Ive been thumbing through my 1st Edition books recently, and without a doubt the prohibition against edged or pointy weapons is hard and fast. But I seem to recall during the lifetime of 1st edition that some book (or maybe The Dragon) mentioned allowing Clerics to use the weapon considered the signature weapon of their god, such as Clerics of Odin using spears.
Does anyone recall seeing actual references to this in 1st edition materials?
I think the Greyhawk boxed set (1983 version, at least) included some of this in the deity descriptions, along with additional granted powers (clerics of Wastri can jump like a toad, frex).
The Greyhawk Adventures hardcover may also have included such provisions, it being a bridge to 2e.
It was certainly part of specialty priests in v2 Forgotten Realms IIRC.
Deities & Demigods includes such information.
It was also in the Dragon Magazines. I can't recall which issue specifically (early 100s I think), but the article was around clerics of the Gods that appeared in Deities and Demigods. For example, clerics of Odin used spears or composite bows.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;626448Deities & Demigods includes such information.
That's what I thought, too, although I just did a quick check and couldn't find it. But I was checking for general info on changing clerical weapons and didn't check each pantheon or god.
Quote from: talysman;626450That's what I thought, too, although I just did a quick check and couldn't find it. But I was checking for general info on changing clerical weapons and didn't check each pantheon or god.
Same here. I started leafing through the various mythos sections and didnt find it there, either.
There was a Dragon magazine article that developed because of some earlier issues that had Letters to the Editor about this topic.
I flipflop on this issue. In my retrowhatever, my gods are going to be very mace / hammer / staff centric due to tradition in OD&D, but some clerics may have daggers too.
Quote from: Spinachcat;626578There was a Dragon magazine article that developed because of some earlier issues that had Letters to the Editor about this topic.
I flipflop on this issue. In my retrowhatever, my gods are going to be very mace / hammer / staff centric due to tradition in OD&D, but some clerics may have daggers too.
I think I've settled on the rule that clerics and thieves know how to use any weapon they buy during character creation, other than missiles and polearms, and attack at level 0 with any other weapon... and clerics of Law are forbidden to use edged weapons in battle. Magic weapons, other than swords, work for anyone who knows how to use the mundane version of that weapon; otherwise, they appear non-magical.
That seems like enough of a weapon restriction to me, and lets players design non-standard priests (because I allow Neutral clerics, so they can be priests of Odin or Tyr and use appropriate weapons.)
Does it serve a design purpose of some sort? Or was it simple flavor?
If it is a comparative weighing of the weapons for an appearance of balance, these weapons have near equivalent damage (2-7 or 1d8) and the same speed factor (7) as a mace: footman’s flail, battle axe, military fork, light lance, morning star and footman’s military pick.
For a comparison, these are the combat benefits given to clerics by Gygax in the World of Greyhawk.
Hextor (lawful evil lesser god): priests of Hextor are trained in assassination.
Nerull (neutral evil major god): 1-4 sickle, 5+ hook-fauchard
Olidammara (Neutral with chaotic tendency lesser god): have the thief skill Hide in Shadows
Tritheron (chaotic good lesser god): 4-7 spears, 8+ broadswords
Xan Yae (neutral lesser goddess): psionic clerics tend to follow Xan Yae, but they do not gain psionics by default
Deities and Demigods and the Dungeon Masters Guide seems to imply that shamans and witchdocters are able to use the standard weapon of the creature, which is how I have always adjudicated it.
Quote from: mcbobbo;626670Does it serve a design purpose of some sort? Or was it simple flavor?
Which person were you directing that towards?
This was a dirt common house rule back in the day. It seemed ludicrous to me that a flanged mace was allowed while a sword or spear was not.
Gary had a whole series in Dragon detailing the gods of Greyhawk (issues 67-71), where granted powers and weapons were discussed. Len Lakofka had a similar series on the gods of the Suel pantheon (issues 86-92).
Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;627122Gary had a whole series in Dragon detailing the gods of Greyhawk (issues 67-71), where granted powers and weapons were discussed. Len Lakofka had a similar series on the gods of the Suel pantheon (issues 86-92).
Those descriptions Gygax placed in Dragon back in the day really rocked the boat. ha Sometimes it almost seems like he wrote things to mess with folks. I mean he is including things like assassination as a excepted and trained practice. I enjoy those particular Greyhawk write-ups by him.
So, allowing clerics to have weapons with 1d8 or less damage to medium creatures and a speed factor of 7 or more is totally within the bounds of what even he was doing. Make it fit the setting, though. That is the criteria for adding them, at least as I see it. I don't think one should just make it an option without some type of setting reason.
Edit: Since we are talking about AD&D 1, one could say that all polearms are available to clerics, which would be very Gygaxian! One could bring over Gyagax's own full concept of them to clerics. It seems very AD&D 1 to me, and it would bring all of those odd ones he liked into the game, which would be cool to the Gygax fans in one's player group. Still, set it up as some sort of setting feature, though.
