This will be a wall of quoted text. I skimmed through the new pdf but got stuck on some things. First this:

"LGBTQI INVESTIGATORS
For many queer folk living in the city, Berlin is far more than
a destination for sex tourism. Between the end of the Great
War and the rise of Nazism, Berlin becomes Europe's--
and the world's--most welcoming capital for lesbian, gay,
bisexual, transgender, questioning, intersex, and other queer
people, supplanting Paris' long-held status as a destination
for queer culture.
A Berlin police commissioner estimates the city's gay
male population at 100,000 in 1922; by 1930, the estimate
is revised up to 350,000. That same year, Dr. Hirschfeld
puts the city's lesbian population at 400,000, though it
should be noted his definition of "lesbian" would encompass
many women who might today identify as bisexual. All in
a city whose total population is roughly 4 million. And, as
noted elsewhere, Hirschfeld is one of the first academics
to seriously examine transgender identities and coined the
(now outdated) term "transvestite." Berlin in the 1920s
boasts around a dozen bars specifically catering to the crossdressing
community, the most famous being the Eldorado.
This is all to say, having an LGBTQI investigator in
the group is not only possible but probable. Certainly,
such investigators will encounter much less resistance
and discrimination in Berlin than they will in any other
city of the period. However, despite the city's large queer
population, there remain legal instruments of repression,
which are used from time to time when it suits those in
power to do so. Paragraph 175 of the Prussian Penal Code
forbids male-male sex acts, while Paragraph 168 forbids
"cross-dressing" in public. Police occasionally raid drag clubs
and cross-dressing bars, and arrest patrons for cross-dressing
on a public thoroughfare. Paragraph 175 is condemned by
Hirschfeld and his allies as nothing more than an instrument
for blackmail, as indeed it often is. One of the slang terms for
gay men, particularly activists attempting to legalize gay sex,
is "One-Seven-Fivers."
Notably, lesbianism is completely ignored by the law. This
blind spot around female sexuality, heterosexual and queer
alike, is common in most cultures where female sexuality is
minimized or blatantly ignored due to sexist values, and is
well-exploited by Berlin's large lesbian population.
While many people in Berlin welcome and enjoy its
progressive stance of inclusion, there are those with extreme
beliefs at both ends of the spectrum. For example, the
"Militant Homosexuals.," led by magazine editor Adolf
Brand, extols males homosexuality as the apex of the
social order; the "ideal man" to Brand's followers is young,
muscular, Aryan, and "manly" gay. Next in Brand's "order"
come heterosexual men, again ranked by appearance and
race, with blond-haired, blue-eyed Nordic types at the top.
Following these categories of straight men are women of all
types, who are barely tolerated for their ability to propagate
the species. At the very bottom are "effeminate" gay men and
cross-dressers, whom the Militant Homosexualists blame
for giving the gay community a bad name and marking
out gay men for mockery. The rejection of the feminine
and the effeminate is, in this case, a mirror of larger trends
within extreme right-wing Nationalist groups that prize
"masculinity" and "maleness" above all else. Notably, the
Sturmabteilung--Hitler's "Brown Shirts"--counts the
openly gay Ernst Röhm and Edmund Heines among its
leadership and is said to have a large percentage of gay men
among its ranks.
At the other end of the spectrum are the "Third-Sexers,"
who are championed by Hirschfeld and his disciples. This
philosophy sees "men with female souls" and "women with
male sexual dispositions" as another naturally occurring facet
of evolution. They coin the term "Third Sex" to describe
those who are "neither full man nor full woman." Despite
the misguided language of the movement, the Third-Sexers
advocate for full protection under the law of all consensual
sexual activity--an extremely radical position for the times."

