Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

I suspect it is the "exotic location" factor for some that is part of the allure. Same as some might find an adventure set in Sweden interesting, but others would be bored to tears. Its the same with this Berlin book. Its going to perk the interest of those wanting a more lurid setting area as opposed to the familliar crooks and crooked of their home setting wherever that may be. And that works the other way around to. Someone else might find a book set in say Tennessee, or focused on a city like Chicago, interesting.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

True, but 1920s Berlin has something no other city does: the imminent ascension of just about the only human political movement that virtually everybody today agrees resulted in pure, untrammelled, epic-scale evil. As a result that particular time and place has a sense of doom, gravitas and incipient horror that nothing else which is still recognizeably close to our own world possesses.

The human tragedy increases when we consider that the decadence of Weimar culture was one of the reasons the Nazis were voted into power in the first place; people were tired of their daughters turning to prostitution to keep a roof over their head, and wanted a stronger society that could keep that from happening. Part of the horror of Strong Man political solutions is that they are so often able to present themselves as benevolent by promising to address other evils, and the idea that one horror can conceal itself in the guise of fighting against another is a very Lovecraftian idea.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097284I see. I get where you're coming from. I took it to be there so you could be thinking:

a). This deed by the NPCs is abhorrent but legal in Berlin.
b)  That deed by the NPCs is abhorrent and illegal in Berlin.

The abhorrence is not in doubt - and all the deeds can be off-camera/stage. But - if even the concept of the acts is problematic for you then you can certainly play your X-card on the product.  



I never imagined this possibility but if players are doing that then that's their sin not the book's. Being a jerk player and saying, "It's not me. It's the character" is a well-known problem, which I hoped we'd got past.  I don't think that this content of the book is implicit consent to do that anymore than giving something hitpoints is consent for players to kill it.

Edit/Comment: anymore than giving something hitpoints is consent for players to kill it. Shit - I'm naive aren't I ...

Haha, indeed... For avoidance of doubt, I have no problem with sexual decadence as a theme! Even involving minors I get in theory could actually add to the horror if done right at the right table with a group you knew well. Potentially very strong motivation for the PCs to get stuck in. However for me personally it would be a fine line before the ick factor ruined my fun.

Quote from: Omega;1097289For some? Probably you do? Like what do you define as a minor or not? I assume you mean an adult and a minor? What about two minors? I can guarantee you that whatever you or I might think is going to be totally ignored by about every other minor.

I am not getting into this discussion, sorry.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1097294True, but 1920s Berlin has something no other city does: the imminent ascension of just about the only human political movement that virtually everybody today agrees resulted in pure, untrammelled, epic-scale evil. As a result that particular time and place has a sense of doom, gravitas and incipient horror that nothing else which is still recognizeably close to our own world possesses.

This is exactly why I was mulling picking up the book. The players' (as opposed to PCs') foreknowledge of what's coming down the track adds to the horror, which makes Berlin an inspired choice of setting.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1097294True, but 1920s Berlin has something no other city does: the imminent ascension of just about the only human political movement that virtually everybody today agrees resulted in pure, untrammelled, epic-scale evil. As a result that particular time and place has a sense of doom, gravitas and incipient horror that nothing else which is still recognizeably close to our own world possesses.

The human tragedy increases when we consider that the decadence of Weimar culture was one of the reasons the Nazis were voted into power in the first place; people were tired of their daughters turning to prostitution to keep a roof over their head, and wanted a stronger society that could keep that from happening. Part of the horror of Strong Man political solutions is that they are so often able to present themselves as benevolent by promising to address other evils, and the idea that one horror can conceal itself in the guise of fighting against another is a very Lovecraftian idea.

Well the nazis actually set up lots of military brothels during WWII so decadent cabarets and hookers might not have been the biggest problem after all. It might have been more in line with this:

"The fortunes of the National Socialist German Workers Party changed with the Wall Street Crash in October 1929. Desperate for capital, the United States began to recall loans from Europe. One of the consequences of this was a rapid increase in unemployment. Germany, whose economy relied heavily on investment from the United States, suffered more than any other country in Europe.

