of Berlin's lesbian and
gay community occupy a vast middle ground, called the
Libertarians. To this group, sexual orientation and identity
is not a matter for political organizing or lofty theorizing--
they simply want to meet like-minded people and do so
through social ties rather than at clubs or rallies. Despite
the city's massive queer population, there is in fact very little
intermingling on either a social or political basis. Rather,
different cliques tend to maintain their own social circles.
There is one exception to this: straight or gay, Homosexualist,
or otherwise, the one segment of Berlin's queer population
consistently placed on the bottom rung are cross-dressers (who
may or may not identify as transgender people). Some visitors
to the Eldorado come simply to gawp at the drag queens on
display--a highly visible yet non-threatening manifestation of
the tumultuous Berlin nightlife. Such derision is more than a
little ironic considering the fact that the beautiful androgyne--
the drag queen, the cabaret chanteuse in tux and top hat--all
are shorthand visual symbols for Berlin (even in their own
era) and continue to be so in modern times. This rejection and
repression, sometimes even from within the queer community,
causes the transgender and cross-dressing communities to
come together as a small but hardcore group dedicated to
resisting legal and social prejudice from all sides."


And then there was alot of stuff concerning prostitution:

"PROSTITUTION
Berlin has no official "red light district;" prostitutes, male
and female, number in the tens of thousands (perhaps even
exceeding 100,000). These two factors combine to ensure
that the city is nearly overrun with sex workers, no matter
where you go. They may be found on every major street
corner, in clubs, at cafés, and in hotel lobbies.
Because Prussian law prohibits verbal solicitation,
Berlin prostitutes resort to other means (dress, gestures,
key phrases) when advertising their services. And with so
many working professionals in the city, these services can
be quite specialized indeed. Here follows a short selection
of the many categories of working girls and guys in Berlin.
Numbers in parentheses give a rough idea of commonality.

Age of Consent: in Germany, the age of consent is 14,
although the involvement of a full adult (over 21 years)
with a person under 16 years of age carries the assumption
of exploitation and the adult may face prosecution. In
comparison, the age of consent in the UK and most of
Australia is 16 years old, while in the U.S. it varies between
16 and 18 (dependent on the state).

Boot-Girl: dressed in fur coats and thigh-high patent leather
boots, these are street-walking Dominas (following). The
color of their boots indicates specialty: black for cropping,
lacquered gold for physical torture, poisonous green for
psychological torture, and so on. Other colors include brown,
cobalt blue, brick red, and scarlet. (350)

Chonte: a Jewish prostitute, often Polish-born, working out
of Chonte-Harbors (brothels). (Numbers unknown)

Demi-Castor: a high-class version of the Half-Silk
(following), this is a woman from a wealthy family who
allegedly uses prostitution as a form of thrill-seeking and
to supplement her allowance. Tend to work out of exclusive,
secretive brothels. (500)

Doll-Boys: penniless teenage and pre-pubescent hustlers
(ages range from 9–14), these "street rats" often trade their
sexual favors for food, cigarettes, and a warm place to sleep.
The Linden Passage in Friedrichstadt is their preferred
congregating place. (2,000–3,000)

Domina: powerfully built woman clad in leather, specializing
in whipping and humiliation. Often working out of lesbian
clubs that allow male clientele and heterosexual couples, or
else in "Body Culture" clubs. (1,500)

Fohse: independent sex worker who advertises in the papers
as manicurists or massage therapists, as advertising for sexual
services is banned. (2,500)

Grasshopper: a streetwalker too poor to afford a room who
conducts business in secluded outdoor areas. Also called Fresh-Air Girls. (600)

Gravels: a woman with missing limbs, a hunchback, or other
serious physical abnormalities. Popular with veterans who
lost limbs of their own in the Great War. (600)

Half-Silk: an office girl, secretary, shopkeeper, or similar
"working girl" who uses prostitution to supplement her
income. Also called Five-O-Clock Girls. (40,000–55,000)

Kontroll-Girl: a licensed prostitute; grouped into one of
three classes and subject to periodic checks for venereal
disease by police physicians. Such workers signal their status
by opening conversations with, "So, sweetheart?" Also called
Bone-Shakers, Line-Girls, and Joy-Girls. (Authorities issue
8,750 Control Books in 1930)

Line-Boys: far and away Berlin's most prolific male
prostitutes. Known to travel in small packs, they cruise for
clients in hotel lobbies, at bars around the Alex, and in the
leafy promenades of the Tiergarten. Ages range from 15–19.
(20,000–25,000)"

"PROSTITUTION (CONTINUED)
Medicine: a child prostitute of age 12–16. Their pimps pose
as physicians operating "pharmacies" around Potsdamer
Platz, and clients indicate their preference by bringing in a
"prescription" indicating "length of illness" (desired age) and
"color of pill" (desired hair color). (No more than 100)

Münzi: a pregnant woman who waits under streetlights
on the Müntzstraße in the Alex. Their sessions are quite
expensive, as they cater to an upper-class clientele. (Never
more than a couple of dozen)

Nutte: a boyish, coquettishly dressed teenage girl, working
out of her family's house and disguises her prostitution
as dating. Often go on double dates with another Nutte.
(25,000–30,000)

Race Horse: a masochistic prostitute who works out of an
"Institute for Foreign Language Instruction"--in actuality, a
brothel with "classrooms" outfitted with torture and bondage
furniture. Due to the risk to the worker, clients are rigorously
screened prior to their first visit. (200)

T-Girl: the "T" is short for Tauentzienstraße, the street
where these brash, frank, fashionable streetwalkers most
often ply their trade (sometimes in mother-daughter pairs).
The press corps, regardless of political stripe, has a close
working relationship with the T-Girls, as do many Bulls of
the Criminal Police. (2,500)

Table-Lady: at Berlin's fanciest nightclubs, clients may pay
"table-money" for an evening of stimulating conversation,
scandalous gossip, delicious hors d'oeuvres, and fine
champagne in the company of a lady in the employ of the
club. The evening ends with an erotic backroom encounter.
Table-Ladies are hired and groomed to conform to one
of several ethnic stereotypes: Demonic German, Exotic
Eurasian, Gypsy-Girl, Nordic, or Spanish Aristocrat.
Their numbers decline precipitously after the 1929 global
economic crisis. (500 prior to the Crash)

Telephone-Girl: child prostitute, aged 12–17. Ordered by
telephone and conveyed to the client by limousine, they
go by the names of movie stars (Lya de Putti, Dolly Haas,
Marlene Dietrich, Lilian Harvey), whom they are made up
to resemble. Their rates are astronomical, in part because
they play the part of virgins. (3,000)

Wild-Boys: inhabiting the peripheries of the city, the Wild-
Boys are gangs of homeless male youth (ages 12–18) leading
a Peter-Pan-like existence. Will trade sexual favors for food
and lodging. (2,000–2,500)."


Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones). What's the purpose of this? That a PC can order himself a Telephone-Girl after a hard day's investigation or cruise suburban Berlin in his Mercedes-Benz Modell K looking for Wild-Boys? Strangely enough I had to google a German car model from the 1920s because stuff like that isn't found in the pdf.

Amidst all the LGBTQIWANTOUT and the whoremongering something like this is also puzzling:

"Table-Ladies are hired and groomed to conform to one
of several ethnic stereotypes: Demonic German, Exotic
Eurasian, Gypsy-Girl, Nordic, or Spanish Aristocrat.
Their numbers decline precipitously after the 1929 global
economic crisis. (500 prior to the Crash)"
 
Was "Demonic German" really an ethnic stereotype in 1920s Berlin? Demonic? I know it seems to be the case now among some, but back then?

I wonder what Lovecraft would think of this supplement? Maybe I'm getting old, but I call this quoted info needless and in bad taste. Where is my list of German made cars from the 1920s? Of 1920s German weapons? What kind of clothes did they wear in Berlin in the 1920s? I find that interesting, but apparently they don't.

It all makes me wonder why they made this book? Is it to flaunt with the sexual, perverse stuff? Prostitution existed in all major towns, but when it comes to Berlin they really dig into it, don't they?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones).

I wonder what Lovecraft would think of this supplement? Maybe I'm getting old, but I call this quoted info needless and in bad taste. Where is my list of German made cars from the 1920s? Of 1920s German weapons? What kind of clothes did they wear in Berlin in the 1920s? I find that interesting, but apparently they don't.

It all makes me wonder why they made this book? Is it to flaunt with the sexual, perverse stuff? Prostitution existed in all major towns, but when it comes to Berlin they really dig into it, don't they?

I'd call decadence of any type a quintessentially Lovecraftian theme, and details about the excesses of the sexual subculture of Berlin at the time can certainly play into creating that atmosphere. (This is also the stuff that it's a little trickier to find with public research; it may be that details of cars, weapons and clothing weren't included with the same detail because there's no difficulty or embarrassment factor in Googling that stuff, if a particular group of players cares about it.)

It's also worth noting that sexual decadence in particular neatly ties into the tremendous class conflict that is also part of the Lovecraftian zeitgeist, because it relates to all classes in a negative but different way. For the rich, it's something they can flaunt as a sign of power by getting away with it, and a promise of excitement for the jaded and bored (with a diminishing-returns curve steeper than anyone wants to admit). For the poor, it's a way out of one type of hell by delivering oneself into another kind, or a ruinous addiction that forever keeps certain slums from ever achieving proper culture and civilization. For the middle class, it's a costly vice potentially destructive not only in itself but for the devastating effects it will have on your name and public position if revealed.

Secrets, abuse, addiction, desperation, decay and parasitism are also very much in the Lovecraftian mold. "Pickman's Model" and "Medusa's Coil" are both stories about the horrific hidden costs of aesthetic or sexual obsessions.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1096950I'd call decadence of any type a quintessentially Lovecraftian theme, and details about the excesses of the sexual subculture of Berlin at the time can certainly play into creating that atmosphere. (This is also the stuff that it's a little trickier to find with public research; it may be that details of cars, weapons and clothing weren't included with the same detail because there's no difficulty or embarrassment factor in Googling that stuff, if a particular group of players cares about it.)

It's also worth noting that sexual decadence in particular neatly ties into the tremendous class conflict that is also part of the Lovecraftian zeitgeist, because it relates to all classes in a negative but different way. For the rich, it's something they can flaunt as a sign of power by getting away with it, and a promise of excitement for the jaded and bored (with a diminishing-returns curve steeper than anyone wants to admit). For the poor, it's a way out of one type of hell by delivering oneself into another kind, or a ruinous addiction that forever keeps certain slums from ever achieving proper culture and civilization. For the middle class, it's a costly vice potentially destructive not only in itself but for the devastating effects it will have on your name and public position if revealed.

Secrets, abuse, addiction, desperation, decay and parasitism are also very much in the Lovecraftian mold. "Pickman's Model" and "Medusa's Coil" are both stories about the horrific hidden costs of aesthetic or sexual obsessions.

But seriously, in what stories by Lovecraft do you find anything remotely close to the sexual decadence presented in Berlin - The Wicked City? Lovecraft wasn't that keen on discussing sex even in his private life:

"Lovecraft however was himself loathe to discuss with anyone any aspect of sex and especially his own sex life. Sonia recalled that "when the boys and HPL used to meet in his (Sam Loveman's) studio room on Clinton Street, when I was not there-whether they did it on purpose or to tease him, they would open a conversation re sex, knowing that HPL did not like to listen to such stories, Sam Loveman asked HPL whether he didn't feel ashamed or disgusted to think that his parents had to cohabit in order to have his mother conceive a child. HP made no reply but HP must have been much embarrassed. . . . Although HP was not a fighting man, and because Sam was his guest, he did not punch him. . . . Yet HPL took pride in telling me that he was born on the mattress on which we both slept. This, I believe, he told no one but me." (http://www.hplovecraft.com/study/articles/hpl-sex.aspx)

Now, I'm far from a prude, but everything has its place. It seems other supplements, the core rules, starter set, etc, is aimed at a younger audience. Back in the day (in Sweden) you could always find a little blurb on the back of a rpg box, something like "intended for ages 11 years and up" or something in that vein. The CoC product line seems to lack this. With the one exception being Berlin - The Wicked City that states "This book deals with mature themes, including drugs and sex, and is intended for mature players."