"LGBTQI INVESTIGATORS
(CONTINUED)
The Militant Homosexualists and Third-Sexers approximately
align with the political philosophies of, respectively,
Nationalism and Socialism. As is the case with regular
politics, of course, the large majority of Berlin's lesbian and
gay community occupy a vast middle ground, called the
Libertarians. To this group, sexual orientation and identity
is not a matter for political organizing or lofty theorizing--
they simply want to meet like-minded people and do so
through social ties rather than at clubs or rallies. Despite
the city's massive queer population, there is in fact very little
intermingling on either a social or political basis. Rather,
different cliques tend to maintain their own social circles.
There is one exception to this: straight or gay, Homosexualist,
or otherwise, the one segment of Berlin's queer population
consistently placed on the bottom rung are cross-dressers (who
may or may not identify as transgender people). Some visitors
to the Eldorado come simply to gawp at the drag queens on
display--a highly visible yet non-threatening manifestation of
the tumultuous Berlin nightlife. Such derision is more than a
little ironic considering the fact that the beautiful androgyne--
the drag queen, the cabaret chanteuse in tux and top hat--all
are shorthand visual symbols for Berlin (even in their own
era) and continue to be so in modern times. This rejection and
repression, sometimes even from within the queer community,
causes the transgender and cross-dressing communities to
come together as a small but hardcore group dedicated to
resisting legal and social prejudice from all sides."


And then there was alot of stuff concerning prostitution:

"PROSTITUTION
Berlin has no official "red light district;" prostitutes, male
and female, number in the tens of thousands (perhaps even
exceeding 100,000). These two factors combine to ensure
that the city is nearly overrun with sex workers, no matter
where you go. They may be found on every major street
corner, in clubs, at cafés, and in hotel lobbies.
Because Prussian law prohibits verbal solicitation,
Berlin prostitutes resort to other means (dress, gestures,
key phrases) when advertising their services. And with so
many working professionals in the city, these services can
be quite specialized indeed. Here follows a short selection
of the many categories of working girls and guys in Berlin.
Numbers in parentheses give a rough idea of commonality.

Age of Consent: in Germany, the age of consent is 14,
although the involvement of a full adult (over 21 years)
with a person under 16 years of age carries the assumption
of exploitation and the adult may face prosecution. In
comparison, the age of consent in the UK and most of
Australia is 16 years old, while in the U.S. it varies between
16 and 18 (dependent on the state).

Boot-Girl: dressed in fur coats and thigh-high patent leather
boots, these are street-walking Dominas (following). The
color of their boots indicates specialty: black for cropping,
lacquered gold for physical torture, poisonous green for
psychological torture, and so on. Other colors include brown,
cobalt blue, brick red, and scarlet. (350)

Chonte: a Jewish prostitute, often Polish-born, working out
of Chonte-Harbors (brothels). (Numbers unknown)

Demi-Castor: a high-class version of the Half-Silk
(following), this is a woman from a wealthy family who
allegedly uses prostitution as a form of thrill-seeking and
to supplement her allowance. Tend to work out of exclusive,
secretive brothels. (500)

Doll-Boys: penniless teenage and pre-pubescent hustlers
(ages range from 9–14), these "street rats" often trade their
sexual favors for food, cigarettes, and a warm place to sleep.
The Linden Passage in Friedrichstadt is their preferred
congregating place. (2,000–3,000)

Domina: powerfully built woman clad in leather, specializing
in whipping and humiliation. Often working out of lesbian
clubs that allow male clientele and heterosexual couples, or
else in "Body Culture" clubs. (1,500)

Fohse: independent sex worker who advertises in the papers
as manicurists or massage therapists, as advertising for sexual
services is banned. (2,500)

Grasshopper: a streetwalker too poor to afford a room who
conducts business in secluded outdoor areas. Also called Fresh-Air Girls. (600)

Gravels: a woman with missing limbs, a hunchback, or other
serious physical abnormalities. Popular with veterans who
lost limbs of their own in the Great War. (600)

Half-Silk: an office girl, secretary, shopkeeper, or similar
"working girl" who uses prostitution to supplement her
income. Also called Five-O-Clock Girls. (40,000–55,000)