Before the crash, 1.25 million people were unemployed in Germany. By the end of 1930 the figure had reached nearly 4 million, 15.3 per cent of the population. Even those in work suffered as many were only working part-time. With the drop in demand for labour, wages also fell and those with full-time work had to survive on lower incomes. Hitler, who was considered a fool in 1928 when he predicted economic disaster, was now seen in a different light. People began to say that if he was clever enough to predict the depression maybe he also knew how to solve it."

You can read the entire article here: https://spartacus-educational.com/GERunemployment.htm

And aren't you forgetting the bolshevik revolution and the rise of communism? For that epic-scale evil I mean? It went on in the east during the Weimar Republic. Stalin was taking care of his mass murderous shit back in 1924 already. But maybe communist mass murder is water under the bridge? Funny how bolsheviks and communists always slip under the EVIL radar. Well, unless you are speaking to people who lived under communist regimes that is. Maybe people should have listened more to Patton back in the day?

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1097247Dude, you need to get out more. Call of Cthulhu's been setting stuff in Europe for decades. If GMs only stick with Murica, its not because there's a lack of material out there.

Mate I don't need to get out more, I've been playing this game for decades and have a fair number of the titles.
Of course many campaigns touch on other locations beyond New England and USA.
I was just pointing out that once one leaves the shores of the USA, then things are going to feel different elsewhere.

Homophobia, "oh, please think the children," and "never mind the Nazis what about those damn commies?" It's the right wing nutbar trifecta.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Bren;1097305Homophobia, "oh, please think the children," and "never mind the Nazis what about those damn commies?" It's the right wing nutbar trifecta.:rolleyes:

Says the SJW communist apologist. You're probably wearing your precious Che Guevara T-shirt right now too along with your rainbow-coloured fingernails. I'm actually not right wing you see. I vote for SD in Sweden.

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This is probably a selfie of you though, following the thread from your parked car:

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You're from Scandahoovia? That figures.  But I still can't decide if you are a simple troll or an insane troll.

Quote from: Bren;1097308You're from Scandahoovia? That figures.  But I still can't decide if you are a simple troll or an insane troll.

I'm the troll, the insane troll even? Look at your Little Miss Contrary/shit posts. You're like a guy from The Argument Sketch by Monty Python. And what is it about me being Scandinavian? As a SJW leftist/Pride-marching/Antifa-supporting neckbeard you would probably love the social experiment that goes on in Sweden now. Gender-neutral preschools, massive immigration, rapes, gang shootings, explosions, gypsy beggars, returning ISIS terrorists that go unpunished and people screaming "nazi!" as soon as you are more conservative than them.

Quote from: sirlarkins;1097112Safe to say the book isn't your cup of Schnapps, it seems. Glad to see other folks on the thread picking up what it's putting down.

I'm busy packing for a 10-day trip, but a few notes:

First off, let me say, very sincerely, Welcome to theRPGsite.  I recognize that the average poster here is very likely to not be the type of person who is likely to hold your own views, and that you may face some hostility from posters here. They may be rude, they're protected by the free speech rules here, but so are you. And I find it very admirable that knowing this and that you're likely to face harsh critics here (some maybe with fair points, others less so) you decided to come anyways.  That's a rare thing nowadays, particularly from one side of the ideological spectrum that seems more interesting in censoring views it doesn't agree with, rather than debating or confronting those views.

