Quote from: Gruntfuttock;1097271None of this is made up. I'm hardly an expert on this era of German history, but I've read a bit about it, and I've come across a lot of the information quoted above, from the supplement. Remember that Berlin was not a Nazi town - they were not so popular in the capital as they were in other parts of Germany, and Berlin was referred to dismissively as Red Berlin, in the 20s.

Yes, I found an interesting article over on Spiegel Online about this very topic. The bits originally shared had a lot of local color. It is important to me (as it should others) if portions of the presentation of a real world location reflects the real world location, and the 'fantasy' is added in a way that doesn't present itself as part of that - but rather what is 'under the skin' so to speak. But that is also typical of many RPG products that mirror the real world.

Lovecraft (and his friends, like REH) were very well read, but they took liberties with exotic places, cultures and religions. We can do better and, in doing so, also upgrade the sophistication of the horror.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097332Comparing sleazy cabarets with androgyne men with the grandure of a natural wonder like the Grand Canyon makes me wonder if you are the real troll, actually. But no worries. I also do my research with the aim to capture the ambience of different settings, but describing prostitution and drag queens as something unique to Berlin wouldn't be my focus at all. The spirit of 1920s New York, the city that never sleeps, seems to be about LGBTQs and parties too according to the article below:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-the-early-20th-century-america-was-awash-in-incredible-queer-nightlife

Not a single word about the "Pansy Craze" in NY in the old supplement Secrets of New York though, I'm afraid. But 2005 was so long ago and people weren't fully woke and inclusive back then. This was before any angry bluehaired buttercups could give Chaosium shit on Twitter.

Looks like simply poor research that relies on secondary sources and lurid journalism of the time. It isn't much better than trying to piece together an image of the present day based on a snapshot of material collected off of Twitter, Tumblr and the most biased of news sources. It is also one of the reasons why, although I still enjoy it, I enjoy Stranger Things a bit less. It assembles a view of society which more and more seems derived from popular movies.

Quote from: Lynn;1097344Looks like simply poor research that relies on secondary sources and lurid journalism of the time. It isn't much better than trying to piece together an image of the present day based on a snapshot of material collected off of Twitter, Tumblr and the most biased of news sources. It is also one of the reasons why, although I still enjoy it, I enjoy Stranger Things a bit less. It assembles a view of society which more and more seems derived from popular movies.

Did you read the article? The author of Slumming is a professor at George Washington University. Here is the book itself:

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo5485381.html

Newspaper articles from that very era could very well be regarded as good primary sources. Anyway, New York Age and the Pittsburg Courier was apparently black, popular newspapers. I don't know how lurid they were:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Courier



The so called Pansy Craze was also a real thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansy_Craze

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/sep/14/pansy-craze-the-wild-1930s-drag-parties-that-kickstarted-gay-nightlife

A historian also wrote this book which is mentioned in the article:

https://www.amazon.com/Gay-New-York-Culture-1890-1940/dp/0465026214

But keep on doubting will you. I'm amazed that you seem to trust the research done by Chaosium though.

Quote from: richaje;1097321"The Beast in Berlin" was one of our reference sources - and yes, Crowley is not only mentioned, but an NPC in one of the scenarios.

As an aside, there's a bizarre occult bookstore in Schöneberg that claims a connection to Crowley (admittedly the claim is probably bogus) and just down the street from us is the Grand National Mother Lodge, "The Three Globes" - which is the oldest Freemason lodge in Germany (founded in 1740). It is hard not to find a reference to the Occult world in Berlin.

squeee! Yay, I hope there are more blurbs than just an NPC walk-on, but this Crowley cameo is fun. Is there more IRL occult Berlin references in the 300+ page book, either sprinkled or set aside as a sub-chapter?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097384But keep on doubting will you. I'm amazed that you seem to trust the research done by Chaosium though.

I guess you missed the part when I asked about Chaosium sources.

I don't doubt that the specific references of performers performing or that someone famous showed up to a nightclub. A lot of American cities at the time had seamier sides. But that doesn't mean it was readily accepted by the vast majority of residents or, if they even many of the residents knew what was happening. Generally speaking, there are 'bad parts of town' where good, decent, "God fearing Christians" simply do not go.

Newspaper articles can be informative and primary sources, but shouldn't be the only ones. Where it becomes problematic is when researchers gather those articles and then extrapolate about society at large based on those articles.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097311I'm the troll, the insane troll even?

Yes. That is what I implied. You aren't doing anything to change my opinion.

QuoteLook at your Little Miss Contrary/shit posts.

You seem to have me confuses with one of your fevered, paranoid delusions. What shit posts are you talking about?

