Quote from: exalted on March 26, 2025, 01:21:20 PMI agree but look at how a lot of adventure modules for a lot of D&D variations are built that is pretty much how a lot of people play the game.

Complexity sometimes help people with expectations, giving a larger range of expected options to pick from.

Agree that some people play that way.  Disagree that it should be encouraged by the rules. (If they want to do it with little to no encouragement, and are having fun, go right ahead.) 

You can give players a larger range of expected options by demonstrating those options in use by NPCs, without the nasty side effect of conditioning players into button pushers. 

Now I get it. Everyone's got a different tolerance for complexity.  Mine's actually firmly in the moderate complexity camp.  My own system is moderately complex.  Some people reading it would think it too complex for the position I'm taking in this discussion.  The difference is that my complexity is deliberately chosen to provide a feature that the game uses in play. Then no more.  Even then, as I test, I'm gradually paring away even some of that complexity.  There's features that I want in the design that I can't justify the complexity for once I see the costs in play.

Even so, the emergent options between the players, the setting, the situation, etc. absolutely swamp the complexity built into the system.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hah! Complexity!

Rolemaster was a system that embraced complexity. There were charts and rules for everything imaginable. Any situation, any skill, just about anything, there was a chart that could handle it. Beyond that, if there wasn't an existing rule for whatever you wanted, there were special optional rules designed to help you to figure out a system, chart, and procedure to make that into a new, functional rule addition.

It was absolutely fantastic, and fun!

However, it was also not without its flaws. That very complexity comes with its own hidden flaws or drawbacks, as it were. As someone has said, maybe it was Steven Mitchell!--that every layer of detail is going to add a degree of complexity and time consumption. It is inevitable, and an iron task master. Every layer of detail is going to add complexity and time consumption and effort to make the game work. Character creation. Monster creation. Encounter design. Adventure development. Combat. Magic. Everything becomes more complex to work with, and more time consuming to complete and accomplish.

Nowadays, I really appreciate simplicity. I want simple, fast, and brutal. I want most things system-wise to be easy to understand and use at the table. BOOM. DONE.

I don't want multiple page flipping, references three different rules or rule subsections and multiple fucking formulas.

Fuck that.

Simple, quick, and brutal. My players all seem to enjoy this as well. Maybe it's an age thing. Most of my players are over 30, so *shrugs*. It seems like the older people get, the less patience or interest they have in time consuming processes, page flipping, and complexity in general. I have several players that absolutely loathe "Bookkeeping". Again, fuck that. I can understand the frustration, and have grown to really love the brutal, quick simplicity. I just don't need my RPG to be all complex and BS. Simple, quick, and brutal works. And it's fun. And you can play a simple, quick, and brutal game like ShadowDark while grilling steaks, drinking some tequila, and smoking some fine cigars. Complex, stupid fucking rule systems interfere with that kind of fun.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It sounds like the OP is asking about high skill cap but low skill floor games, which will almost certainly involve gameplay complexity. However, I guess it's arguable whether that necessarily involves a ton of rules complexity. As noted, it could just mean a game where player creativity and problem solving is rewarded.

Also, because the specific question posed is whether a poorly optimized build can beat a well-optimized build based on player skill... I'd imagine that it would have to be a system where build optimization is minimally rewarded.

Quote from: BadApple on March 26, 2025, 11:16:58 AM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on March 26, 2025, 08:28:17 AM

Quote from: BadApple on March 26, 2025, 04:46:37 AMThe second is complex task resolution rules, such as in depth combat rules.

wonder why you think the second is bad.

If combat is so complicated that you're either spending lots of time looking up rules or arguing about them then it bogs the game down and ruins the over all experience.  The level of complication that's too much will vary by table but Phoenix Command level combat isn't needed for a great game.

IMO a good game has multiple options every round with meaningful costs and results, and the options vary depending on the situation.  The simplest rules that achieve that are the best ones.  Neither simplistic rules that don't give opportunity for interesting decisions nor overcomplicated rules that are too much work to resolve are optimal.

Quote from: Lythel Phany on March 25, 2025, 11:34:01 AM

Quote from: FishMeisterSupreme on March 25, 2025, 12:39:12 AMbut rather, the player's ability to learn and exploit the rules

Mage the Ascension. Probably Ars Magica as well. Awakening to a lesser degree.

"I cause blood clot on an artery in his brain" was a frequently quoted Life 2 effect to insta-kill a mortal. The true capability of a Mage wasn't their character sheet but how well the player uses their knowledge of how the world works. At least Awakening gives every supernatural use their main stat as resistance, and there is no covert casting to prevent paradoxes in 2e.

The real trick, that lots of Ascension GMs just fail to do, is that the Mage doesn't just get to cause blood clots in people's brains unless their paradigm aligns with the ability to do so.

Most of the Traditions are pre-modern and wouldn't have the proper concept of a blood clot in the brain causing death... they could invoke spirits to unbalance the humours in the body, but nothing so specific as a blood clot in a specific location.

Those with a paradigm that could use a blood clot in the brain also have a requirement for devices being required to cause such a thing... a blood coagulation ray for a Sons of Ether or a nano machine injection for Iteration-X or a tailored microorganism for the Progenitors.

Basically, Mage isn't a game of "whatever you want" its a game "what can you justify with your paradigm?"

That honestly requires an even greater skill level honestly.