Kontroll-Girl: a licensed prostitute; grouped into one of
three classes and subject to periodic checks for venereal
disease by police physicians. Such workers signal their status
by opening conversations with, "So, sweetheart?" Also called
Bone-Shakers, Line-Girls, and Joy-Girls. (Authorities issue
8,750 Control Books in 1930)

Line-Boys: far and away Berlin's most prolific male
prostitutes. Known to travel in small packs, they cruise for
clients in hotel lobbies, at bars around the Alex, and in the
leafy promenades of the Tiergarten. Ages range from 15–19.
(20,000–25,000)"

"PROSTITUTION (CONTINUED)
Medicine: a child prostitute of age 12–16. Their pimps pose
as physicians operating "pharmacies" around Potsdamer
Platz, and clients indicate their preference by bringing in a
"prescription" indicating "length of illness" (desired age) and
"color of pill" (desired hair color). (No more than 100)

Münzi: a pregnant woman who waits under streetlights
on the Müntzstraße in the Alex. Their sessions are quite
expensive, as they cater to an upper-class clientele. (Never
more than a couple of dozen)

Nutte: a boyish, coquettishly dressed teenage girl, working
out of her family's house and disguises her prostitution
as dating. Often go on double dates with another Nutte.
(25,000–30,000)

Race Horse: a masochistic prostitute who works out of an
"Institute for Foreign Language Instruction"--in actuality, a
brothel with "classrooms" outfitted with torture and bondage
furniture. Due to the risk to the worker, clients are rigorously
screened prior to their first visit. (200)

T-Girl: the "T" is short for Tauentzienstraße, the street
where these brash, frank, fashionable streetwalkers most
often ply their trade (sometimes in mother-daughter pairs).
The press corps, regardless of political stripe, has a close
working relationship with the T-Girls, as do many Bulls of
the Criminal Police. (2,500)

Table-Lady: at Berlin's fanciest nightclubs, clients may pay
"table-money" for an evening of stimulating conversation,
scandalous gossip, delicious hors d'oeuvres, and fine
champagne in the company of a lady in the employ of the
club. The evening ends with an erotic backroom encounter.
Table-Ladies are hired and groomed to conform to one
of several ethnic stereotypes: Demonic German, Exotic
Eurasian, Gypsy-Girl, Nordic, or Spanish Aristocrat.
Their numbers decline precipitously after the 1929 global
economic crisis. (500 prior to the Crash)

Telephone-Girl: child prostitute, aged 12–17. Ordered by
telephone and conveyed to the client by limousine, they
go by the names of movie stars (Lya de Putti, Dolly Haas,
Marlene Dietrich, Lilian Harvey), whom they are made up
to resemble. Their rates are astronomical, in part because
they play the part of virgins. (3,000)

Wild-Boys: inhabiting the peripheries of the city, the Wild-
Boys are gangs of homeless male youth (ages 12–18) leading
a Peter-Pan-like existence. Will trade sexual favors for food
and lodging. (2,000–2,500)."


Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones). What's the purpose of this? That a PC can order himself a Telephone-Girl after a hard day's investigation or cruise suburban Berlin in his Mercedes-Benz Modell K looking for Wild-Boys? Strangely enough I had to google a German car model from the 1920s because stuff like that isn't found in the pdf.

Amidst all the LGBTQIWANTOUT and the whoremongering something like this is also puzzling:

"Table-Ladies are hired and groomed to conform to one
of several ethnic stereotypes: Demonic German, Exotic
Eurasian, Gypsy-Girl, Nordic, or Spanish Aristocrat.
Their numbers decline precipitously after the 1929 global
economic crisis. (500 prior to the Crash)"
 
Was "Demonic German" really an ethnic stereotype in 1920s Berlin? Demonic? I know it seems to be the case now among some, but back then?