Second, from what the OP posted, it sure sounds like you did a considerable amount of research into Weimar-era Berlin. I don't know if you know that I'm an historian by training and find that quite admirable. Aside from details about the sexual underbelly of Berlin, given that it's an occult-horror RPG, did you look at all at the Occult world of Berlin at the time?
I mean, this was after all a city that no less than Aleister Crowley visited (check out Tobias Churton's very excellent The Beast in Berlin for more historical information on that). And of course the world of Weimar Occultism and the Weimar Sex Trade were intertwined.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1097317First off, let me say, very sincerely, Welcome to theRPGsite.  I recognize that the average poster here is very likely to not be the type of person who is likely to hold your own views, and that you may face some hostility from posters here. They may be rude, they're protected by the free speech rules here, but so are you. And I find it very admirable that knowing this and that you're likely to face harsh critics here (some maybe with fair points, others less so) you decided to come anyways.  That's a rare thing nowadays, particularly from one side of the ideological spectrum that seems more interesting in censoring views it doesn't agree with, rather than debating or confronting those views.

Second, from what the OP posted, it sure sounds like you did a considerable amount of research into Weimar-era Berlin. I don't know if you know that I'm an historian by training and find that quite admirable. Aside from details about the sexual underbelly of Berlin, given that it's an occult-horror RPG, did you look at all at the Occult world of Berlin at the time?
I mean, this was after all a city that no less than Aleister Crowley visited (check out Tobias Churton's very excellent The Beast in Berlin for more historical information on that). And of course the world of Weimar Occultism and the Weimar Sex Trade were intertwined.

"The Beast in Berlin" was one of our reference sources - and yes, Crowley is not only mentioned, but an NPC in one of the scenarios.

As an aside, there's a bizarre occult bookstore in Schöneberg that claims a connection to Crowley (admittedly the claim is probably bogus) and just down the street from us is the Grand National Mother Lodge, "The Three Globes" - which is the oldest Freemason lodge in Germany (founded in 1740). It is hard not to find a reference to the Occult world in Berlin.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097283I'm glad a degenerate Berlin got your CoC juices flowing again. I wonder why CoC players/Keepers act as if Berlin had something that other big cities lacked when it comes to drugs, crossdressers and prostitutes. If music, fashion, cocktails, nightclubs, hookers with whips and heroin is the gist of your gaming sessions then why did you get burnt out by CoC earlier? 1920s New York would suffice for all the things I listed.

And just because I'm slightly homophobic doesn't mean that this LGBTQIAMSOWOKE/SJW material in the newer products isn't part of a plan. How many gays, lesbians, transpeople, queers, genderfluids, etc, are playing CoC to be honest? I bet they aren't that many, but yet Chaosium feels the need to be inclusive in written products.

If a Maine supplement shows up on the market in the future, maybe some will get the juices flowing with the chance of playing a klansman who hates blacks, jews, Catholics (Irish and French-Canadians). Of course, that wouldn't be woke. But in the context of 1920s history it would be pretty accurate, wouldn't it? Just like the coked up prostitutes of Berlin?

Sorry to disappoint, but coked-up trans hookers with whips or whatever do not get my juices flowing for CoC again. The point I was trying to make - perhaps poorly - was that all the stuff you find offensive in the book was actually a BIG part of 1920s Berlin - it happened. Tourists would go to the more sleazy cabarets to sample the true spirit of Berlin - most didn't partake of what was on offer, but they wanted to 'experience' it. Like taking pictures of the Grand Canyon if you go to Arizona.

I and my players like to try to recreate the feel of a place and time in any historical game we play, so this material would be useful for me if I ran a CoC or any other game set in 1920s Berlin. I would want a supplement set in Stalin's Soviet Union to have information to recreate the feel of that place and time - it's the way we like to play. I've run games set in 1947 London that mentions the continuation of food rationing (actually worse than in the war), the drinking dens of Soho, the revivalist jazz clubs (it was a new boom time for British jazz), the large number of undeveloped bombsites from the Blitz, and the sense of dislocation felt by many people because of the war.

I don't think this stuff is in the supplement you find offensive is there to appeal to LGBT players - I think it's there because it's pertinent. I can't see why you have a problem understanding this. In the end, if you don't like it, you won't buy it. So why are you so worked up by this supplement? Why do you assume everyone expressing an interest in it is turned on by the decadence of Berlin and/or a dirty commie?