QuoteAnd what is it about me being Scandinavian?

In mythology trolls are from Scandinavia. Sweden is in Scandinavia. Maybe now you can connect the dots.

Quote...you would probably love the social experiment that goes on in Sweden now.

I've been to Sweden. I went shotgun shooting in the country and drinking in bars. The places and cities I visited didn't seem like a hell on earth. The alcohol was expensive, but I liked the restaurants that provided blankets for customers at their outside tables. Very thoughtful.

Quote from: Bren;1097305Homophobia, "oh, please think the children," and "never mind the Nazis what about those damn commies?" It's the right wing nutbar trifecta.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Bren;1097308You're from Scandahoovia? That figures.  But I still can't decide if you are a simple troll or an insane troll.

Quote from: Bren;1097477Yes. That is what I implied. You aren't doing anything to change my opinion.

You seem to have me confuses with one of your fevered, paranoid delusions. What shit posts are you talking about?

In mythology trolls are from Scandinavia. Sweden is in Scandinavia. Maybe now you can connect the dots.

I've been to Sweden. I went shotgun shooting in the country and drinking in bars. The places and cities I visited didn't seem like a hell on earth. The alcohol was expensive, but I liked the restaurants that provided blankets for customers at their outside tables. Very thoughtful.

These are some of your shit posts. Sure you have been to Sweden. Seen it all, ey?

Have you visited Göteborg, Malmö, Stockholm, Västerås and their suburbs? Did you see the dope dealers and the street thugs out in the open? Did you see the gypsy beggars saying "Hej hej" and posing with fake pictures of their sick children back home? They can be found by every major food store, you know?

Did you notice any burning cars? Did you notice the police choppers? Have you ever smelled the acrid air after a shooting, or ducked under police barricade tape in order to get to your local pizza place when the cops are out looking for casings? Have you witnessed the 1970s and 80s as a kid and seen how Sweden slowly has turned into utter shit, a place where they even rob the elderly and young children? In two of the areas I have lived in there were also "mosques" with ISIS connections. In the same city. And my city isn't even the hotbed for ISIS recruits. Some days I can spend hours outside my apartment without hearing a single word of actual Swedish, well maybe apart from a phrase like "Jag ska knulla din morsa!" that some gangster wannabe kid spits out in public.

Have you visited IKEA just a couple of days after a mother and son got stabbed to death right there by some random lowlife immigrant just "because the victims looked Swedish"? Did you visit a hospital where they now have to have security guards to keep the staff and patients safe from people looking for vendettas? Did you read about our medical care, once so great, where cancer patients are dying waiting for treatment? Did you visit any of the retirement homes where the elderly can't even get proper meals, can't understand what the personell are saying and where they die neglected and in their own fecal matter. All this just because of the burden of the HOLY but costly immigration that is putting every commune in the red. I bet you haven't seen anything like this during your visit.

Nah, you went out skeet shooting in the lush countryside, probably with some of your fancy friends with sailboats, nice cars, nice houses or apartments in the more privileged areas of Stockholm. Of course you wouldn't go out slumming in Sweden. Then you went clubbing and even got a blanket at a restaurant. Do you really think you would get a blanket where I live? Well, maybe you could get one of these blankets if you happened to come across the wrong people:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3657[/ATTACH]

This has strayed too far from the topic of RPGs and gone on too long. Sorry all.

Awww, there, there, GIMME SOME SUGAR. I am sure it must hurt your heart to see your beloved home change before your eyes. Interestingly enough what you described sounds quite familiar to this American. (It just doesn't really bother me after exposed to so much ) That said, having also lived overseas, know that you are in familiar company with people from all over the world.

Heard similar from Saudis ("car accident is your fault because if you were not here the accident would not have happened!"), Koreans, etc. and Americans from throughout urbal, suburban, and rural circles. Know that you are not alone, sometimes change is too fast for some.

That said, and to keep this to gaming, what do you find worthwhile to game in a CoC period piece supplement? If cars and weaponry makes you happy, but violent seediness makes you mad, where does that leave gameplay? And if all cities are interchangeably seedy in their time and place, and that is not where you want gameplay, then is all that arsenal for drive-by shootings of bucolic suburbs (against cultists, of course )?

Contrast, friction, and risk is at the heart of adventure. It was a topic In Nomine had to address about what to do for adventure in heaven; answer being hell is better for adventures than heaven. When harmony mitigates contrast, friction, and risk then what becomes available for adventurous material shrinks.

