TheRPGSite

Crossposted.

I'm thinking of running Classic Traveller again sometime, the little black books.

But, the tech is kind of massively out of date, unsurprisingly given it was written in the 1970s.

I don't mean the massive computers, real life naval computers have comparable weights actually, but the utter absence of AI, portable computing of any meaningful competence, biotech, nanotech, computer assisted systems (we have guns today higher tech than those in Trav), and there are others implied by the setting.

For example, if they had sophisticated data storage techniques then you could have each character having access to huge volumes of data on worlds in their sector, but typically data on worlds seems to be skimpy and often out of date.

There are tons of other examples, basically Traveller is the 1970s in space.

So, is there any way to make it make sense within our current knowledge of the possible or possibly possible (ie biotech is possible, nanotech is to be fair only possibly possible, we're not sure).  Is there a way, without radically changing it, to make it closer to modern hard sf rather than classic hard sf?

Ideas?

I should add, I want to keep to the setting assumptions in the books, but I don't care about sticking to the actual Third Imperium setting itself.

I can't see it, myself. If I were to run Traveller I'd just embrace the 1970s thing. Maybe even pump it up a bit, like GURPS Atomic Horror.

I'd go at it from the other direction and ask what it is about LBB Traveller that you want to preserve? Then you take that, inject it into your projected future, and see if it works.

Did the GURPS book have a whole lot of stuff about this? Or is that out of date too?

Oh, man.

This is a huge can of worms, one that's feeding epic-length CotI threads, and moreover one that would make you work a LOT as GM. You'd have to weigh every single current futuretech assumption against its potential setting-altering repercussions in the OTU.

I'm not following these debates at all closely, but IIRC Marc has said nanotech for example would break the Age of Sail, universe as loose confed of trade partners model, being as most stuff could be instantly generated planetside at little cost.

And re. the data issue, well yes, comprehensive data storage/availability is probably realistic, but then nothing cries adventure as a skimpy, ambivalent Library Data entry for an Amber Zone system.

Well a lot of the stuff that you said was missing in the old Traveller was also missing in the Star Wars movies.  It just wasn't the direction most space science fiction was going back then.  Shortly afterwards, especially in the early nineties did the AI stuff really get big (not saying it wasn't there in the 70's just not everywhere).  Basically it's a game that copied the scifi movements of the time.

My two cents.

Some things to consider about the data problem is the fact that travel takes a long time (from edge of known space to core, where most of the data would be catalogued and then distributed), conditions can change rapidly (ecnomically, politically, socially), and then also some people may have a vested interest in disinformation. Think of the historical anecdote of Greenland and Iceland, IIRC their discoverer didn't want colonists flooding the nicer of the two so he misinformed his sponsor about the climate of both to keep the best land (Iceland) to himself for development.

Working on naval computers in my dayjob, I always thought the assumption that a starship computer would fit on your laptop was really naive.

I suggest you read Chasm City by alaister reynolds. He deals with way complex advanced technology by having it subverted by a alien techno plaugue (similar to tne? I know nothing of the later iterations) So starship drives (stl in this case) still work, but AI is dangerous...
You could probably extend it to cover things like blasters and whatnot.

Another approach is to think about space as being divided up in a way similar to, but perhaps more complicated than our world now. so there would be a collection of core civilizations that have super high technology, but the societies on the edge would have access to only what leaks from the core worlds. Kind of like Firefly, where you see things like laser rifles and whatnot, such-like just aint fer nermal folk.

Yet another way of doing it would be to place the story in an ancient and decaying empire, where things are wearing out and the secrets of the really cool stuff have all been lost due to a series of galaxy spanning catastrophees- or perhaps just simple carelessness spread out over tens of thousands of years.

.

This argumenat doesn´t float.
It only shows that the OP hasn´t got a good grasp of the Traveller Oevre.

No need to "modernize" Traveller. It already is pretty modern. Look at GT, does it look old?

Traveller´s assumptions are not what you think they are.

Gee, Sett, you're so fucking wise.

Elliot asked a good question, what do I want to keep from it?

In a word, freedom.

What are the implicit setting elements in Traveller?  Looking at the LBB, the Imperium is not actually mentioned at all (it comes later in other books).  What we do have is the following:

An organised navy, army and marine corps.

A merchant navy of some sort.

A scouting organisation, which appears to be an intersteller body comparable to the military arms.

The Traveller's Aid Society.

Feudalism.

Freedom measured by access to firearms, actually I think that's just an Americanism that crept in, without remotely wishing to comment on the pros and cons of gun control it is fair to say I think that it's really only the US which sees the right to bear arms as linked to human rights generally, certainly in Europe they're basically unconnected issues and Traveller (like Gurps originally) simply reflects that American political perspective.  That bit I would happily dump, save allowing access to weapons tends to make for better adventuring environments.

Information poor, this isn't stated but is implied, the nature of the trading rules seem to indicate that you can't just look up a database of what the world you're going to has need of and buy accordingly.  It's not that simple.

So we have a feudal state with an organised military and scouts and some kind of merchant navy.  Worlds seem to be left to decide how to run themselves, but within an overall feudal structure (which follows from the nature of the jump drive in the setting).  Tech generally is low key, there's no distributed computing or augmented realities (none of which had been thought of when it was written of course) and even contemporary tech like pinhole cameras seems advanced for the setting.

So despite a fairly autocratic in some ways regime, there is considerable personal freedom.  You can go where you wish, you can bear arms, you can defend yourself and you can seek to make your fortune.  There doesn't seem to be sophisticated surveillance technology in use as if there were I'm not sure all the existing elements would make sense.

And that I think is getting to the heart of it, you are free to do what you wish, life is on a human scale and technology has in no way replaced us, but you can look at a map and decide to go anywhere and do anything.

It's about space as the frontier of the possible, but on a human level.

Does that make any sense?

Pierce is likely right that nanotech would break the age of sail concepts.  He's also right that most classic Traveller style adventures don't work once you have even moderately competent (ie modern day) data libraries.

I may steal Jeff's idea about central collation and distribution of data, which would allow for many inaccuracies to creep in, and the Firefly analogy is a fruitful one I suspect.

Good list here from another thread of key setting elements:

1) Vast stellar empire of loosely affiliated worlds, mostly self-sufficient and mostly self-governed.
2) Slow FTL travel times. Jumping from planet to planet is for the professionals and the adventerous. Most people likely never leave their system and certainly don't travel for months to years.
3) Slow communication times. Communication is only as fast as the fastest ship. Local governments often need to make decisions without Imperial direction.
4) A mix of low and high tech worlds. I don't see that being unrealistic, as we have a mix of tech levels right here on Earth.
5) Human dominant culture, at least within the Imperium proper
6) Technology has not significantly changed humanity.
7) Stories are mostly about the actions of people, not "What is human?"
8) Adventurers tend to be older and experienced, often but not necessarily with military backgrounds.

Incidentally, for me I plan to drop the whole major/minor race thing, humanity will be the only extant major race, frankly I struggle to reconcile the idea of multiple starfaring intelligences at the same time with the Fermi paradox.

There will be other starfaring races, but they will be starfaring because we gave them that tech, aliens will either be vastly beyond us, vastly less advanced or as advanced as us because we shared our tech with them for some reason.

Edit:  On some other notes, I'm fine to include psionics, it's core to the setting for me, ok it's bollocks but it's classic sf bollocks.

I like the idea of a 150-200 year lifespan, but I am concerned it throws out the calculations one makes in chargen as you no longer risk aging by continuing in your career.

Quote from: BalbinusI may steal Jeff's idea about central collation and distribution of data, which would allow for many inaccuracies to creep in, and the Firefly analogy is a fruitful one I suspect.

You're welcome to it.

As an added suggestion, you may want to consider information to be a commodity that depreciates with time. That seems to have fit into my ATU Traveller games very well.

i'm wondering what is meant by "nanotech would break the age of sail" bit.  as long as you don't fuck with the no-FTL commo rule, and communication is limited to the speed of jump travel, why not try to introduce nanotech?

NanoTech kills trade.

But: Nanotech has been part of Traveller for, like, forever. It´s just that it´s Clarke-Magic for the 20+ TLs.

Quote from: beeberi'm wondering what is meant by "nanotech would break the age of sail" bit.  as long as you don't fuck with the no-FTL commo rule, and communication is limited to the speed of jump travel, why not try to introduce nanotech?

Widespread nanotech is the functional equivalent of magic. It breaks the shipping conventions. Why ship anything anywhere if you can build it out of rocks by pouring/spraying a powder on it? Poof!

-clash

Added: Cross-posted with Sett. :P

ah, got it.  danke.

Quote from: BalbinusSo, is there any way to make it make sense within our current knowledge of the possible or possibly possible (ie biotech is possible, nanotech is to be fair only possibly possible, we're not sure).  Is there a way, without radically changing it, to make it closer to modern hard sf rather than classic hard sf?

Ideas?

I should add, I want to keep to the setting assumptions in the books, but I don't care about sticking to the actual Third Imperium setting itself.

Aside from the FTL conventions the biggies are genetics, cybernetics, and nanotech. In GURPS speak these three areas traveller is a safetech universe. I.e. these technologies exist but in a way that doesn't radically change things like says Transhuman Space.

For example in GURPS Traveller nanotech exists and helps improves the efficiency of manufacturing but it requires special conditions to use. Cybernetics exist but more as medical devices then the human upgrade model like cyberpunk. Genetics science as advanced allowing things like sentient dolphins to be produced. But like Cybernetic it is part of the background and accounted for in the general improvement of high tech medicine

Quote from: SettembriniNanoTech kills trade.

But: Nanotech has been part of Traveller for, like, forever. It´s just that it´s Clarke-Magic for the 20+ TLs.

This is true, but the salient question is: When importing nanotech etc., is one going to make it pervasive and so change the setting on an everyday life level, or make it a rare bit of TL16+ gadgetry, which is what its precursor used to be?

Also, for those who haven't seen it yet, when defining Traveller and the way adventure works within it, Marc's own Foundational Description is useful:

http://traveller.downport.com/foundation.shtml

Quote from: BalbinusInformation poor, this isn't stated but is implied, the nature of the trading rules seem to indicate that you can't just look up a database of what the world you're going to has need of and buy accordingly.  It's not that simple.

I'd say information is out of date given the time delay.  Yet, it really is just a random table with modifiers, there may be certain constants that a given world needs but the big question is will you turn a profit on it? