So, I'm ending my Pathfinder game on Thursday night. It was a pretty successful game. We played it for about 7 months or so. Some of the players just hit 9th level.

The party has been on a quest to find the legendary dragon swords. They are basically 1e dragon lances (+1 normally, but become + against dragons and deal damage equal to the wielder's current hit points).

The party has acquired one and will get from 1-3 more during the next gaming session, before the boss fight.

Basically, the most powerful dragon in the world is in Zeus' bed, and when he turns his back on her, Hera plans to hurl her off of Mount Olympus. She plans to throw her at the party.

Hera will break her wings, and the other gods will prevent her from casting spells. She will, unfortunately, still have her breath weapon and be able to fight.

Looking at the stats I wrote up for her, she could still kill the party. On the other hand, they might all win initiative and get lucky hitting first.

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Rules question for Pathfinder people: I've never written up a dragon that wasn't one of the standard ages. As a Great Worm, her size seems to make her AC go down quite a bit. I figured it out to be 28, which is low enough for the party to hit. Am I doing it right?

Quote from: Cranewings;361000Looking at the stats I wrote up for her, she could still kill the party. On the other hand, they might all win initiative and get lucky hitting first.

Roll in the open. Offer no quarter. Take no prisoners.

How has PF been working out, mechanically? Any big differences in play from 3.5?

Quote from: The Shaman;361004Roll in the open. Offer no quarter. Take no prisoners.

I always do. The only roll I think I've ever made behind my screen is the number of rounds until a dragon's breath weapon resets.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;361010How has PF been working out, mechanically? Any big differences in play from 3.5?

In a lot of ways, it is more of the same. The grappling rules are still awful (pinning and tying up enemies that have hit points left irritates me sense hit points are script immunity in d&d). Magic item creation is really awful. There isn't an experience penalty for making magic items anymore, so any gold the party gets pretty easily turns into half price custom magic items from the casters if you let them do it. It takes a wizard about 5 minutes to break the game if you let them get their hands on any gold and play it raw.

The fighter is still really weak. They gave it more power ups, but they don't amount to much. The ranger is pretty weak in combat by itself, but like normal, you have to count whatever animal it brings to the fight, plus its stealth and tracking make it one of the exciting characters to play.

The new cleric channeling rules are also awful. They can now burst heal or harm everyone within so many feet. I had to house rule it pretty heavily to make it fair. To illustrate, four 1st level evil clerics with high charisma scores could deal 4d6 / save for half to everyone within 30' I think, several times a day.

The Paladin and the Monk classes are both so improved that the entire book is almost worth the price just for them. The guy playing the monk is one of the 3 people to hit 9th and he has loved playing it the whole time.

Experience is easier. Wealth is easier. Combat maneuvers are easier. Higher level feats are better.

Wizards are a little less powerful because they nerfed some of the problem spells. A lot of other characters deal more damage, so it closed the gap. The casters are still better characters, in my opinion -- especially if you play the cleric raw... especially an evil cleric.

Overall, I really like the game.

Quote from: Cranewings;361000____________________________

Rules question for Pathfinder people: I've never written up a dragon that wasn't one of the standard ages. As a Great Worm, her size seems to make her AC go down quite a bit. I figured it out to be 28, which is low enough for the party to hit. Am I doing it right?

Red Dragon's Base Natural Armor +6
Additional Natural armor for Great Wyrm +33

Natural Armor = 39

Red Dragon's Base Dexterity 14
Penalty to Dex for Great Wyrm -8
Dexterity is 6 (-2)

Dexterity Armor = -2

Great Wyrm Size Collosal
AC penalty for Collosal -8

Size Armor = -8

This means the minimum AC for the dragon is as follows:

AC = 39 (10 base)(-2 dex)(39 natural armor)(-8 size)
Touch AC = 1 (10 base)(-2 dex)(-8 size) *1 is minimum AC

Maybe I missed something along the way, but it seems like you might be planning on using the wrong size dragon.  Your players around level 9, yeah?  If you have to cripple your Boss Dragon's flight and spells, yet still worry about the magnitude of her breath weapon...wouldn't you be better off with a fully functional smaller dragon?  

I suspect that there's a good plotty reason that Boss Dragon should be on an epic scale.  Your post made it clear that its supposed to be the world's baddest dragon.  Cool.  But have the characters slain other dragons for perspective?  If your PCs haven't been running into many dragons up to this point, rest assured that an adult seems plenty big the first time around. And from a player's perspective I'd rather slay a perfectly respectable adult than a deaf, dumb and blind great wyrm.

Obviously, if they HAVE run into a lot of other dragons then, indeed, it does seem like you'll need to tinker with the numbers.  Or give your dragon-slaying weapons some protection from the breath weapon.  Or whatever sounds like fun.

If you still go with your ginormous dragon, expect some folks to die.  Really though, anything but a TPK is salvageable, right?  It is, after all, your last session.

Let us know how it goes or whatnot.

Quote from: Cranewings;361000Basically, the most powerful dragon in the world is in Zeus' bed...

Proof positive: Zeus will screw anything.

Look out inanimate objects; once the big man is done sticking it to everything with a hole and a heartbeat, he's coming for you!

Quote from: parbreaker;361136This means the minimum AC for the dragon is as follows:

AC = 39 (10 base)(-2 dex)(39 natural armor)(-8 size)
Touch AC = 1 (10 base)(-2 dex)(-8 size) *1 is minimum AC

AH HA! I knew I was fucking it up. Thanks.

Quote from: winkingbishop;361138Maybe I missed something along the way, but it seems like you might be planning on using the wrong size dragon.  Your players around level 9, yeah?  If you have to cripple your Boss Dragon's flight and spells, yet still worry about the magnitude of her breath weapon...wouldn't you be better off with a fully functional smaller dragon?  

I suspect that there's a good plotty reason that Boss Dragon should be on an epic scale.  Your post made it clear that its supposed to be the world's baddest dragon.  Cool.  But have the characters slain other dragons for perspective?  If your PCs haven't been running into many dragons up to this point, rest assured that an adult seems plenty big the first time around. And from a player's perspective I'd rather slay a perfectly respectable adult than a deaf, dumb and blind great wyrm.

Obviously, if they HAVE run into a lot of other dragons then, indeed, it does seem like you'll need to tinker with the numbers.  Or give your dragon-slaying weapons some protection from the breath weapon.  Or whatever sounds like fun.

If you still go with your ginormous dragon, expect some folks to die.  Really though, anything but a TPK is salvageable, right?  It is, after all, your last session.

Let us know how it goes or whatnot.

I should tell you the story of this dragon. Several hundred years ago, she found giant dwarven colony. She broke the top off of the mountain and breathed into its tunnels, suffocating or burning everyone to death.

When the party was traveling north, they decided to take a short cut through the mountain. I told them that there was a 5% chance that she was home and awake. I rolled the % dice in the open, and there it was.

The party happened to have randomly met a silver dragon on their way north, a regular adult. It didn't talk to them. They just bowed to it and it flew off. In exchange for their lives, the old red asked where they saw it. She said she could smell the silver on them. They told her instantly and she walked off (she was in human form at the time).

After the party finished a several week long quest, they captured a holy relic. The dragon, realizing that the treasure was back in mortal hands, wanted it. The party ran into some of her minions. One of the players basically betrayed the secret to them. She mind controlled the wizard to throw the disks off a cliff, teleported in, took them, laughed, and flew off.

So the party has wanted revenge ever sense. The monk is actually a dwarf so he had his own reasons for hating her.

Flash forward, the party kills one of Zeus' illegitimate cloud giant children. It was easy because the path was cleared by Hera. After killing it, the Paladin of Hades (undead slayer) goes outside to pay her respect. She appears, tells the paladin that, "Malstrix is in my bed as we speak. She is so arrogant, she thinks she can become like us and live on Olympus. When Zeus' attention wavers in a few of your months, I will break her wings and throw her off of mount olympus. I want you to kill her for me." She then gave him a Dragon Sword forged by Hephaestus and tells him to be prepared.

On their way back south, they decided that sense they knew she wasn't home and they were all much higher level, they would take a chance on getting the disks from her horde. The disks have a permanent non-detection, which is why she could never find them. Her traps and genies beat the party senseless. The paladin dies, but the party recovers his sword.

Which leads to now. They decided that, while none of the rest of the party agreed to do anything for Hera, she is basically their worst enemy. They decided she may very well throw this dragon at them at some random time in the near future, and so they better get ready.

As far as other dragons, the party killed a young green dragon a long time ago that was worshiped by goblins. Just last week they took on a full adult blue dragon and almost failed.

That was a nasty fight. It was basically just going to fly around and blast them with its breath weapon until they died. It didn't know about their Dragon Sword until after the barbarian got two clean swings on it and missed. He never got close enough to use the sword again. The wizard had a feather tree token, which he managed to blink close enough to throw it in the dragons mouth. When it turned into an oak tree, it broke its jaw and knocked it down the mountain (10d6). When it hit, the party overcame their shaken status and beat the shit out of it.

The wizard player said he was saving the feather token for Malstrix, but had to try something crazy before they all died to the Blue Dragon (Lapis).

Quote from: Danger;361172Proof positive: Zeus will screw anything.

Look out inanimate objects; once the big man is done sticking it to everything with a hole and a heartbeat, he's coming for you!

Seriously, that's what my players have been saying.

My game ended, happy ending.

I won't bore you with all the gory details, however I learned something about monsters.

If they can't fly they can't win.

The creature's breath weapon was only 250' and her wings were broken. The party literally flew around with wands of Acid Arrow that anyone could use and hosed her down. The druid, in fire elemental form, flew around casting Quench on her.

Turns out those two spells ignore SR. Pretty clever.

The 'power dynamics' of D&D get seriously screwy at the higher levels.  Flight is a big one.

I don't always see eye to eye with Frank Trollman over at the gaming den, but its worth reading their rants forum from time to time to keep an eye out on things that WILL CHANGE at higher levels if your players notice them.

Ideas like using a Candle of Invocation (or Planar binding spells) to get access to wish spells before level 18 (via Greater Jinn) can wreck a game economy in the early to mid levels if the GM isn't on the ball.

You just discovered the binary break/not-break problem of flight, which is much earlier.

I kinda let the party get a huge amount of magical items over the last three games sense I knew they were fighting that dragon. Normally I'm pretty strict.

I actually don't enjoy d&d much at all past 6th level. Access to fourth level spells kinda kills it for me. Same thing with ACs over 21 or so. It was a long, fun game, but I'm not sorry its over.