I wonder what Lovecraft would think of this supplement? Maybe I'm getting old, but I call this quoted info needless and in bad taste. Where is my list of German made cars from the 1920s? Of 1920s German weapons? What kind of clothes did they wear in Berlin in the 1920s? I find that interesting, but apparently they don't.

It all makes me wonder why they made this book? Is it to flaunt with the sexual, perverse stuff? Prostitution existed in all major towns, but when it comes to Berlin they really dig into it, don't they?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones).

I wonder what Lovecraft would think of this supplement? Maybe I'm getting old, but I call this quoted info needless and in bad taste. Where is my list of German made cars from the 1920s? Of 1920s German weapons? What kind of clothes did they wear in Berlin in the 1920s? I find that interesting, but apparently they don't.

It all makes me wonder why they made this book? Is it to flaunt with the sexual, perverse stuff? Prostitution existed in all major towns, but when it comes to Berlin they really dig into it, don't they?

I'd call decadence of any type a quintessentially Lovecraftian theme, and details about the excesses of the sexual subculture of Berlin at the time can certainly play into creating that atmosphere. (This is also the stuff that it's a little trickier to find with public research; it may be that details of cars, weapons and clothing weren't included with the same detail because there's no difficulty or embarrassment factor in Googling that stuff, if a particular group of players cares about it.)

It's also worth noting that sexual decadence in particular neatly ties into the tremendous class conflict that is also part of the Lovecraftian zeitgeist, because it relates to all classes in a negative but different way. For the rich, it's something they can flaunt as a sign of power by getting away with it, and a promise of excitement for the jaded and bored (with a diminishing-returns curve steeper than anyone wants to admit). For the poor, it's a way out of one type of hell by delivering oneself into another kind, or a ruinous addiction that forever keeps certain slums from ever achieving proper culture and civilization. For the middle class, it's a costly vice potentially destructive not only in itself but for the devastating effects it will have on your name and public position if revealed.

Secrets, abuse, addiction, desperation, decay and parasitism are also very much in the Lovecraftian mold. "Pickman's Model" and "Medusa's Coil" are both stories about the horrific hidden costs of aesthetic or sexual obsessions.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1096950I'd call decadence of any type a quintessentially Lovecraftian theme, and details about the excesses of the sexual subculture of Berlin at the time can certainly play into creating that atmosphere. (This is also the stuff that it's a little trickier to find with public research; it may be that details of cars, weapons and clothing weren't included with the same detail because there's no difficulty or embarrassment factor in Googling that stuff, if a particular group of players cares about it.)

It's also worth noting that sexual decadence in particular neatly ties into the tremendous class conflict that is also part of the Lovecraftian zeitgeist, because it relates to all classes in a negative but different way. For the rich, it's something they can flaunt as a sign of power by getting away with it, and a promise of excitement for the jaded and bored (with a diminishing-returns curve steeper than anyone wants to admit). For the poor, it's a way out of one type of hell by delivering oneself into another kind, or a ruinous addiction that forever keeps certain slums from ever achieving proper culture and civilization. For the middle class, it's a costly vice potentially destructive not only in itself but for the devastating effects it will have on your name and public position if revealed.

Secrets, abuse, addiction, desperation, decay and parasitism are also very much in the Lovecraftian mold. "Pickman's Model" and "Medusa's Coil" are both stories about the horrific hidden costs of aesthetic or sexual obsessions.