Sure it's mature alright, with passages about preteen prostitutes and "Such derision is more than a
little ironic considering the fact that the beautiful androgyne-the drag queen, the cabaret chanteuse in tux and top hat-all are shorthand visual symbols for Berlin (even in their own era) and continue to be so in modern times.". Who writes this manure? Most readers/Keepers/players are heterosexual, aren't they? Or has the world changed when I dozed off this afternoon?

When it came to the Starter Pack Chaosium posted a few videos on Youtube where they managed to mention what an awful person Lovecraft was in a two minute segment meant to promote the product. The video started with a Lovecraft quote. So they quoted him, then shat all over him in a couple of minutes while promoting a game that wouldn't exist without the racist in question. Naturally, the comment section was disabled after some critique. And I have seen other CoC products where they mention racism in the game, how to deal with it in the 1920s setting, etc. But I haven't seen any cautiously warning examples on how to deal with the degenerate setting with pregnant prostitutes and Doll boys in Berlin. It almost has some sort of condoning tone. First it starts with the LGBTQI stuff and that it would be probable that an Investigator would belong to that group then it's off to prostitution and other forms. Fuck, maybe I am a prude after all. There's just something in how it's presented, the tone of it all, that makes me wonder. I have never seen something similar in a CoC supplement before.

Prude.

If this is an attempt by Chaosium to present an LGBTQ+ friendly setting, it's an own goal.

First, this is the infamous Weimar Republic in all its self-destructive decadence. Many in the Anti-SJW crowd hold up that era and society as the example of what the SJWs are recreating.

Second, as already noted in this thread, all of that decadence is the source of the horror in the setting, not the correction or solution to it. Express/indulge in the decadence and watch your SAN drop like a rock.

QuoteLovecraft wasn't that keen on discussing sex even in his private life....

In person, no, but sexuality certainly informed his imagination about what was horrifying and why, at least in part because the eugenics theories of his day made a great deal of noise (taken, at the time, with the horrified seriousness of many environmental activists today) about the cultural and civilizational consequences of widespread miscegenation. You can't read about the evil seductress Marceline in "Medusa's Coil" without knowing exactly how dangerous unfettered sexuality can be. (Though it should also be conceded that "Medusa's Coil" was co-written with Zealia Bishop, so Lovecraft may not have been the primary contributor on those elements.)

Was this ever presented in explicit detail? No, partly because Lovecraft was himself a prude, but also because he was writing in an era where there were limits on how that could be expressed and because he was writing in a style and mode which valued implication over explicit depiction. Our own age is much less limited and, as a direct result, much more jaded -- but we're also chronic victims of chronological snobbery, such that the shock of reading about Weimar-era Berlin isn't the strangeness of what they did but the familiarity of it, the fact that another age not only already beat us to the worst excesses of human nature but was even more unrepentant and unashamed of it.

I think the detail of Berlin's sexual subculture is less about what the players are expected to get seriously involved with "personally" through their PCs and much more simply about creating the atmosphere of the setting: a city where the frenzied energy is not one of hope and optimism but dread and disorientation, where you can be struck by the idea that over fifty thousand young women are turning tricks part-time to supplement their income. And even then, it's only one part, and it's there because at least one player in most groups is likely to at least ask. Bear in mind that the Wicked City book is 350+ pages long; even the wall of text above is a minuscule portion of that.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946I wonder what Lovecraft would think of this supplement?

Nothing, he's been dead for 82 years.

While HPL might not have approved, Robert Howard probably would have liked it. He apparently had a big porn collection and wrote stuff bordering on it for the spicy pulps. So did E. Hoffman Price.

And let's remember, at the time, Weird Tales routinely featured a nude woman on the cover, usually being tortured sexually (or menaced). While pornography depicting sex wasn't openly available, a number of magazines of that era actually carried nude photos in them and had racy stories and ribald jokes. It was a pretty wild time, arguably wilder than modern day in many aspects.

Have you seen Cabaret?  (1972) - winner of 8 Academy Awards. This picture of Berlin isn't new!

Also, check out the excellent Eternal Lies campaign if you want an exploration of corruption by the forces of the Mythos. Again - nothing new.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097006Have you seen Cabaret?  (1972) - winner of 8 Academy Awards. This picture of Berlin isn't new!

Also, check out the excellent Eternal Lies campaign if you want an exploration of corruption by the forces of the Mythos. Again - nothing new.

No, I'm a prude and I don't watch anything with crossdressers in it, regardless of imdb rating or Academy Awards. I love horror, but not that kind of horror. I did watch Robin Williams in the Birdcage though, because I like Robin Williams. But Gravels and Line-Boys were absent from that film.

I am fully aware of how Berlin was in the 1920s. But what am I as a Keeper to do with the info of a dozen codenames for different kinds of prostitutes? I want to play a cosmic horror game, not make it a fuckfest session. I might as well find a copy of F.A.T.A.L. and have it as a GM aid when we create Crossdressing German Investigators, for the Anal Circumference table. O la la. Ich bin ein Berliner.

I know who is behind it all. It's that Lynne Hardy. I just know it. Perhaps Mike Mason too, he wear odd clothes:

https://youtu.be/KpoDdihq5Mc

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097017I love horror, but not that kind of horror.

So that's exactly the horror you should face for it to be horror. It's not horror if you like it.

Quotehe wear odd clothes:

I think you've really jumped the shark there, old bean. We're not quite ready for the shirt police.

I'm going to be curious to see how many people who've condemned the Random Prostitute Table in the 1E DMG are going to gush over this, or vice versa ...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1097022I'm going to be curious to see how many people who've condemned the Random Prostitute Table in the 1E DMG are going to gush over this, or vice versa ...

Slovenly Trull...Cheap Trollop...mmm. Yeah, they missed out not having such a table in the Berlin supplement. Btw, there was a German CoC supplement for Berlin if my memory serves me right. I wonder if that was as raunchy as Chaosiums?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946...

Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones). What's the purpose of this? That a PC can order himself a Telephone-Girl after a hard day's investigation or cruise suburban Berlin in his Mercedes-Benz Modell K looking for Wild-Boys? Strangely enough I had to google a German car model from the 1920s because stuff like that isn't found in the pdf.

Interesting choice of focus...

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946...
"Table-Ladies are hired and groomed...
...It all makes me wonder why they made this book? Is it to flaunt with the sexual, perverse stuff? Prostitution existed in all major towns, but when it comes to Berlin they really dig into it, don't they?

It seems you have answered your own question.

I remember a book for Twilight 2000 called 'Bangkok Cesspool of the Orient'... but I've got no idea if it included details on sex shows and prostitution (which is what Bangkok was infamous for when that book was published) or whatever the 'Cesspool' moniker referred to.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1097022I'm going to be curious to see how many people who've condemned the Random Prostitute Table in the 1E DMG are going to gush over this, or vice versa ...

We allready dissected that a year or two ago as mostly another falsehood.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097020So that's exactly the horror you should face for it to be horror. It's not horror if you like it.

You're correct. That's why all my future CoC sessions will feature a crowded sailing boat where a party of gay men wearing garter belts are toying with nasty spiders while the boat springs a leak in False Bay near Seal Island where great whites breach all the time. Not sure my players will appreciate the scenarios though.

Notice the section on age of consent.

I'll leave it at that.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097017No, I'm a prude and I don't watch anything with crossdressers in it, regardless of imdb rating or Academy Awards. I love horror, but not that kind of horror. I did watch Robin Williams in the Birdcage though, because I like Robin Williams. But Gravels and Line-Boys were absent from that film.

I am fully aware of how Berlin was in the 1920s. But what am I as a Keeper to do with the info of a dozen codenames for different kinds of prostitutes? I want to play a cosmic horror game, not make it a fuckfest session. I might as well find a copy of F.A.T.A.L. and have it as a GM aid when we create Crossdressing German Investigators, for the Anal Circumference table. O la la. Ich bin ein Berliner.

I know who is behind it all. It's that Lynne Hardy. I just know it. Perhaps Mike Mason too, he wear odd clothes:

https://youtu.be/KpoDdihq5Mc

That wasn't Lynn or Mike. That clip was from David Larkins and myself. And for what it is worth, I live in Berlin.

We thought it was amazing that there really was all that detailed information from the Prussian police. That material is included to give the Keeper and the Investigators a feel for the decadence of Weimar Berlin. it isn't included for any purpose other than to help give you a feeling what Berlin was like after WW1. If you look at the art of the time, its sexuality is raw. There's a wonderful, inexpensive Taschenbook called "Berlin in den 1920er-Jahren" which gives a very vivid impression of the look and feel of the city at that time. Or just check out the art of Otto Dix or any of the other Golden Age Berlin artists:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3624[/ATTACH]

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096971]"Such derision is more than a little ironic considering the fact that the beautiful androgyne-the drag queen, the cabaret chanteuse in tux and top hat-all are shorthand visual symbols for Berlin (even in their own era) and continue to be so in modern times."[/I]. Who writes this manure? Most readers/Keepers/players are heterosexual, aren't they? Or has the world changed when I dozed off this afternoon?

Anita Berber is such a commonly used symbol of Berlin in the 1920s, that she appears as a character in my kids' books from elementary school.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3626[/ATTACH]

EDIT: As the OP has already said they are prudish, I posted one of the tamer pictures of Anita Berber I could find.

Another common symbol for the culture of Berlin in the 1920s, is Marlene Dietrich from Der blaue Engel:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3627[/ATTACH]

And if you want one messed up film with cross-dressing, decadence, and all that jazz, Der blaue Engel is your huckleberry.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1097061Notice the section on age of consent.

I'll leave it at that.

Yes? It's a report of the historical facts (as far as I know) in a setting book. Is your assumption - or standard practice  - to assume that any reporting of historical cultural facts is to approve of them? Get real; we know you're much smarter than that.

It seems to me that if they'd written "The distressing historical details of the age of consent are ...." then they'd be up against it for being preachy SJWs.

What would have done if you had their writing gig?

I had zero interest in CoC before this, but now they've gone and made me 100x more interested.

You should totally check out 'Babylon Berlin' on Netflix. All that tawdry sex stuff of Weimar Berlin is ditched in favour of a good ol' fashioned police procedural.

Quote from: richaje;1097066That wasn't Lynn or Mike. That clip was from David Larkins and myself. And for what it is worth, I live in Berlin.

We thought it was amazing that there really was all that detailed information from the Prussian police. That material is included to give the Keeper and the Investigators a feel for the decadence of Weimar Berlin. it isn't included for any purpose other than to help give you a feeling what Berlin was like after WW1. If you look at the art of the time, its sexuality is raw. There's a wonderful, inexpensive Taschenbook called "Berlin in den 1920er-Jahren" which gives a very vivid impression of the look and feel of the city at that time. Or just check out the art of Otto Dix or any of the other Golden Age Berlin artists:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3624[/ATTACH]

I take it the WW1 cripple in the artwork is out looking for gravels then? By the way, since you are Berlin-based and work for Chaosium there was a German Cthulhu Berlin supplement. Did it take a nose dive among the hairy muffs of Berlin prostitutes too? And if the list is just to paint a picture of the decadence for the Keeper, why the mention of the age of consent before the catering list of available unfortunates?

I googled Anita Berber and I found this picture of "the beautiful androgyne":

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3628[/ATTACH]

Anita Berber looks like the local butcher in drag. Any guy in 80's hair metal looked more of an androgyne than that. I raise you with this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3629[/ATTACH]

Quote from: HappyDaze;1097080I had zero interest in CoC before this, but now they've gone and made me 100x more interested.

Was it the list of prostitutes?

Jeff Richard, will you and Larkins be involved in Cthulhu by Gaslight for the 7th edition as well? I hope that supplement will come with a fine list of the ages of consent. Something similar to this below. Notice 7 years in Delaware:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24 (http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24)

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097099Jeff Richard, will you and Larkins be involved in Cthulhu by Gaslight for the 7th edition as well? I hope that supplement will come with a fine list of the ages of consent. Something similar to this below. Notice 7 years in Delaware:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24 (http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24)

Probably not, because the Gaslight genre is not usually depicted as decadent as Weimar Berlin. Unless of course we end up taking a detour down the paths of Jack the Ripper and Dorian Grey. Moore's "Straight to Hell" definitely had a lot of information about Victorian prostitution.

Safe to say the book isn't your cup of Schnapps, it seems. Glad to see other folks on the thread picking up what it's putting down.

I'm busy packing for a 10-day trip, but a few notes:

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097017I know who is behind it all. It's that Lynne Hardy.

Lynne's sole contribution to the quoted material at the top of this thread was helping me sort out the correct spelling of "fohse," which I managed to misspell both times it appears in the text in two completely different ways!

Thanks for the laugh, though--I totally read that comment in the voice of Aunt Bee from The Andy Griffith Show.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096971But seriously, in what stories by Lovecraft do you find anything remotely close to the sexual decadence presented in Berlin - The Wicked City?

Nowhere to my knowledge. You are aware that CoC encompasses the entirety of the Cthulhu Mythos and not just Lovecraft's Yog-Sothothery, yes? I would think Lovecraft was probably disgusted by the actual Weimar Berlin at the time, but to paraphrase Dr. Frank-N-Furter, I didn't make it for him!

Oh, speaking of mature content warnings, there's also a paragraph right at the front of the book, under the Table of Contents:

QuoteThe "Wickedest City on Earth" did not earn its reputation lightly. Although we have endeavored to engage with this place and time in a non-exploitative manner, it remains to be said that much of the material in this book deals with mature themes--primarily, drugs, racism, and sex. The latter, in particular, in terms of sex magic, prostitution, sexual murder, and all manner of sexual practices is, at least, touched on, if not outright highlighted. Keepers are advised to adjust their presentation of this subject matter in accordance with their own and their group's comfort levels.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones). What's the purpose of this? That a PC can order himself a Telephone-Girl after a hard day's investigation or cruise suburban Berlin in his Mercedes-Benz Modell K looking for Wild-Boys? Strangely enough I had to google a German car model from the 1920s because stuff like that isn't found in the pdf.

I'd love to see someone produce a little supplemental for the Miskatonic Repository covering firearms and vehicles in Weimar Germany. Make a little scratch on the side while you're at it! As mentioned upthread, BtWC is a BIG book which already overran its word count by the time I turned it in. Can't include everything. As others have mentioned, the choice was to focus on the stuff that is harder to source independently, not to mention what made Berlin Berlin at the time.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1097081You should totally check out 'Babylon Berlin' on Netflix. All that tawdry sex stuff of Weimar Berlin is ditched in favour of a good ol' fashioned police procedural.

Hey, isn't that the show where the first episode involves a police raid on a porno shoot depicting Jesus Christ having sex with Mary Magdalene? The one where one of the main characters works part-time in clerical positions and makes money on the side as a prostitute? ;)

Quote from: RandyB;1096975If this is an attempt by Chaosium to present an LGBTQ+ friendly setting, it's an own goal.

The two quoted bits of text in OP's post are both pulled from a larger section on sex and sexuality in Berlin. Those famous photos of Nazi book burnings? They're torching the library of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, one of the first institutions for sexuality studies in the world. The proliferation of prostitution, including underage prostitution, was notorious in its own time. Berlin was a well-known destination for sexuality scholars and sex tourism. To ignore these issues would have been, frankly, baffling.

As for committing an "own goal," I'm honestly not sure what part of having a setting where players can put together a group of queer investigators to fight the Mythos, Nazis, and Communists is undermining any kind of progressive agenda, but YMMV.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097095Any guy in 80's hair metal looked more of an androgyne than that.

Kind of appropriate you post the Vince Neil pic. Berber was a rock star decades ahead of her time and would've fit right in on The Decline of Western Civlization: The Metal Years (or Part I for that matter...).

Anyway, she's definitely a divisive figure. We found during play-testing that players either absolutely loved her or were completely repulsed by her. In that way she embodies 1920s Berlin.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1097080I had zero interest in CoC before this, but now they've gone and made me 100x more interested.

The Streisand Effect is real, people! :D

Quote from: richaje;1097101Probably not, because the Gaslight genre is not usually depicted as decadent as Weimar Berlin. Unless of course we end up taking a detour down the paths of Jack the Ripper and Dorian Grey.

Or Penny Dreadful, or Oscar Wilde, or Dracula, or Carmilla, or Andre Gide, or the Decadent movement in general...

"According to the Lancet Medical Journal of 1887, it was estimated that there were around 80,000 prostitutes in London which is 3% of the total population of 2,360,000." I think those number would rival Berlins in any decade. And yes, they had BDSM-brothels and other decadent stuff back then too, regardless of Saucy Jack running around in 1888:

http://victorian-era.org/victorian-ladies-night-prostitution.html (http://victorian-era.org/victorian-ladies-night-prostitution.html)

Oh, and by the way. Do you guys from Chaosium have any inside info on other LGBTQI+ CoC supplements in the pipeline? So I can save my money, I mean? I do like horror, I just don't like the combo of the Mythos and men wearing lipstick.

But hey, I've got an idea of a brand new line of Cthulhu supplements for you. Call of Cthulhu in the sleazy, funky '70s. Pornshops, whores, pimp canes, Shaft vs Cthulhu? Investigators could dress like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3632[/ATTACH]

Or whatabout this?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3633[/ATTACH]

Hey?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3634[/ATTACH]

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097097Was it the list of prostitutes?

Did you do the math?

Honestly it reads like something "edgy" White Wolf would splash across the pages rather than something I'd expect from Chaosium or Call of Cthulhu. Even the title is more WW than CoC.

On the other hand it does mesh nicely with more lurid works by authors like Ransey Campbell and his Severn Valley/Goatswood Mythos works.

And here I was hoping for a discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of the supplement on its own, because I've been eyeing picking it up.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1097194And here I was hoping for a discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of the supplement on its own, because I've been eyeing picking it up.

Very YMMV. To me it lacks some crucial data and seems to overfocus on the seedier side. But that seems to be the point. And if I recall right some of the lacking info is in other books. As noted above. It meshes well with more lurid fare and by extension should work with a group that can handle such a place.

At least two players I game with online would find the book potentially interesting. So I'll be recommending it to them. Others I would not as the subject matter would repulse them to some degree.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097006Have you seen Cabaret?  (1972) - winner of 8 Academy Awards.

I thought about mentioning cabaret. It seems a pretty obvious model source for the feel of the period. The Blue Angel is good too, but less well known here in America.

Quote from: sirlarkins;1097112Thanks for the laugh, though--I totally read that comment in the voice of Aunt Bee from The Andy Griffith Show.

That made me chuckle.

QuoteI'd love to see someone produce a little supplemental for the Miskatonic Repository covering firearms and vehicles in Weimar

That's been done. Over a decade ago the Unspeakable Oath did a series of articles on firearms with multipage firearm tables with dates and countries of production (as well as a lot of other details). I wouldn't mind another list of European cars and trucks though.

I can't really imagine the material the OP quotes actually being useful or used in-game. In that light I would have to wonder why it's in the book. With the most likely explanation being the authors are indulging their own interest in queer/transgressive subcultures. That's their prerogative but it's not why I pick up C&C books.

I find the stuff on ages of consent distasteful in the extreme. I don't want to be anywhere near a game that gets into this kind of territory. The ick factor would be an immersion and enjoyment killer for me.

To return to the comparison the OP makes, I can imagine players wanting to know what cars are available for the PCs to 'borrow' (especially in a game with well-articulated chase rules) (and it's on the cover of the book). I can't see much demand for a detailed gaming-out of a whoring expedition.

P.S. if you read the story Nyarlathotep, I think you'll have a good idea what Lovecraft would have thought of it.

I think 1920s/1930s Europe will be a great backdrop to set Mythos adventures in.

Places like Berlin, Paris, Prague, Rome, etc are a great canvas for a backdrop once you decide you want games further afield than Lovecraft County

This might make quite an interesting setting

I think 1920s/1930s Europe would be a good backdrop to set Mythos adventures in.
Places like Berlin, Paris, Prague, Rome, etc are a great canvas once you decide you want games further afield than Lovecraft County

This might make quite an interesting setting

Quote from: Marchand;1097214I can't really imagine the material the OP quotes actually being useful or used in-game. In that light I would have to wonder why it's in the book. With the most likely explanation being the authors are indulging their own interest in queer/transgressive subcultures. That's their prerogative but it's not why I pick up C&C books.

I find the stuff on ages of consent distasteful in the extreme. I don't want to be anywhere near a game that gets into this kind of territory. The ick factor would be an immersion and enjoyment killer for me.

1: It can be viable with the right group and overall tone. Or serve as a great contrast to what the players or their characters were expecting. THIS is Berlin? roll sanity loss please. :eek:

2: Age of consent has waffled for ages and it makes sense when your life expectancy is substantially shorter as it was for many in ages past. This is set in the 1920s though in an area where certain groups all bets were off practically. For this book it can and will for some probably drift way too far into uncomfortable territory. YMMV of course. As allways. Talk it out with the DM or players.

Quote from: Marchand;1097214I can't really imagine the material the OP quotes actually being useful or used in-game. In that light I would have to wonder why it's in the book. With the most likely explanation being the authors are indulging their own interest in queer/transgressive subcultures. That's their prerogative but it's not why I pick up C&C books.

I find the stuff on ages of consent distasteful in the extreme. I don't want to be anywhere near a game that gets into this kind of territory. The ick factor would be an immersion and enjoyment killer for me.

To return to the comparison the OP makes, I can imagine players wanting to know what cars are available for the PCs to 'borrow' (especially in a game with well-articulated chase rules) (and it's on the cover of the book). I can't see much demand for a detailed gaming-out of a whoring expedition.

P.S. if you read the story Nyarlathotep, I think you'll have a good idea what Lovecraft would have thought of it.

I'm glad I'm not alone finding the info I quoted pretty useless in-game, and that I'm not the only one questioning the reasoning behind putting such emphasis on it all. That's why I thought Lynne Hardy had something to do with it all, because her Twitter has positive LGBTQ tweets and she's been involved in alot of new products. I have noticed how Chaosium has become more "inclusive", more political, etc, than in earlier years, not only in text but also in the artwork. That's why they do remakes of their own old scenarios, Masks of Nyarlathotep being a recent example. They have probably hopped on the woke train to terror. Which is such a shame when they should focus on making their scenarios and artwork scarier and less pulpy. Why not make the game for mature audiences in that regard?

I'm not sure about other people, but when I'm a Keeper I have never needed any historical info on different categories of prostitutes, regardless of setting and location. Info regarding 1920s transportation and car models or guns on the other hand is something I personally think is important for immersion. The NPC the Investigators are shadowing isn't just a Ford, it's a 1928 Model A Business Coupe. It's not just a revolver the Investigator carries, it's a Colt Army Special 32-20. I like to do alot of research like that, but I never researched the types of amputee and preteen prostitutes one might encounter in Berlin. And I wouldn't describe Berlin as some LGBTQ haven either. An American investigator hardly has to travel to Europe to see men dressed up as women in "Pansy Clubs" or play dice with syphilis.

[video=youtube_share;4zKnOV16WuQ]https://youtu.be/4zKnOV16WuQ[/youtube]

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097232I'm not sure about other people, but when I'm a Keeper I have never needed any historical info on different categories of prostitutes, regardless of setting and location. Info regarding 1920s transportation and car models or guns on the other hand is something I personally think is important for immersion. The NPC the Investigators are shadowing isn't just a Ford, it's a 1928 Model A Business Coupe. It's not just a revolver the Investigator carries, it's a Colt Army Special 32-20.

Different strokes for different folks. My players (who are all Berliners who playtested the game) frankly couldn't care less about whether a car is Benz Söhne or an Opel Laubfrosch. And cares only what the damage the gun does and its chances of misfire. But they cared tremendously about having coke-fuelled session with Anita Berber and her monkey. And whether their erratic playwright investigator would adapt the events of their recent investigations into the "Stärkster Mann" series of movies. Or how they would keep their film company afloat while the city and the country went to hell. And then stuff started happening that made them really want to find cabarets and other diversions to make them forget what they just dealt with....

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097232when I'm a Keeper I have never needed any historical info on [...] It's not just a revolver the Investigator carries, it's a Colt Army Special 32-20. I like to do alot of research like that,  

Because ultimately, you care about killing people (NPCs) and how to do it - not the culture they live in, what's driven them to the mythos or the milieu in which your targets sit?

Quote from: Marchand;1097214I find the stuff on ages of consent distasteful in the extreme. I don't want to be anywhere near a game that gets into this kind of territory. The ick factor would be an immersion and enjoyment killer for me.

Sorry - but can you explain why this is distasteful?  Consider Taxi Driver (1976). Nominated for four academy awards. Wikipedia: "The film was considered "culturally, historically or aesthetically" significant by the US Library of Congress and was selected for preservation in the National Film Registry in 1994."  It has 12 year old Jodie Foster playing a teenage prostitute.  Is this just inherently distasteful?  More/less than facts in a book? In the film, Travis Bickell kills a number of people in trying to save Iris, the prostitute. Does that make it OK?

I know that RPGs often have equipment lists that are sets of historical facts. It doesn't mean that historical facts are equipment lists.

Honestly, this is quite awesome and EXACTLY what I was hoping for in a CoC period piece book about Weimar Berlin! :) This is some good setting basics that are absolutely gameable with factions and disagreements, inside and outside groups. Now I can do "Cabaret" or "Victor, Victoria" with a mythos touch. ;)

Naturally, like all my CoC games, it'll be asking the very important question: with all that is said and done about crazy humanity, will you defend it? Even if it means death, a lifetime of even greater fear, or worse? Do you have hope for humanity? :)

So far this sounds concise, pertinent, gameable, AND optional. Nice!

Quote from: Anselyn;1097239Sorry - but can you explain why this is distasteful?

I find the concept of sex with minors not just distasteful, but abhorrent. Do I really need to explain that?

Quote from: Anselyn;1097239I know that RPGs often have equipment lists that are sets of historical facts. It doesn't mean that historical facts are equipment lists.

I think I see what you are driving at, but RPGs typically don't have lists of equipment that are never going to come up in play. If it's in the book, I assume it's because the authors thought the concept of paid sex with minors might arise in game. For ME (and I'm not trying to set rules for anyone else) that's so dark and difficult to handle appropriately in-game that I just don't want to go there at all.

I get it's partly a reference, but it's a gaming book not a history book and I don't feel obliged to play through some sort of statistically weighted sample of all the bad stuff that was happening in Berlin in the 1920s. "Bad news dude, you contracted TB."

This is not necessarily the book's fault but part of the ick factor for me is the mental image evoked of a bunch of middle-aged guys sitting around supposedly playing CoC but actually getting some sort of thrill out of "roleplaying" an underaged sex scenario.

QuoteI think 1920s/1930s Europe would be a good backdrop to set Mythos adventures in.
Places like Berlin, Paris, Prague, Rome, etc are a great canvas once you decide you want games further afield than Lovecraft County

Dude, you need to get out more. Call of Cthulhu's been setting stuff in Europe for decades. If GMs only stick with Murica, its not because there's a lack of material out there.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097238Because ultimately, you care about killing people (NPCs) and how to do it - not the culture they live in, what's driven them to the mythos or the milieu in which your targets sit?

I care about details like that, because I can find a nice picture of said car or revolver online and show the players. It helps immersion. And there are always players that ask "what kind of car is it?", "What kind of gun is it?" and since my players certainly know more about cars than I do, it helps me as a Keeper to be prepared with info. It kind of works like naming random NPCs, really. I have lists of the most popular names from different decades saved so it's pretty easy to make up a name on the spot and make it sound like the NPC is of some importance, has a stat block, etc.

Btw, I have no problems with prostitutes in a rpg session, but I don't research them. I doubt they were different from modern day hookers to be honest. The only thing worth researching regarding hookers would be the prices, where to find them and maybe a bit about STDs for that era/setting. But it has never come into play during a CoC session. I have watched alot of actual plays on Youtube as well, and I have never seen anyone picking up some prostitute when playing Call of Cthulhu. I actually doubt I will ever witness any podcast player longing to be balls deep in some Line-Boy named Rudi, regardless if they play any scenario in Berlin - The Wicked City.

I'm not edgy enough for playing out degenerate fuck fests with my old friends. My gaming sessions are not like some episodes of Game of Thrones where they throw in some full frontal dick just for the hell of it.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097120But hey, I've got an idea of a brand new line of Cthulhu supplements for you. Call of Cthulhu in the sleazy, funky '70s. Pornshops, whores, pimp canes, Shaft vs Cthulhu? Investigators could dress like this: [ATTACH=CONFIG]3632[/ATTACH]

Yeah. That looks great. Like Boogie Nights meets Call of Cthulhu. I'd run that game.

I have rarely played Call of Cthulhu and had no interest in the Berlin supplement, but you've inadvertently sold me on it. List of guns and cars I can easily find, but history I don't know, and local colour that will allow for a different and interesting roleplaying experience, that's why I'd buy a supplement book.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;1097251I have rarely played Call of Cthulhu and had no interest in the Berlin supplement, but you've inadvertently sold me on it. List of guns and cars I can easily find, but history I don't know, and local colour that will allow for a different and interesting roleplaying experience, that's why I'd buy a supplement book.

//Panjumanju

Then you should buy the Berlin supplement. It will surely give you and your gaming group a different kind of CoC setting. I prefer Lovecraftian horror to crossdressing horror, but to each his own. And like that old song went:

Hey Hey women are going mad, today
Hey Hey fellers are just as bad, I'll say
Go anywhere, just stand and stare
You'll say they're bugs when you
look at the clothes they wear

Masculine Women Feminine Men
which is the rooster which is the hen
It's hard to tell 'em apart today
And SAY...
Sister is busy learning to shave
Brother just loves his permanent wave
It's hard to tell 'em apart today
HEY HEY
Girls were girls and boys were boys
when i was a tot,
Now we don't know who is who or
even what's what
Knickers and trousers baggy and wide,
Nobody knows who's walking inside
Those Masculine Women Feminine Men

Masculine Women Feminine Men
Which is the rooster which is the hen
It's hard to tell 'em apart today
And SAY...
Auntie is smoking, rolling her own,
Uncle is always buying cologne
It's hard to tell 'em apart today
HEY HEY
You go and give your girl a kiss in the hall
But instead you find you're kissing
her brother Paul
Mama's got a sweater up to her chin,
Papa's got a girtle holding him in
Those Masculine Women Feminine Men
Stop, Look, Listen and you'll agree... with me
Things are not what they used to be... you'll see
You say hello to Uncle Joe,
Then look again and you find it's your Aunti Flo
Masculine Women Feminine Men
Which is the rooster which is the hen
It's hard to tell 'em apart today
And SAY...
Wifey is playing billiards and pool,
Hubby is dressing kiddies for school
It's hard to tell 'em apart today
HEY HEY
Ever since the Prince of Wales in
dresses was seen,
What does he intend to be the King or the Queen
Grandmother buys those tailor-made clothes
Grandfather tries to smell like a rose
Those Masculine Women Feminine Men

Quote from: richaje;1097234Different strokes for different folks. My players (who are all Berliners who playtested the game) frankly couldn't care less about whether a car is Benz Söhne or an Opel Laubfrosch. And cares only what the damage the gun does and its chances of misfire. But they cared tremendously about having coke-fuelled session with Anita Berber and her monkey. And whether their erratic playwright investigator would adapt the events of their recent investigations into the "Stärkster Mann" series of movies. Or how they would keep their film company afloat while the city and the country went to hell. And then stuff started happening that made them really want to find cabarets and other diversions to make them forget what they just dealt with....

Different strokes indeed. Cabarets, Coke binges with crossdressers and monkeys. I'm sure the supplement will find its proper crowd. The setting has already enthralled a few in this thread. It's a far cry from older Chaosium products though.

Quote from: Omega;1097210Very YMMV. To me it lacks some crucial data and seems to overfocus on the seedier side. But that seems to be the point. And if I recall right some of the lacking info is in other books. As noted above. It meshes well with more lurid fare and by extension should work with a group that can handle such a place.

At least two players I game with online would find the book potentially interesting. So I'll be recommending it to them. Others I would not as the subject matter would repulse them to some degree.

Thanks for that. It helps.

Some players like details about guns, cars, and planes, others are interested in fashion and drinks, and others are interested in politics and culture. As a GM I try to include some aspects of all of that. Playing CoC in 1920s Berlin while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the decadence of Wiemar Berlin strikes me as odd as playing CoC in 1920s Chicago and ignoring (or being ignorant of) Prohibition and the Mob. Why bother using a different setting if it isn't going to be different?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones). What's the purpose of this? That a PC can order himself a Telephone-Girl after a hard day's investigation or cruise suburban Berlin in his Mercedes-Benz Modell K looking for Wild-Boys? Strangely enough I had to google a German car model from the 1920s because stuff like that isn't found in the pdf.

I wonder if any of this was made up. This actually sounds kind of interesting as a setting. I would also take any claims for huge numbers of various groups with a grain of salt, considering that information gathering likely wasn't done with any great discipline. That said, I imagine it wouldn't be a LGBTQ wonderland, given the economic horror and jackbooted competitions for power because communists and national socialists.

Quote from: Lynn;1097269I wonder if any of this was made up. This actually sounds kind of interesting as a setting. I would also take any claims for huge numbers of various groups with a grain of salt, considering that information gathering likely wasn't done with any great discipline. That said, I imagine it wouldn't be a LGBTQ wonderland, given the economic horror and jackbooted competitions for power because communists and national socialists.

None of this is made up. I'm hardly an expert on this era of German history, but I've read a bit about it, and I've come across a lot of the information quoted above, from the supplement. Remember that Berlin was not a Nazi town - they were not so popular in the capital as they were in other parts of Germany, and Berlin was referred to dismissively as Red Berlin, in the 20s.

I'm a bit burnt out on CoC, after running it for years, but this book has got me interested in it again. As Bren said above, some players like details on guns and cars and some like politics and culture. My players are more interested in music, cocktails, nightclubs and society - and if the game is set in Berlin in this era, then all the stuff that the OP finds so offensive will be front and centre in any game I run in 1920s Berlin. It was so much a part of the culture of the time, that any game trying to be true to the era must include it. However, that doesn't mean that PCs have to approve or be part of LGBT culture.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. If it worries you, don't buy it. Play what you want. Personally I always thought the New England supplements were rather boring - but then I like cities, not the country. It's a game at the end of the day - not part of some conspiracy to destroy roleplaying (which seems to be the OPs belief - or perhaps he is just scared by queers! :D)

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;1097271It's a game at the end of the day - not part of some conspiracy to destroy roleplaying (which seems to be the OPs belief - or perhaps he is just scared by queers! :D)

Or both. Or in English is not necessarily an XOR. :D

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;1097271None of this is made up. I'm hardly an expert on this era of German history, but I've read a bit about it, and I've come across a lot of the information quoted above, from the supplement. Remember that Berlin was not a Nazi town - they were not so popular in the capital as they were in other parts of Germany, and Berlin was referred to dismissively as Red Berlin, in the 20s.

I'm a bit burnt out on CoC, after running it for years, but this book has got me interested in it again. As Bren said above, some players like details on guns and cars and some like politics and culture. My players are more interested in music, cocktails, nightclubs and society - and if the game is set in Berlin in this era, then all the stuff that the OP finds so offensive will be front and centre in any game I run in 1920s Berlin. It was so much a part of the culture of the time, that any game trying to be true to the era must include it. However, that doesn't mean that PCs have to approve or be part of LGBT culture.

Different strokes for different folks, of course. If it worries you, don't buy it. Play what you want. Personally I always thought the New England supplements were rather boring - but then I like cities, not the country. It's a game at the end of the day - not part of some conspiracy to destroy roleplaying (which seems to be the OPs belief - or perhaps he is just scared by queers! :D)

I'm glad a degenerate Berlin got your CoC juices flowing again. I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

And just because I'm slightly homophobic doesn't mean that this LGBTQIAMSOWOKE/SJW material in the newer products isn't part of a plan. How many gays, lesbians, transpeople, queers, genderfluids, etc, are playing CoC to be honest? I bet they aren't that many, but yet Chaosium feels the need to be inclusive in written products.

If a Maine supplement shows up on the market in the future, maybe some will get the juices flowing with the chance of playing a klansman who hates blacks, jews, Catholics (Irish and French-Canadians). Of course, that wouldn't be woke. But in the context of 1920s history it would be pretty accurate, wouldn't it? Just like the coked up prostitutes of Berlin?

Quote from: Marchand;1097245If it's in the book, I assume it's because the authors thought the concept of paid sex with minors might arise in game. For ME (and I'm not trying to set rules for anyone else) that's so dark and difficult to handle appropriately in-game that I just don't want to go there at all.

I see. I get where you're coming from. I took it to be there so you could be thinking:

a). This deed by the NPCs is abhorrent but legal in Berlin.
b)  That deed by the NPCs is abhorrent and illegal in Berlin.

The abhorrence is not in doubt - and all the deeds can be off-camera/stage. But - if even the concept of the acts is problematic for you then you can certainly play your X-card on the product.  

QuoteThis is not necessarily the book's fault but part of the ick factor for me is the mental image evoked of a bunch of middle-aged guys sitting around supposedly playing CoC but actually getting some sort of thrill out of "roleplaying" an underaged sex scenario.

I never imagined this possibility but if players are doing that then that's their sin not the book's. Being a jerk player and saying, "It's not me. It's the character" is a well-known problem, which I hoped we'd got past.  I don't think that this content of the book is implicit consent to do that anymore than giving something hitpoints is consent for players to kill it.

Edit/Comment: anymore than giving something hitpoints is consent for players to kill it. Shit - I'm naive aren't I ...

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283How many gays, lesbians, transpeople, queers, genderfluids, etc, are playing CoC to be honest? I bet they aren't that many...

That would be my guess. You have this double whammy of both Lovecraft himself and the time period the game is set in being "problematic" for people on the woke wagon.

Btw, I must correct myself. I'm not homophobic when it comes to some people. My favourite CoC Youtube-channel with actual plays is Into the Darkness. The man behind that channel is brilliant and also married to a man as far as I recall. But one thing he doesn't do is shove propaganda down viewer's throats when he is a Keeper. When he gets to play an Investigator he doesn't feel the need to state the sexuality of his characters. I respect that very much because the channel and the players focus on the horror scenario they're playing.

Quote from: Marchand;1097245I find the concept of sex with minors not just distasteful, but abhorrent. Do I really need to explain that?

For some? Probably you do? Like what do you define as a minor or not? I assume you mean an adult and a minor? What about two minors? I can guarantee you that whatever you or I might think is going to be totally ignored by about every other minor.

As for some sort of "thrill"? Why even assume that? This is CoC afterall so isnt it more likely the players and their PCs will be the sorts to find this stuff offensive as well? Or even find it suspicious? It has all the tell-tales of a cult of Shub-Niggurath in the background.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

I suspect it is the "exotic location" factor for some that is part of the allure. Same as some might find an adventure set in Sweden interesting, but others would be bored to tears. Its the same with this Berlin book. Its going to perk the interest of those wanting a more lurid setting area as opposed to the familliar crooks and crooked of their home setting wherever that may be. And that works the other way around to. Someone else might find a book set in say Tennessee, or focused on a city like Chicago, interesting.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

True, but 1920s Berlin has something no other city does: the imminent ascension of just about the only human political movement that virtually everybody today agrees resulted in pure, untrammelled, epic-scale evil. As a result that particular time and place has a sense of doom, gravitas and incipient horror that nothing else which is still recognizeably close to our own world possesses.

The human tragedy increases when we consider that the decadence of Weimar culture was one of the reasons the Nazis were voted into power in the first place; people were tired of their daughters turning to prostitution to keep a roof over their head, and wanted a stronger society that could keep that from happening. Part of the horror of Strong Man political solutions is that they are so often able to present themselves as benevolent by promising to address other evils, and the idea that one horror can conceal itself in the guise of fighting against another is a very Lovecraftian idea.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097284I see. I get where you're coming from. I took it to be there so you could be thinking:

a). This deed by the NPCs is abhorrent but legal in Berlin.
b)  That deed by the NPCs is abhorrent and illegal in Berlin.

The abhorrence is not in doubt - and all the deeds can be off-camera/stage. But - if even the concept of the acts is problematic for you then you can certainly play your X-card on the product.  



I never imagined this possibility but if players are doing that then that's their sin not the book's. Being a jerk player and saying, "It's not me. It's the character" is a well-known problem, which I hoped we'd got past.  I don't think that this content of the book is implicit consent to do that anymore than giving something hitpoints is consent for players to kill it.

Edit/Comment: anymore than giving something hitpoints is consent for players to kill it. Shit - I'm naive aren't I ...

Haha, indeed... For avoidance of doubt, I have no problem with sexual decadence as a theme! Even involving minors I get in theory could actually add to the horror if done right at the right table with a group you knew well. Potentially very strong motivation for the PCs to get stuck in. However for me personally it would be a fine line before the ick factor ruined my fun.

Quote from: Omega;1097289For some? Probably you do? Like what do you define as a minor or not? I assume you mean an adult and a minor? What about two minors? I can guarantee you that whatever you or I might think is going to be totally ignored by about every other minor.

I am not getting into this discussion, sorry.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1097294True, but 1920s Berlin has something no other city does: the imminent ascension of just about the only human political movement that virtually everybody today agrees resulted in pure, untrammelled, epic-scale evil. As a result that particular time and place has a sense of doom, gravitas and incipient horror that nothing else which is still recognizeably close to our own world possesses.

This is exactly why I was mulling picking up the book. The players' (as opposed to PCs') foreknowledge of what's coming down the track adds to the horror, which makes Berlin an inspired choice of setting.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1097294True, but 1920s Berlin has something no other city does: the imminent ascension of just about the only human political movement that virtually everybody today agrees resulted in pure, untrammelled, epic-scale evil. As a result that particular time and place has a sense of doom, gravitas and incipient horror that nothing else which is still recognizeably close to our own world possesses.

The human tragedy increases when we consider that the decadence of Weimar culture was one of the reasons the Nazis were voted into power in the first place; people were tired of their daughters turning to prostitution to keep a roof over their head, and wanted a stronger society that could keep that from happening. Part of the horror of Strong Man political solutions is that they are so often able to present themselves as benevolent by promising to address other evils, and the idea that one horror can conceal itself in the guise of fighting against another is a very Lovecraftian idea.

Well the nazis actually set up lots of military brothels during WWII so decadent cabarets and hookers might not have been the biggest problem after all. It might have been more in line with this:

"The fortunes of the National Socialist German Workers Party changed with the Wall Street Crash in October 1929. Desperate for capital, the United States began to recall loans from Europe. One of the consequences of this was a rapid increase in unemployment. Germany, whose economy relied heavily on investment from the United States, suffered more than any other country in Europe.

Before the crash, 1.25 million people were unemployed in Germany. By the end of 1930 the figure had reached nearly 4 million, 15.3 per cent of the population. Even those in work suffered as many were only working part-time. With the drop in demand for labour, wages also fell and those with full-time work had to survive on lower incomes. Hitler, who was considered a fool in 1928 when he predicted economic disaster, was now seen in a different light. People began to say that if he was clever enough to predict the depression maybe he also knew how to solve it."

You can read the entire article here: https://spartacus-educational.com/GERunemployment.htm (https://spartacus-educational.com/GERunemployment.htm)

And aren't you forgetting the bolshevik revolution and the rise of communism? For that epic-scale evil I mean? It went on in the east during the Weimar Republic. Stalin was taking care of his mass murderous shit back in 1924 already. But maybe communist mass murder is water under the bridge? Funny how bolsheviks and communists always slip under the EVIL radar. Well, unless you are speaking to people who lived under communist regimes that is. Maybe people should have listened more to Patton back in the day?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1097247Dude, you need to get out more. Call of Cthulhu's been setting stuff in Europe for decades. If GMs only stick with Murica, its not because there's a lack of material out there.

Mate I don't need to get out more, I've been playing this game for decades and have a fair number of the titles.
Of course many campaigns touch on other locations beyond New England and USA.
I was just pointing out that once one leaves the shores of the USA, then things are going to feel different elsewhere.

Homophobia, "oh, please think the children," and "never mind the Nazis what about those damn commies?" It's the right wing nutbar trifecta.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Bren;1097305Homophobia, "oh, please think the children," and "never mind the Nazis what about those damn commies?" It's the right wing nutbar trifecta.:rolleyes:

Says the SJW communist apologist. You're probably wearing your precious Che Guevara T-shirt right now too along with your rainbow-coloured fingernails. I'm actually not right wing you see. I vote for SD in Sweden.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3637[/ATTACH]

This is probably a selfie of you though, following the thread from your parked car:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3638[/ATTACH]

You're from Scandahoovia? That figures.  But I still can't decide if you are a simple troll or an insane troll.

Quote from: Bren;1097308You're from Scandahoovia? That figures.  But I still can't decide if you are a simple troll or an insane troll.

I'm the troll, the insane troll even? Look at your Little Miss Contrary/shit posts. You're like a guy from The Argument Sketch by Monty Python. And what is it about me being Scandinavian? As a SJW leftist/Pride-marching/Antifa-supporting neckbeard you would probably love the social experiment that goes on in Sweden now. Gender-neutral preschools, massive immigration, rapes, gang shootings, explosions, gypsy beggars, returning ISIS terrorists that go unpunished and people screaming "nazi!" as soon as you are more conservative than them.

Quote from: sirlarkins;1097112Safe to say the book isn't your cup of Schnapps, it seems. Glad to see other folks on the thread picking up what it's putting down.

I'm busy packing for a 10-day trip, but a few notes:

First off, let me say, very sincerely, Welcome to theRPGsite.  I recognize that the average poster here is very likely to not be the type of person who is likely to hold your own views, and that you may face some hostility from posters here. They may be rude, they're protected by the free speech rules here, but so are you. And I find it very admirable that knowing this and that you're likely to face harsh critics here (some maybe with fair points, others less so) you decided to come anyways.  That's a rare thing nowadays, particularly from one side of the ideological spectrum that seems more interesting in censoring views it doesn't agree with, rather than debating or confronting those views.

Second, from what the OP posted, it sure sounds like you did a considerable amount of research into Weimar-era Berlin. I don't know if you know that I'm an historian by training and find that quite admirable. Aside from details about the sexual underbelly of Berlin, given that it's an occult-horror RPG, did you look at all at the Occult world of Berlin at the time?
I mean, this was after all a city that no less than Aleister Crowley visited (check out Tobias Churton's very excellent The Beast in Berlin for more historical information on that). And of course the world of Weimar Occultism and the Weimar Sex Trade were intertwined.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1097317First off, let me say, very sincerely, Welcome to theRPGsite.  I recognize that the average poster here is very likely to not be the type of person who is likely to hold your own views, and that you may face some hostility from posters here. They may be rude, they're protected by the free speech rules here, but so are you. And I find it very admirable that knowing this and that you're likely to face harsh critics here (some maybe with fair points, others less so) you decided to come anyways.  That's a rare thing nowadays, particularly from one side of the ideological spectrum that seems more interesting in censoring views it doesn't agree with, rather than debating or confronting those views.

Second, from what the OP posted, it sure sounds like you did a considerable amount of research into Weimar-era Berlin. I don't know if you know that I'm an historian by training and find that quite admirable. Aside from details about the sexual underbelly of Berlin, given that it's an occult-horror RPG, did you look at all at the Occult world of Berlin at the time?
I mean, this was after all a city that no less than Aleister Crowley visited (check out Tobias Churton's very excellent The Beast in Berlin for more historical information on that). And of course the world of Weimar Occultism and the Weimar Sex Trade were intertwined.

"The Beast in Berlin" was one of our reference sources - and yes, Crowley is not only mentioned, but an NPC in one of the scenarios.

As an aside, there's a bizarre occult bookstore in Schöneberg that claims a connection to Crowley (admittedly the claim is probably bogus) and just down the street from us is the Grand National Mother Lodge, "The Three Globes" - which is the oldest Freemason lodge in Germany (founded in 1740). It is hard not to find a reference to the Occult world in Berlin.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283I'm glad a degenerate Berlin got your CoC juices flowing again. I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

And just because I'm slightly homophobic doesn't mean that this LGBTQIAMSOWOKE/SJW material in the newer products isn't part of a plan. How many gays, lesbians, transpeople, queers, genderfluids, etc, are playing CoC to be honest? I bet they aren't that many, but yet Chaosium feels the need to be inclusive in written products.

If a Maine supplement shows up on the market in the future, maybe some will get the juices flowing with the chance of playing a klansman who hates blacks, jews, Catholics (Irish and French-Canadians). Of course, that wouldn't be woke. But in the context of 1920s history it would be pretty accurate, wouldn't it? Just like the coked up prostitutes of Berlin?

Sorry to disappoint, but coked-up trans hookers with whips or whatever do not get my juices flowing for CoC again. The point I was trying to make - perhaps poorly - was that all the stuff you find offensive in the book was actually a BIG part of 1920s Berlin - it happened. Tourists would go to the more sleazy cabarets to sample the true spirit of Berlin - most didn't partake of what was on offer, but they wanted to 'experience' it. Like taking pictures of the Grand Canyon if you go to Arizona.

I and my players like to try to recreate the feel of a place and time in any historical game we play, so this material would be useful for me if I ran a CoC or any other game set in 1920s Berlin. I would want a supplement set in Stalin's Soviet Union to have information to recreate the feel of that place and time - it's the way we like to play. I've run games set in 1947 London that mentions the continuation of food rationing (actually worse than in the war), the drinking dens of Soho, the revivalist jazz clubs (it was a new boom time for British jazz), the large number of undeveloped bombsites from the Blitz, and the sense of dislocation felt by many people because of the war.

I don't think this stuff is in the supplement you find offensive is there to appeal to LGBT players - I think it's there because it's pertinent. I can't see why you have a problem understanding this. In the end, if you don't like it, you won't buy it. So why are you so worked up by this supplement? Why do you assume everyone expressing an interest in it is turned on by the decadence of Berlin and/or a dirty commie?

Are you just a troll?

For anyone interested in playing games set in 1920s Berlin, I can recommend a real of the recently published detective novel 'Metropolis' by Phillip Kerr. Kerr's novels about German detective Bernie Gunter are all very well researched - and this, his last (sadly the author died soon after completing 'Metropolis') is no exception. In this book Gunter is a new detective on the Berlin murder squad, trying to catch a serial killer. The book is not only a good read, but will be useful for mining for incidental details of Berlin life in 1929. For instance, wages are so low that virtually everyone has to supplement their main income however they can. For women it is often selling themselves after work - known as 'going on the sledge' (as they are now on a slippery slope).

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;1097323Sorry to disappoint, but coked-up trans hookers with whips or whatever do not get my juices flowing for CoC again. The point I was trying to make - perhaps poorly - was that all the stuff you find offensive in the book was actually a BIG part of 1920s Berlin - it happened. Tourists would go to the more sleazy cabarets to sample the true spirit of Berlin - most didn't partake of what was on offer, but they wanted to 'experience' it. Like taking pictures of the Grand Canyon if you go to Arizona.

I and my players like to try to recreate the feel of a place and time in any historical game we play, so this material would be useful for me if I ran a CoC or any other game set in 1920s Berlin. I would want a supplement set in Stalin's Soviet Union to have information to recreate the feel of that place and time - it's the way we like to play. I've run games set in 1947 London that mentions the continuation of food rationing (actually worse than in the war), the drinking dens of Soho, the revivalist jazz clubs (it was a new boom time for British jazz), the large number of undeveloped bombsites from the Blitz, and the sense of dislocation felt by many people because of the war.

I don't think this stuff is in the supplement you find offensive is there to appeal to LGBT players - I think it's there because it's pertinent. I can't see why you have a problem understanding this. In the end, if you don't like it, you won't buy it. So why are you so worked up by this supplement? Why do you assume everyone expressing an interest in it is turned on by the decadence of Berlin and/or a dirty commie?

Are you just a troll?

Comparing sleazy cabarets with androgyne men with the grandure of a natural wonder like the Grand Canyon makes me wonder if you are the real troll, actually. But no worries. I also do my research with the aim to capture the ambience of different settings, but describing prostitution and drag queens as something unique to Berlin wouldn't be my focus at all. The spirit of 1920s New York, the city that never sleeps, seems to be about LGBTQs and parties too according to the article below:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-the-early-20th-century-america-was-awash-in-incredible-queer-nightlife (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-the-early-20th-century-america-was-awash-in-incredible-queer-nightlife)

Not a single word about the "Pansy Craze" in NY in the old supplement Secrets of New York though, I'm afraid. But 2005 was so long ago and people weren't fully woke and inclusive back then. This was before any angry bluehaired buttercups could give Chaosium shit on Twitter. I only found this sad little tidbit in that old supplement:

"Morgana Kingston, Cross-Dressing Fortuneteller
Morgana Kingston was born Morgan Kingston. He
lives in Brooklyn's Bush Terminal district, where he
resides as "Morgan." One else is aware of his secret, and
Morgan would be shattered it were discovered. Crossdressing
and transvestitism are not commonplace during
the twenties, but each did exist in New York City,
and the majority of society shunned both."

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097303And aren't you forgetting the bolshevik revolution and the rise of communism? For that epic-scale evil I mean? It went on in the east during the Weimar Republic. Stalin was taking care of his mass murderous shit back in 1924 already. But maybe communist mass murder is water under the bridge? Funny how bolsheviks and communists always slip under the EVIL radar.

Not at all; I personally agree that communist totalitarianism was just as evil as the racist supremacist variety.

The problem is that too many people today still somehow think the only problem with Communism is that it's never been successfully executed (pardon the bleak pun), so you can't bank on everyone at the gaming table sharing the same sense of doom about Moscow in the 1910s as they do about Berlin in the 1920s.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;1097271None of this is made up. I'm hardly an expert on this era of German history, but I've read a bit about it, and I've come across a lot of the information quoted above, from the supplement. Remember that Berlin was not a Nazi town - they were not so popular in the capital as they were in other parts of Germany, and Berlin was referred to dismissively as Red Berlin, in the 20s.

Yes, I found an interesting article over on Spiegel Online (https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/how-the-nazis-succeeded-in-taking-power-in-red-berlin-a-866793.html) about this very topic. The bits originally shared had a lot of local color. It is important to me (as it should others) if portions of the presentation of a real world location reflects the real world location, and the 'fantasy' is added in a way that doesn't present itself as part of that - but rather what is 'under the skin' so to speak. But that is also typical of many RPG products that mirror the real world.

Lovecraft (and his friends, like REH) were very well read, but they took liberties with exotic places, cultures and religions. We can do better and, in doing so, also upgrade the sophistication of the horror.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097332Comparing sleazy cabarets with androgyne men with the grandure of a natural wonder like the Grand Canyon makes me wonder if you are the real troll, actually. But no worries. I also do my research with the aim to capture the ambience of different settings, but describing prostitution and drag queens as something unique to Berlin wouldn't be my focus at all. The spirit of 1920s New York, the city that never sleeps, seems to be about LGBTQs and parties too according to the article below:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-the-early-20th-century-america-was-awash-in-incredible-queer-nightlife (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-the-early-20th-century-america-was-awash-in-incredible-queer-nightlife)

Not a single word about the "Pansy Craze" in NY in the old supplement Secrets of New York though, I'm afraid. But 2005 was so long ago and people weren't fully woke and inclusive back then. This was before any angry bluehaired buttercups could give Chaosium shit on Twitter.

Looks like simply poor research that relies on secondary sources and lurid journalism of the time. It isn't much better than trying to piece together an image of the present day based on a snapshot of material collected off of Twitter, Tumblr and the most biased of news sources. It is also one of the reasons why, although I still enjoy it, I enjoy Stranger Things a bit less. It assembles a view of society which more and more seems derived from popular movies.

Quote from: Lynn;1097344Looks like simply poor research that relies on secondary sources and lurid journalism of the time. It isn't much better than trying to piece together an image of the present day based on a snapshot of material collected off of Twitter, Tumblr and the most biased of news sources. It is also one of the reasons why, although I still enjoy it, I enjoy Stranger Things a bit less. It assembles a view of society which more and more seems derived from popular movies.

Did you read the article? The author of Slumming is a professor at George Washington University. Here is the book itself:

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo5485381.html (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo5485381.html)

Newspaper articles from that very era could very well be regarded as good primary sources. Anyway, New York Age and the Pittsburg Courier was apparently black, popular newspapers. I don't know how lurid they were:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Age)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Courier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Courier)



The so called Pansy Craze was also a real thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy_Craze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy_Craze)

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/sep/14/pansy-craze-the-wild-1930s-drag-parties-that-kickstarted-gay-nightlife (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/sep/14/pansy-craze-the-wild-1930s-drag-parties-that-kickstarted-gay-nightlife)

A historian also wrote this book which is mentioned in the article:

https://www.amazon.com/Gay-New-York-Culture-1890-1940/dp/0465026214 (https://www.amazon.com/Gay-New-York-Culture-1890-1940/dp/0465026214)

But keep on doubting will you. I'm amazed that you seem to trust the research done by Chaosium though.

Quote from: richaje;1097321"The Beast in Berlin" was one of our reference sources - and yes, Crowley is not only mentioned, but an NPC in one of the scenarios.

As an aside, there's a bizarre occult bookstore in Schöneberg that claims a connection to Crowley (admittedly the claim is probably bogus) and just down the street from us is the Grand National Mother Lodge, "The Three Globes" - which is the oldest Freemason lodge in Germany (founded in 1740). It is hard not to find a reference to the Occult world in Berlin.

squeee! :D Yay, I hope there are more blurbs than just an NPC walk-on, but this Crowley cameo is fun. Is there more IRL occult Berlin references in the 300+ page book, either sprinkled or set aside as a sub-chapter? :)

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097384But keep on doubting will you. I'm amazed that you seem to trust the research done by Chaosium though.

I guess you missed the part when I asked about Chaosium sources.

I don't doubt that the specific references of performers performing or that someone famous showed up to a nightclub. A lot of American cities at the time had seamier sides. But that doesn't mean it was readily accepted by the vast majority of residents or, if they even many of the residents knew what was happening. Generally speaking, there are 'bad parts of town' where good, decent, "God fearing Christians" simply do not go.

Newspaper articles can be informative and primary sources, but shouldn't be the only ones. Where it becomes problematic is when researchers gather those articles and then extrapolate about society at large based on those articles.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097311I'm the troll, the insane troll even?

Yes. That is what I implied. You aren't doing anything to change my opinion.

QuoteLook at your Little Miss Contrary/shit posts.

You seem to have me confuses with one of your fevered, paranoid delusions. What shit posts are you talking about?

QuoteAnd what is it about me being Scandinavian?

In mythology trolls are from Scandinavia. Sweden is in Scandinavia. Maybe now you can connect the dots.

Quote...you would probably love the social experiment that goes on in Sweden now.

I've been to Sweden. I went shotgun shooting in the country and drinking in bars. The places and cities I visited didn't seem like a hell on earth. The alcohol was expensive, but I liked the restaurants that provided blankets for customers at their outside tables. Very thoughtful.

Quote from: Bren;1097305Homophobia, "oh, please think the children," and "never mind the Nazis what about those damn commies?" It's the right wing nutbar trifecta.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Bren;1097308You're from Scandahoovia? That figures.  But I still can't decide if you are a simple troll or an insane troll.

Quote from: Bren;1097477Yes. That is what I implied. You aren't doing anything to change my opinion.

You seem to have me confuses with one of your fevered, paranoid delusions. What shit posts are you talking about?

In mythology trolls are from Scandinavia. Sweden is in Scandinavia. Maybe now you can connect the dots.

I've been to Sweden. I went shotgun shooting in the country and drinking in bars. The places and cities I visited didn't seem like a hell on earth. The alcohol was expensive, but I liked the restaurants that provided blankets for customers at their outside tables. Very thoughtful.

These are some of your shit posts. Sure you have been to Sweden. Seen it all, ey?

Have you visited Göteborg, Malmö, Stockholm, Västerås and their suburbs? Did you see the dope dealers and the street thugs out in the open? Did you see the gypsy beggars saying "Hej hej" and posing with fake pictures of their sick children back home? They can be found by every major food store, you know?

Did you notice any burning cars? Did you notice the police choppers? Have you ever smelled the acrid air after a shooting, or ducked under police barricade tape in order to get to your local pizza place when the cops are out looking for casings? Have you witnessed the 1970s and 80s as a kid and seen how Sweden slowly has turned into utter shit, a place where they even rob the elderly and young children? In two of the areas I have lived in there were also "mosques" with ISIS connections. In the same city. And my city isn't even the hotbed for ISIS recruits. Some days I can spend hours outside my apartment without hearing a single word of actual Swedish, well maybe apart from a phrase like "Jag ska knulla din morsa!" that some gangster wannabe kid spits out in public.

Have you visited IKEA just a couple of days after a mother and son got stabbed to death right there by some random lowlife immigrant just "because the victims looked Swedish"? Did you visit a hospital where they now have to have security guards to keep the staff and patients safe from people looking for vendettas? Did you read about our medical care, once so great, where cancer patients are dying waiting for treatment? Did you visit any of the retirement homes where the elderly can't even get proper meals, can't understand what the personell are saying and where they die neglected and in their own fecal matter. All this just because of the burden of the HOLY but costly immigration that is putting every commune in the red. I bet you haven't seen anything like this during your visit.

Nah, you went out skeet shooting in the lush countryside, probably with some of your fancy friends with sailboats, nice cars, nice houses or apartments in the more privileged areas of Stockholm. Of course you wouldn't go out slumming in Sweden. Then you went clubbing and even got a blanket at a restaurant. Do you really think you would get a blanket where I live? Well, maybe you could get one of these blankets if you happened to come across the wrong people:

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This has strayed too far from the topic of RPGs and gone on too long. Sorry all.

Awww, there, there, GIMME SOME SUGAR. :( I am sure it must hurt your heart to see your beloved home change before your eyes. Interestingly enough what you described sounds quite familiar to this American. (It just doesn't really bother me after exposed to so much :D) That said, having also lived overseas, know that you are in familiar company with people from all over the world. :)

Heard similar from Saudis ("car accident is your fault because if you were not here the accident would not have happened!"), Koreans, etc. and Americans from throughout urbal, suburban, and rural circles. :( Know that you are not alone, sometimes change is too fast for some. :)

That said, and to keep this to gaming, what do you find worthwhile to game in a CoC period piece supplement? :) If cars and weaponry makes you happy, but violent seediness makes you mad, where does that leave gameplay? :o And if all cities are interchangeably seedy in their time and place, and that is not where you want gameplay, then is all that arsenal for drive-by shootings of bucolic suburbs (against cultists, of course ;))?

Contrast, friction, and risk is at the heart of adventure. It was a topic In Nomine had to address about what to do for adventure in heaven; answer being hell is better for adventures than heaven. When harmony mitigates contrast, friction, and risk then what becomes available for adventurous material shrinks.

So what do you actually want in a CoC regional/period supplement? Since you think seediness is interchageable, what is there that makes cities and eras worthwhile to game? What draws you in, more weapon & car readouts with their regional availability? Language, class, and cultural encounters? Or are you just not the market for regional and period supplements and instead want more adventures? And do you prefer simpler moral adventures over complicated ethical adventures? :) Discuss!

Quote from: richaje;1097321"The Beast in Berlin" was one of our reference sources - and yes, Crowley is not only mentioned, but an NPC in one of the scenarios.

As an aside, there's a bizarre occult bookstore in Schöneberg that claims a connection to Crowley (admittedly the claim is probably bogus) and just down the street from us is the Grand National Mother Lodge, "The Three Globes" - which is the oldest Freemason lodge in Germany (founded in 1740). It is hard not to find a reference to the Occult world in Berlin.

Very glad to hear that.

Now, with regards to the material on the sexual underground of Weimar Germany, this thread has already established that it is apparently given a very thorough treatment; but is it treated in a complex way? What I mean is, I saw reference here to the idea of a group of sex-worker and LGBT investigators defeating cultists or whatever, but is that meant to imply that in the book this sexually-liberated underside of Berlin is presented only as a force of good and righteousness?

Because it certainly does seem to me that part of the Mythos concept is that the fringes of society tend to be ripe for infestation with Mythos Cultism; so is part of that underworld in the service of the Elder Gods?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1097337Not at all; I personally agree that communist totalitarianism was just as evil as the racist supremacist variety.

The problem is that too many people today still somehow think the only problem with Communism is that it's never been successfully executed (pardon the bleak pun), so you can't bank on everyone at the gaming table sharing the same sense of doom about Moscow in the 1910s as they do about Berlin in the 1920s.

Stop posting off-topic. Only warning.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097604These are some of your shit posts. Sure you have been to Sweden. Seen it all, ey?

Have you visited Göteborg, Malmö, Stockholm, Västerås and their suburbs? Did you see the dope dealers and the street thugs out in the open? Did you see the gypsy beggars saying "Hej hej" and posing with fake pictures of their sick children back home? They can be found by every major food store, you know?

Did you notice any burning cars? Did you notice the police choppers? Have you ever smelled the acrid air after a shooting, or ducked under police barricade tape in order to get to your local pizza place when the cops are out looking for casings? Have you witnessed the 1970s and 80s as a kid and seen how Sweden slowly has turned into utter shit, a place where they even rob the elderly and young children? In two of the areas I have lived in there were also "mosques" with ISIS connections. In the same city. And my city isn't even the hotbed for ISIS recruits. Some days I can spend hours outside my apartment without hearing a single word of actual Swedish, well maybe apart from a phrase like "Jag ska knulla din morsa!" that some gangster wannabe kid spits out in public.

Have you visited IKEA just a couple of days after a mother and son got stabbed to death right there by some random lowlife immigrant just "because the victims looked Swedish"? Did you visit a hospital where they now have to have security guards to keep the staff and patients safe from people looking for vendettas? Did you read about our medical care, once so great, where cancer patients are dying waiting for treatment? Did you visit any of the retirement homes where the elderly can't even get proper meals, can't understand what the personell are saying and where they die neglected and in their own fecal matter. All this just because of the burden of the HOLY but costly immigration that is putting every commune in the red. I bet you haven't seen anything like this during your visit.

Nah, you went out skeet shooting in the lush countryside, probably with some of your fancy friends with sailboats, nice cars, nice houses or apartments in the more privileged areas of Stockholm. Of course you wouldn't go out slumming in Sweden. Then you went clubbing and even got a blanket at a restaurant. Do you really think you would get a blanket where I live? Well, maybe you could get one of these blankets if you happened to come across the wrong people:

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This is your only warning. Stop posting into off-topic politics.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1097616Awww, there, there, GIMME SOME SUGAR. :( I am sure it must hurt your heart to see your beloved home change before your eyes. Interestingly enough what you described sounds quite familiar to this American. (It just doesn't really bother me after exposed to so much :D) That said, having also lived overseas, know that you are in familiar company with people from all over the world. :)

Heard similar from Saudis ("car accident is your fault because if you were not here the accident would not have happened!"), Koreans, etc. and Americans from throughout urbal, suburban, and rural circles. :( Know that you are not alone, sometimes change is too fast for some. :)

That said, and to keep this to gaming, what do you find worthwhile to game in a CoC period piece supplement? :) If cars and weaponry makes you happy, but violent seediness makes you mad, where does that leave gameplay? :o And if all cities are interchangeably seedy in their time and place, and that is not where you want gameplay, then is all that arsenal for drive-by shootings of bucolic suburbs (against cultists, of course ;))?

Contrast, friction, and risk is at the heart of adventure. It was a topic In Nomine had to address about what to do for adventure in heaven; answer being hell is better for adventures than heaven. When harmony mitigates contrast, friction, and risk then what becomes available for adventurous material shrinks.

So what do you actually want in a CoC regional/period supplement? Since you think seediness is interchageable, what is there that makes cities and eras worthwhile to game? What draws you in, more weapon & car readouts with their regional availability? Language, class, and cultural encounters? Or are you just not the market for regional and period supplements and instead want more adventures? And do you prefer simpler moral adventures over complicated ethical adventures? :) Discuss!

I have nothing against violence in CoC. Seediness can be so many things though. I watch porn like anyone else. I'm not a prude in that way. But when it come to Lovecraftian horror I am more in line with Lovecrafts works. If an rpg would aim to be a celebration of Friday the 13th movies and other slasher movies, I would except lots of tits and sex plus death to those that have sex.

I don't mind details at all. In fact I love details. I don't mind information on how many hookers there were in big cities like Gaslight era London or in 1920s New York. Information regarding the seedy underbelly with speakeasies, gangsters, heroinists, whores and pimps can be quite useful for a citybased scenario or a campaign. What bothers me is HOW it's presented in the campaign material or scenario. And inclusiveness as a marker in a rpg work bothers me too. I rather it not being mentioned at all. It was never mentioned earlier in earlier editions of CoC, yet nobody stopped Keepers from being inclusive around their gaming tables.

And a city is so much more than hookers, drugs, some random jazz and gangsters. I like the kind of information I dig up in real world travel guides of the era in question. Places to see, landmarks, the difference between neighbourhoods, travel and transportation, how people dressed and talked, their moral codes and values, if their telephones were on a party line, architecture and the city's more ancient history.

All this can naturally be found on archive.org, in old art, in old film, etc. I have lots and lots of historical texts that cover a wide range of topics from Native American legends, serial killers of different eras, cannibalism in Oceania, whaling in the Berin Strait in the 1800s and furniture plus state of the art prefab house catalogues of the 1920s. I like details, and I'm a serious hoarder. I doubt I will ever read even 10% of all the old books I saved on my harddrives. But those kind of details and how to connect it all to the Mythos is what I would like to get from a supplement, although I must confess I rather see new scenarios than supplements like Berlin or The Secrets of New York. And most of all I would want advice how to turn a scenario into something horrific. Chaosium should focus on keeping things creepy and scary. 1920s big cities with flappers, fox trot and where things were "the bee's knees" is in fact very hard to use as a scenic backdrop for a horror scenario. Pulp horror, sure. But something really creepy? That's difficult. That's why I prefer wilderness scenarios or at least locations remote enough to be far away from the burlesque, the glitz and the glamour. Pennsylvian Dutch with their beliefs and Old world witchcraft, tainted bloodlines, monstrous coffin-births buried in some godforsaken holler and Native lore is much more appealing to me than bootleggers and Cotton Club dancers in sequin dresses.  

The attention to details is what makes me never finish the scenarios I write myself. I get caught up in census records, historical floor plans, unusual handguns, zoology, geographical data and the history of for instance whaling or an area in the Adirondacks. It's some kind of disorder I guess. Or just me trying for some kind of perfection. I know that most Keepers that would run a published scenario  of mine (in the near future) couldn't care less what kind of trees there are in some country doctor's garden or what book he has on his nightstand. But as I'm trying to write my first CoC scenario in English I not only have to alot of historical research but also look up what things are called in English. I will provide an example of me and details, in an PDF-excerpt from the scenario I'm writing (well, trying to) at the moment:

A high level of detail gives my players and me a sense of immersion. Just like a properly done era movie a scenario can be ruined by sloppy research or anachronisms (sometimes such anachronisms can be used for the sake of inclusiveness). I feel the same about a horror scenario that takes place in our world. Fantasy is easier in that regard.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uknq1hg6m8fm3nq/AAAmFEnugEj_9ihkfy34B4ONa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uknq1hg6m8fm3nq/AAAmFEnugEj_9ihkfy34B4ONa?dl=0)

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097641But when it come to Lovecraftian horror I am more in line with Lovecrafts works.

So, you are actively rejecting the commonly accepted elements of the Mythos post-Lovecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'golonac

Quote from: Anselyn;1097712So, you are actively rejecting the commonly accepted elements of the Mythos post-Lovecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'golonac

Except some elements are not "commonly accepted". Even Chaosium called out Derleth for example for pigeonholing the various beings into more defined good and evil camps as it were. Others havent been too thrilled with say Campbell's works. As with everything Lovecraftian it is totally YMMV.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097712So, you are actively rejecting the commonly accepted elements of the Mythos post-Lovecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'golonac

Not rejecting per se, but I won't write a scenario featuring the deity in question any day soon. If you add sex and perversion to the horror, well soon enough you'll sit there with a scenario that is more suited for Kult. I like to keep CoC and Kult different. And I'm not altogether familiar with what deities and beings Ramsey Campbell has brought to the fold. I just read some of his stories from the Inhabitant of the Lake & Less Welcome Tenants, mostly because of the Iron Maiden song Still Life. And if I ever publish a CoC scenario then there's the issue of copyright. I'm not 100% sure of what Mythos creatures are safe to use. Some writers are so protective of their fantasies (unlike Lovecraft). I remember back in the early Myspace Music days when me and an American wanted to title our little music project Necroscope. I got the idea from Overkills album Horrorscope, just replacing "Horror" with "Necro". It didn't take long before we were contacted by some Lumley stooge who warned us about copyright infringement. I was very surprised because I had never read Lumley. But we changed the name. It wasn't a big deal, really. But since that day I have regarded Brian Lumley as a cunt.

Quote from: Omega;1097717Except some elements are not "commonly accepted". Even Chaosium called out Derleth for example for pigeonholing the various beings into more defined good and evil camps as it were. Others havent been too thrilled with say Campbell's works. As with everything Lovecraftian it is totally YMMV.

I agree. But if we are talking about playing Chaosium's game Call of Cthulhu then Y'golonac is in it (to use if you wish). Certainly - from 2nd edition (1983) onwards. That's the earliest version I have available to check.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097752I agree. But if we are talking about playing Chaosium's game Call of Cthulhu then Y'golonac is in it (to use if you wish). Certainly - from 2nd edition (1983) onwards. That's the earliest version I have available to check.

Being in the book and being "commonly accepted" are not exactly the same thing. There is I believe some Severn Valley stuff scattered about as well. I thought there was a whole sourcebook but can not find it so may be misremembering.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097712So, you are actively rejecting the commonly accepted elements of the Mythos post-Lovecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'golonac

Yeah, I would.

Quote from: Omega;1097753There is I believe some Severn Valley stuff scattered about as well. I thought there was a whole sourcebook but can not find it so may be misremembering.

Ramsey Campbell's Goatswood and Less Pleasant Places: A Present Day Severn Valley Sourcebook and Campaign for Call of Cthulhu Paperback – 1 Jul 2001
by Scott David Aniolowski (Author, Editor), Gary Sumpter (Editor), Lynn Willis (Editor)

Quote from: Anselyn;1097847Ramsey Campbell's Goatswood and Less Pleasant Places: A Present Day Severn Valley Sourcebook and Campaign for Call of Cthulhu Paperback – 1 Jul 2001
by Scott David Aniolowski (Author, Editor), Gary Sumpter (Editor), Lynn Willis (Editor)

I have that one! I like it very much & it is useful to me. I also have the adventure book that are essentially sequels of several famous Lovecraft stories, with an optional intertwining into a grand campaign available. Solid stuff! I totally want to run the Pickman's Model one.

I hope they make another one for Laird Barron and his Leech Chronicles. I know T. E. D. Klein has his "Black Man with a Horn" shuggoran in CoC 5.5 Creature Compendium.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1097629Very glad to hear that.

Now, with regards to the material on the sexual underground of Weimar Germany, this thread has already established that it is apparently given a very thorough treatment; but is it treated in a complex way? What I mean is, I saw reference here to the idea of a group of sex-worker and LGBT investigators defeating cultists or whatever, but is that meant to imply that in the book this sexually-liberated underside of Berlin is presented only as a force of good and righteousness?

Because it certainly does seem to me that part of the Mythos concept is that the fringes of society tend to be ripe for infestation with Mythos Cultism; so is part of that underworld in the service of the Elder Gods?

IMO no group should be presented only as a "force of good and righteousness" (or vice versa). All human beings are capable of great nobility or of equally great villainy.

https://www.neverreadthelatin.com/blog/an-interview-with-david-larkins-about-berlin-the-wicked-city

"It is certainly not a setting for everyone, as it necessarily deals with issues of sexuality and hedonistic behavior that not every group wants in their horror games, but if that's something your group is comfortable tackling, the experiences baked into a Berlin-centered campaign promise to be quite removed from your classic games.

(I also like to amuse myself by thinking that Lovecraft himself would have been repelled by the contents of the book!)

 The thoroughness of the description of the LGBTQI community in Berlin at the time offers a fascinating potential for individual roleplay and fleshing out the environment and interactions in Call of Cthulhu. It's also something that hasn't really been included in past Call of Cthulhu products. What was the process that lead to the inclusion?

It's something that came out of my research. I was fascinated to learn about the massive queer community in Berlin between the wars, of people like Annemarie Schwarzenbach and Magnus Hirschfeld. It quickly became apparent that to leave this part of Berlin's cultural identity unaddressed in the text would be to commit a tremendous crime of elision.

 At that point in the writing process, I saw the opportunity presenting itself to open up a discussion about playing LGBTQI investigators in the setting, something that every single play-test group took advantage of to at least some degree. A setting like Berlin allows for players with 21st-century sensibilities and interests to jump into a place nearly a century removed from us that accommodates those mindsets--indeed, one that has many strange and chilling parallels to our own time.

 A final note: I want to give credit here to Desiree Valdez and Sam Riordan for their informed feedback and sensitivity reading of the sections covering queer culture and player-characters in the book. The text is much stronger for their contributions."

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Call of Cthulhu, like many other RPGs, is written by people who lean to the left. That's probably why you're seeing what you're seeing. As I recall, Adventurer, Conqueror, King was made by right-wingers and has even been banned by Big Purple, as I think it's called, so if you want something with right-wing credentials that might be your best bet. Of course, it's a different genre (heroic fantasy).

That said, I think 'decadence' is going to be a major theme in any game that uses Weimar Berlin as a setting--that's what it's known for, after all. It fits well with Mythos themes of corruption and things turning into what they shouldn't. The sense of impending doom with the Nazis taking over also fits Call of Cthulhu--some campaigns have even suggested (within the game setting of course) bad things in the 30s were a result of the Mythos gaining a victory.

You might prefer something in a rural setting, where these issues are less likely to intrude. Certainly there are no shortage of Cthulhu stories in those.

There's no reason not to break out one of the old globe-trotting campaigns like Shadows of Yog-Sothoth, Masks of Nyarlathotep, or Tatters of the King if you really want to do Call of Cthulhu. Weimar Berlin is pretty much going to be about these themes--it's made popular by musicals and movies like Cabaret which have similar themes-- so it's accurate to the setting.

I agree most of this would have been too kinky for Lovecraft--of course, normal sex seems to have been too kinky for Lovecraft. He was a very abnormal fellow, and I doubt a normal fellow would have come up with the Cthulhu Mythos. He actively encouraged other authors like Howard and Bloch to use his monsters and exchanged creatures with them (they even kill each other off in a pair of stories), so it's not surprising Cthulhu is going in directions he wouldn't have imagined.

Quote from: Null42;1101896Call of Cthulhu, like many other RPGs, is written by people who lean to the left. That's probably why you're seeing what you're seeing. As I recall, Adventurer, Conqueror, King was made by right-wingers and has even been banned by Big Purple, as I think it's called, so if you want something with right-wing credentials that might be your best bet. Of course, it's a different genre (heroic fantasy).

That said, I think 'decadence' is going to be a major theme in any game that uses Weimar Berlin as a setting--that's what it's known for, after all. It fits well with Mythos themes of corruption and things turning into what they shouldn't. The sense of impending doom with the Nazis taking over also fits Call of Cthulhu--some campaigns have even suggested (within the game setting of course) bad things in the 30s were a result of the Mythos gaining a victory.

You might prefer something in a rural setting, where these issues are less likely to intrude. Certainly there are no shortage of Cthulhu stories in those.

There's no reason not to break out one of the old globe-trotting campaigns like Shadows of Yog-Sothoth, Masks of Nyarlathotep, or Tatters of the King if you really want to do Call of Cthulhu. Weimar Berlin is pretty much going to be about these themes--it's made popular by musicals and movies like Cabaret which have similar themes-- so it's accurate to the setting.

I agree most of this would have been too kinky for Lovecraft--of course, normal sex seems to have been too kinky for Lovecraft. He was a very abnormal fellow, and I doubt a normal fellow would have come up with the Cthulhu Mythos. He actively encouraged other authors like Howard and Bloch to use his monsters and exchanged creatures with them (they even kill each other off in a pair of stories), so it's not surprising Cthulhu is going in directions he wouldn't have imagined.

Well, I'm not really right wing, but I get your point. I'm just tired of all the LGBTQ-propaganda. It's like everyone but me and people I know personally is intersex or transgender now or promoting the politics of it all. Yet they are such a small minority in any nation and consumer group. You're also correct that I prefer rural scenarios, away from the big city glitz and crossdressers. I find that sequin don't mesh all that well with horror. New York was just as decadent as Berlin btw. I understand the decadence of the 1920s. But it's nothing compared to the moral decay and decadence of 2019. I just found the interview odd (queer?) with phrases such as this:

"At that point in the writing process, I saw the opportunity presenting itself to open up a discussion about playing LGBTQI investigators in the setting, something that every single play-test group took advantage of to at least some degree. A setting like Berlin allows for players with 21st-century sensibilities and interests to jump into a place nearly a century removed from us that accommodates those mindsets--indeed, one that has many strange and chilling parallels to our own time."

Is there really such a demand to play Investigators who are Cabaret crossdressers or teen hookers? And it goes beyond "kinky". It's fucking perverse. It describes preteen hookers even. What campaign use do people have of that fact?

Damn, I feel so old and misplaced. I don't have that magical, rainbow-coloured 21st-century sensibility. Am I the odd duck? Or are they? Is the Gift of 21st-century Sight found in the blue hair or the Seattle neckbeard? I just want to play a horror game with twisted monsters.

Well, here's hoping for some genuine Swedish motherfucking darkness in the upcoming Swedish Cthulhu version. Otherwise I'm done giving Chaosium or anybody who supports them money. I will continue to collect the old material that was made before the plush Cthulhu days, but Chaosium won't get a cent from me ever again since I will go for used books. They can keep their crossdressers and 21st-century sensibilities, their Scooby-Doo cover art and their nagging little blurbs about the horrid racism in the 1920s (as if it was new to people who can read). In fact, they can shove it all up their woke, inclusive asses. Lovecraft would have been ashamed.


[video=youtube_share;t484dYZrq1U]https://youtu.be/t484dYZrq1U?t=2148[/youtube]