So what do you actually want in a CoC regional/period supplement? Since you think seediness is interchageable, what is there that makes cities and eras worthwhile to game? What draws you in, more weapon & car readouts with their regional availability? Language, class, and cultural encounters? Or are you just not the market for regional and period supplements and instead want more adventures? And do you prefer simpler moral adventures over complicated ethical adventures? Discuss!

Quote from: richaje;1097321"The Beast in Berlin" was one of our reference sources - and yes, Crowley is not only mentioned, but an NPC in one of the scenarios.

As an aside, there's a bizarre occult bookstore in Schöneberg that claims a connection to Crowley (admittedly the claim is probably bogus) and just down the street from us is the Grand National Mother Lodge, "The Three Globes" - which is the oldest Freemason lodge in Germany (founded in 1740). It is hard not to find a reference to the Occult world in Berlin.

Very glad to hear that.

Now, with regards to the material on the sexual underground of Weimar Germany, this thread has already established that it is apparently given a very thorough treatment; but is it treated in a complex way? What I mean is, I saw reference here to the idea of a group of sex-worker and LGBT investigators defeating cultists or whatever, but is that meant to imply that in the book this sexually-liberated underside of Berlin is presented only as a force of good and righteousness?

Because it certainly does seem to me that part of the Mythos concept is that the fringes of society tend to be ripe for infestation with Mythos Cultism; so is part of that underworld in the service of the Elder Gods?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1097337Not at all; I personally agree that communist totalitarianism was just as evil as the racist supremacist variety.

The problem is that too many people today still somehow think the only problem with Communism is that it's never been successfully executed (pardon the bleak pun), so you can't bank on everyone at the gaming table sharing the same sense of doom about Moscow in the 1910s as they do about Berlin in the 1920s.

Stop posting off-topic. Only warning.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097604These are some of your shit posts. Sure you have been to Sweden. Seen it all, ey?

Have you visited Göteborg, Malmö, Stockholm, Västerås and their suburbs? Did you see the dope dealers and the street thugs out in the open? Did you see the gypsy beggars saying "Hej hej" and posing with fake pictures of their sick children back home? They can be found by every major food store, you know?

Did you notice any burning cars? Did you notice the police choppers? Have you ever smelled the acrid air after a shooting, or ducked under police barricade tape in order to get to your local pizza place when the cops are out looking for casings? Have you witnessed the 1970s and 80s as a kid and seen how Sweden slowly has turned into utter shit, a place where they even rob the elderly and young children? In two of the areas I have lived in there were also "mosques" with ISIS connections. In the same city. And my city isn't even the hotbed for ISIS recruits. Some days I can spend hours outside my apartment without hearing a single word of actual Swedish, well maybe apart from a phrase like "Jag ska knulla din morsa!" that some gangster wannabe kid spits out in public.

Have you visited IKEA just a couple of days after a mother and son got stabbed to death right there by some random lowlife immigrant just "because the victims looked Swedish"? Did you visit a hospital where they now have to have security guards to keep the staff and patients safe from people looking for vendettas? Did you read about our medical care, once so great, where cancer patients are dying waiting for treatment? Did you visit any of the retirement homes where the elderly can't even get proper meals, can't understand what the personell are saying and where they die neglected and in their own fecal matter. All this just because of the burden of the HOLY but costly immigration that is putting every commune in the red. I bet you haven't seen anything like this during your visit.

Nah, you went out skeet shooting in the lush countryside, probably with some of your fancy friends with sailboats, nice cars, nice houses or apartments in the more privileged areas of Stockholm. Of course you wouldn't go out slumming in Sweden. Then you went clubbing and even got a blanket at a restaurant. Do you really think you would get a blanket where I live? Well, maybe you could get one of these blankets if you happened to come across the wrong people:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3657[/ATTACH]

This is your only warning. Stop posting into off-topic politics.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1097616Awww, there, there, GIMME SOME SUGAR. I am sure it must hurt your heart to see your beloved home change before your eyes. Interestingly enough what you described sounds quite familiar to this American. (It just doesn't really bother me after exposed to so much ) That said, having also lived overseas, know that you are in familiar company with people from all over the world.

Heard similar from Saudis ("car accident is your fault because if you were not here the accident would not have happened!"), Koreans, etc. and Americans from throughout urbal, suburban, and rural circles. Know that you are not alone, sometimes change is too fast for some.

That said, and to keep this to gaming, what do you find worthwhile to game in a CoC period piece supplement? If cars and weaponry makes you happy, but violent seediness makes you mad, where does that leave gameplay? And if all cities are interchangeably seedy in their time and place, and that is not where you want gameplay, then is all that arsenal for drive-by shootings of bucolic suburbs (against cultists, of course )?