But seriously, in what stories by Lovecraft do you find anything remotely close to the sexual decadence presented in Berlin - The Wicked City? Lovecraft wasn't that keen on discussing sex even in his private life:

"Lovecraft however was himself loathe to discuss with anyone any aspect of sex and especially his own sex life. Sonia recalled that "when the boys and HPL used to meet in his (Sam Loveman's) studio room on Clinton Street, when I was not there-whether they did it on purpose or to tease him, they would open a conversation re sex, knowing that HPL did not like to listen to such stories, Sam Loveman asked HPL whether he didn't feel ashamed or disgusted to think that his parents had to cohabit in order to have his mother conceive a child. HP made no reply but HP must have been much embarrassed. . . . Although HP was not a fighting man, and because Sam was his guest, he did not punch him. . . . Yet HPL took pride in telling me that he was born on the mattress on which we both slept. This, I believe, he told no one but me." (http://www.hplovecraft.com/study/articles/hpl-sex.aspx)

Now, I'm far from a prude, but everything has its place. It seems other supplements, the core rules, starter set, etc, is aimed at a younger audience. Back in the day (in Sweden) you could always find a little blurb on the back of a rpg box, something like "intended for ages 11 years and up" or something in that vein. The CoC product line seems to lack this. With the one exception being Berlin - The Wicked City that states "This book deals with mature themes, including drugs and sex, and is intended for mature players."

Sure it's mature alright, with passages about preteen prostitutes and "Such derision is more than a
little ironic considering the fact that the beautiful androgyne-the drag queen, the cabaret chanteuse in tux and top hat-all are shorthand visual symbols for Berlin (even in their own era) and continue to be so in modern times.". Who writes this manure? Most readers/Keepers/players are heterosexual, aren't they? Or has the world changed when I dozed off this afternoon?

When it came to the Starter Pack Chaosium posted a few videos on Youtube where they managed to mention what an awful person Lovecraft was in a two minute segment meant to promote the product. The video started with a Lovecraft quote. So they quoted him, then shat all over him in a couple of minutes while promoting a game that wouldn't exist without the racist in question. Naturally, the comment section was disabled after some critique. And I have seen other CoC products where they mention racism in the game, how to deal with it in the 1920s setting, etc. But I haven't seen any cautiously warning examples on how to deal with the degenerate setting with pregnant prostitutes and Doll boys in Berlin. It almost has some sort of condoning tone. First it starts with the LGBTQI stuff and that it would be probable that an Investigator would belong to that group then it's off to prostitution and other forms. Fuck, maybe I am a prude after all. There's just something in how it's presented, the tone of it all, that makes me wonder. I have never seen something similar in a CoC supplement before.

Prude.

If this is an attempt by Chaosium to present an LGBTQ+ friendly setting, it's an own goal.

First, this is the infamous Weimar Republic in all its self-destructive decadence. Many in the Anti-SJW crowd hold up that era and society as the example of what the SJWs are recreating.

Second, as already noted in this thread, all of that decadence is the source of the horror in the setting, not the correction or solution to it. Express/indulge in the decadence and watch your SAN drop like a rock.

QuoteLovecraft wasn't that keen on discussing sex even in his private life....

In person, no, but sexuality certainly informed his imagination about what was horrifying and why, at least in part because the eugenics theories of his day made a great deal of noise (taken, at the time, with the horrified seriousness of many environmental activists today) about the cultural and civilizational consequences of widespread miscegenation. You can't read about the evil seductress Marceline in "Medusa's Coil" without knowing exactly how dangerous unfettered sexuality can be. (Though it should also be conceded that "Medusa's Coil" was co-written with Zealia Bishop, so Lovecraft may not have been the primary contributor on those elements.)

Was this ever presented in explicit detail? No, partly because Lovecraft was himself a prude, but also because he was writing in an era where there were limits on how that could be expressed and because he was writing in a style and mode which valued implication over explicit depiction. Our own age is much less limited and, as a direct result, much more jaded -- but we're also chronic victims of chronological snobbery, such that the shock of reading about Weimar-era Berlin isn't the strangeness of what they did but the familiarity of it, the fact that another age not only already beat us to the worst excesses of human nature but was even more unrepentant and unashamed of it.