Example:
Clerics of the given order are trained in the following pole arms. Clerics are trained only in the weapon of their order. Employing a weapon other than the order's customary weapon may incur a crisis of faith for the character.
Beory: Guisarme
Boccob: Bill-guisarme
Celestian: Bill-hook
Cyndor: Fauchard-fork
Ehlonna: Glaive-fork
Erythnul: Fauchard-guisarme
Farlanghn: Pole Axe
Heironeous: Bec de Corbin
Hextor: Bardiche
Incabulos: Voulge-guisarme
Nerull: Fauchard
Olidammara: Partisan
Pelor: Spetum
Photus: Lochaber Axe
Procan: Glaive-guisarme
Ralishaz: Military Fork
Rao: Ranseur
St. Cuthbert: Lucern Hammer
Tharizdun: Voulge
Trithereon: Spear
Ulaa: Halberd
Xan Yae: Glaive
Zilchus: Ox Tongue Spear
Quote from: mcbobbo;626670Does it serve a design purpose of some sort? Or was it simple flavor?
I believe it was both.
1) Game design goal to limit cleric weapon options compared to fighters.
2) The default cleric is kind of 'christian' and shedding blood was bad.
Another ridiculous D&Dism enscribed by St Gygax, whose disciples even now search the scriptures to find means to circumvent them.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;627295Another ridiculous D&Dism enscribed by St Gygax, whose disciples even now search the scriptures to find means to circumvent them.
Hardly in my case, though. I provide those ideas for those that want to run it close to the book. After all, like my signature says...
Edit: You know, I get the tired of the Gygax as law bit that occurs, but you are barking up the wrong tree on this one. Gygax was a lot less restrictive than others on this one in those days. Those features given to Greyhawk clerics caused all sorts of storms in tea pots.
I wrote a short post on my blog (http://d20art.com/cleric-weapon-prohibitions-makes-sense/) about it.
I think the prohibition makes a kind of sense, and its not just applicable to Christianity. In many faiths, blood is the source of many taboos. You shed blood during sacrifices, and its rare or forbidden that you actually drink it (arguments of Eucharist aside).
Quote from: Lynn;627311I wrote a short post on my blog (http://d20art.com/cleric-weapon-prohibitions-makes-sense/) about it.
I think the prohibition makes a kind of sense, and its not just applicable to Christianity. In many faiths, blood is the source of many taboos. You shed blood during sacrifices, and its rare or forbidden that you actually drink it (arguments of Eucharist aside).
I see you are planing a campaign based upon the implied setting in the AD&D 1 books. Did the Greyhawk things help?
I once wondered what the gods might be if one used only the Dungeon Masters Guide as the source of an implied setting. This is the list I came up with from that little project.
Al’Akbar
Arnd
Bucknard
Cuthbert
Daern
Dahlver-Nar
Ehlissa
Gaxx
Heward
Johydee
Kas
Keoghtom
Kuroth
Leuk-O
Lum
Orcus
Quaal
The Ebon Flame
The Giants
The Titans
Tuerny
Vecna
Ye’Cind
Zagy
I think the main thing with cleric weapons is that they should be a pretty narrow set, like the customary ones I allocated to the Greyhawk gods as an example, which amounts to clerics having only the polearm in different forms as a weapon. One doesn't want to steal too many things from the fighter class. It is a class based game after all. The default list could be used to set the weapons customary to a small pantheon too. Just different ways to look at the restriction that supports the class structure.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;627295Another ridiculous D&Dism enscribed by St Gygax, whose disciples even now search the scriptures to find means to circumvent them.
Eeeeeeexcept the articles I just posted where Gygax alters it to suit his campaign, as he has urged us all to do.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;627350You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
Isn't that the truth. It was a good call to mentioning those Dragon Articles.
Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;627349Eeeeeeexcept the articles I just posted where Gygax alters it to suit his campaign, as he has urged us all to do.
Praise St Gygax for his liberating late epistles!
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;627430Praise St Gygax for his liberating late epistles!
So you support clerics only having the by the book AD&D 1 weapons choices? Or do you dislike classes altogether? These comments just come off as foolish. There are many other games for your outlet. I encourage you to focus on them. Perhaps Traveller, if you would like an old game.
Quote from: Kuroth;627321I see you are planing a campaign based upon the implied setting in the AD&D 1 books. Did the Greyhawk things help?
Im going to check the Greyhawk stuff (I do have a lot of old Dragon issues, but also the very handy First 250 Issues of Dragon CD product), but I want to make something which isn't Grayhawk at all - something original but within the spirit of the game, the cosmology of the planes, implied "power" of alignment, etc.
The polearms suggestion is interesting too because it makes sense that weapons are commonly used for defending the temple - though those could be used primarily by some of the instant followers one gets upon building a temple. Kind of like how samurai class women would learn how to use the naginata to defend the home.