Contrast, friction, and risk is at the heart of adventure. It was a topic In Nomine had to address about what to do for adventure in heaven; answer being hell is better for adventures than heaven. When harmony mitigates contrast, friction, and risk then what becomes available for adventurous material shrinks.

So what do you actually want in a CoC regional/period supplement? Since you think seediness is interchageable, what is there that makes cities and eras worthwhile to game? What draws you in, more weapon & car readouts with their regional availability? Language, class, and cultural encounters? Or are you just not the market for regional and period supplements and instead want more adventures? And do you prefer simpler moral adventures over complicated ethical adventures? Discuss!

I have nothing against violence in CoC. Seediness can be so many things though. I watch porn like anyone else. I'm not a prude in that way. But when it come to Lovecraftian horror I am more in line with Lovecrafts works. If an rpg would aim to be a celebration of Friday the 13th movies and other slasher movies, I would except lots of tits and sex plus death to those that have sex.

I don't mind details at all. In fact I love details. I don't mind information on how many hookers there were in big cities like Gaslight era London or in 1920s New York. Information regarding the seedy underbelly with speakeasies, gangsters, heroinists, whores and pimps can be quite useful for a citybased scenario or a campaign. What bothers me is HOW it's presented in the campaign material or scenario. And inclusiveness as a marker in a rpg work bothers me too. I rather it not being mentioned at all. It was never mentioned earlier in earlier editions of CoC, yet nobody stopped Keepers from being inclusive around their gaming tables.

And a city is so much more than hookers, drugs, some random jazz and gangsters. I like the kind of information I dig up in real world travel guides of the era in question. Places to see, landmarks, the difference between neighbourhoods, travel and transportation, how people dressed and talked, their moral codes and values, if their telephones were on a party line, architecture and the city's more ancient history.

All this can naturally be found on archive.org, in old art, in old film, etc. I have lots and lots of historical texts that cover a wide range of topics from Native American legends, serial killers of different eras, cannibalism in Oceania, whaling in the Berin Strait in the 1800s and furniture plus state of the art prefab house catalogues of the 1920s. I like details, and I'm a serious hoarder. I doubt I will ever read even 10% of all the old books I saved on my harddrives. But those kind of details and how to connect it all to the Mythos is what I would like to get from a supplement, although I must confess I rather see new scenarios than supplements like Berlin or The Secrets of New York. And most of all I would want advice how to turn a scenario into something horrific. Chaosium should focus on keeping things creepy and scary. 1920s big cities with flappers, fox trot and where things were "the bee's knees" is in fact very hard to use as a scenic backdrop for a horror scenario. Pulp horror, sure. But something really creepy? That's difficult. That's why I prefer wilderness scenarios or at least locations remote enough to be far away from the burlesque, the glitz and the glamour. Pennsylvian Dutch with their beliefs and Old world witchcraft, tainted bloodlines, monstrous coffin-births buried in some godforsaken holler and Native lore is much more appealing to me than bootleggers and Cotton Club dancers in sequin dresses.  

The attention to details is what makes me never finish the scenarios I write myself. I get caught up in census records, historical floor plans, unusual handguns, zoology, geographical data and the history of for instance whaling or an area in the Adirondacks. It's some kind of disorder I guess. Or just me trying for some kind of perfection. I know that most Keepers that would run a published scenario  of mine (in the near future) couldn't care less what kind of trees there are in some country doctor's garden or what book he has on his nightstand. But as I'm trying to write my first CoC scenario in English I not only have to alot of historical research but also look up what things are called in English. I will provide an example of me and details, in an PDF-excerpt from the scenario I'm writing (well, trying to) at the moment:

A high level of detail gives my players and me a sense of immersion. Just like a properly done era movie a scenario can be ruined by sloppy research or anachronisms (sometimes such anachronisms can be used for the sake of inclusiveness). I feel the same about a horror scenario that takes place in our world. Fantasy is easier in that regard.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uknq1hg6m8fm3nq/AAAmFEnugEj_9ihkfy34B4ONa?dl=0

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097641But when it come to Lovecraftian horror I am more in line with Lovecrafts works.

So, you are actively rejecting the commonly accepted elements of the Mythos post-Lovecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'golonac

Quote from: Anselyn;1097712So, you are actively rejecting the commonly accepted elements of the Mythos post-Lovecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y'golonac

Except some elements are not "commonly accepted". Even Chaosium called out Derleth for example for pigeonholing the various beings into more defined good and evil camps as it were. Others havent been too thrilled with say Campbell's works. As with everything Lovecraftian it is totally YMMV.