I think the detail of Berlin's sexual subculture is less about what the players are expected to get seriously involved with "personally" through their PCs and much more simply about creating the atmosphere of the setting: a city where the frenzied energy is not one of hope and optimism but dread and disorientation, where you can be struck by the idea that over fifty thousand young women are turning tricks part-time to supplement their income. And even then, it's only one part, and it's there because at least one player in most groups is likely to at least ask. Bear in mind that the Wicked City book is 350+ pages long; even the wall of text above is a minuscule portion of that.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946I wonder what Lovecraft would think of this supplement?

Nothing, he's been dead for 82 years.

While HPL might not have approved, Robert Howard probably would have liked it. He apparently had a big porn collection and wrote stuff bordering on it for the spicy pulps. So did E. Hoffman Price.

And let's remember, at the time, Weird Tales routinely featured a nude woman on the cover, usually being tortured sexually (or menaced). While pornography depicting sex wasn't openly available, a number of magazines of that era actually carried nude photos in them and had racy stories and ribald jokes. It was a pretty wild time, arguably wilder than modern day in many aspects.

Have you seen Cabaret?  (1972) - winner of 8 Academy Awards. This picture of Berlin isn't new!

Also, check out the excellent Eternal Lies campaign if you want an exploration of corruption by the forces of the Mythos. Again - nothing new.

Quote from: Anselyn;1097006Have you seen Cabaret?  (1972) - winner of 8 Academy Awards. This picture of Berlin isn't new!

Also, check out the excellent Eternal Lies campaign if you want an exploration of corruption by the forces of the Mythos. Again - nothing new.

No, I'm a prude and I don't watch anything with crossdressers in it, regardless of imdb rating or Academy Awards. I love horror, but not that kind of horror. I did watch Robin Williams in the Birdcage though, because I like Robin Williams. But Gravels and Line-Boys were absent from that film.

I am fully aware of how Berlin was in the 1920s. But what am I as a Keeper to do with the info of a dozen codenames for different kinds of prostitutes? I want to play a cosmic horror game, not make it a fuckfest session. I might as well find a copy of F.A.T.A.L. and have it as a GM aid when we create Crossdressing German Investigators, for the Anal Circumference table. O la la. Ich bin ein Berliner.

I know who is behind it all. It's that Lynne Hardy. I just know it. Perhaps Mike Mason too, he wear odd clothes:

https://youtu.be/KpoDdihq5Mc

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1097017I love horror, but not that kind of horror.

So that's exactly the horror you should face for it to be horror. It's not horror if you like it.

Quotehe wear odd clothes:

I think you've really jumped the shark there, old bean. We're not quite ready for the shirt police.

I'm going to be curious to see how many people who've condemned the Random Prostitute Table in the 1E DMG are going to gush over this, or vice versa ...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1097022I'm going to be curious to see how many people who've condemned the Random Prostitute Table in the 1E DMG are going to gush over this, or vice versa ...

Slovenly Trull...Cheap Trollop...mmm. Yeah, they missed out not having such a table in the Berlin supplement. Btw, there was a German CoC supplement for Berlin if my memory serves me right. I wonder if that was as raunchy as Chaosiums?

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946...

Is this what CoC is becoming? I know that Berlin was a lewd place in the 1920s, but I really didn't want to read all the details about different kinds of prostitutes (even teens and younger ones). What's the purpose of this? That a PC can order himself a Telephone-Girl after a hard day's investigation or cruise suburban Berlin in his Mercedes-Benz Modell K looking for Wild-Boys? Strangely enough I had to google a German car model from the 1920s because stuff like that isn't found in the pdf.

Interesting choice of focus...

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1096946...
"Table-Ladies are hired and groomed...
...It all makes me wonder why they made this book? Is it to flaunt with the sexual, perverse stuff? Prostitution existed in all major towns, but when it comes to Berlin they really dig into it, don't they?

It seems you have answered your own question.

I remember a book for Twilight 2000 called 'Bangkok Cesspool of the Orient'... but I've got no idea if it included details on sex shows and prostitution (which is what Bangkok was infamous for when that book was published) or whatever the 'Cesspool' moniker referred to.