Are you just a troll?

For anyone interested in playing games set in 1920s Berlin, I can recommend a real of the recently published detective novel 'Metropolis' by Phillip Kerr. Kerr's novels about German detective Bernie Gunter are all very well researched - and this, his last (sadly the author died soon after completing 'Metropolis') is no exception. In this book Gunter is a new detective on the Berlin murder squad, trying to catch a serial killer. The book is not only a good read, but will be useful for mining for incidental details of Berlin life in 1929. For instance, wages are so low that virtually everyone has to supplement their main income however they can. For women it is often selling themselves after work - known as 'going on the sledge' (as they are now on a slippery slope).

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;1097323Sorry to disappoint, but coked-up trans hookers with whips or whatever do not get my juices flowing for CoC again. The point I was trying to make - perhaps poorly - was that all the stuff you find offensive in the book was actually a BIG part of 1920s Berlin - it happened. Tourists would go to the more sleazy cabarets to sample the true spirit of Berlin - most didn't partake of what was on offer, but they wanted to 'experience' it. Like taking pictures of the Grand Canyon if you go to Arizona.

I and my players like to try to recreate the feel of a place and time in any historical game we play, so this material would be useful for me if I ran a CoC or any other game set in 1920s Berlin. I would want a supplement set in Stalin's Soviet Union to have information to recreate the feel of that place and time - it's the way we like to play. I've run games set in 1947 London that mentions the continuation of food rationing (actually worse than in the war), the drinking dens of Soho, the revivalist jazz clubs (it was a new boom time for British jazz), the large number of undeveloped bombsites from the Blitz, and the sense of dislocation felt by many people because of the war.

I don't think this stuff is in the supplement you find offensive is there to appeal to LGBT players - I think it's there because it's pertinent. I can't see why you have a problem understanding this. In the end, if you don't like it, you won't buy it. So why are you so worked up by this supplement? Why do you assume everyone expressing an interest in it is turned on by the decadence of Berlin and/or a dirty commie?

Are you just a troll?

Comparing sleazy cabarets with androgyne men with the grandure of a natural wonder like the Grand Canyon makes me wonder if you are the real troll, actually. But no worries. I also do my research with the aim to capture the ambience of different settings, but describing prostitution and drag queens as something unique to Berlin wouldn't be my focus at all. The spirit of 1920s New York, the city that never sleeps, seems to be about LGBTQs and parties too according to the article below:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/in-the-early-20th-century-america-was-awash-in-incredible-queer-nightlife

Not a single word about the "Pansy Craze" in NY in the old supplement Secrets of New York though, I'm afraid. But 2005 was so long ago and people weren't fully woke and inclusive back then. This was before any angry bluehaired buttercups could give Chaosium shit on Twitter. I only found this sad little tidbit in that old supplement:

"Morgana Kingston, Cross-Dressing Fortuneteller
Morgana Kingston was born Morgan Kingston. He
lives in Brooklyn's Bush Terminal district, where he
resides as "Morgan." One else is aware of his secret, and
Morgan would be shattered it were discovered. Crossdressing
and transvestitism are not commonplace during
the twenties, but each did exist in New York City,
and the majority of society shunned both."

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097303And aren't you forgetting the bolshevik revolution and the rise of communism? For that epic-scale evil I mean? It went on in the east during the Weimar Republic. Stalin was taking care of his mass murderous shit back in 1924 already. But maybe communist mass murder is water under the bridge? Funny how bolsheviks and communists always slip under the EVIL radar.

Not at all; I personally agree that communist totalitarianism was just as evil as the racist supremacist variety.

The problem is that too many people today still somehow think the only problem with Communism is that it's never been successfully executed (pardon the bleak pun), so you can't bank on everyone at the gaming table sharing the same sense of doom about Moscow in the 1910s as they do about Berlin in the 1920s.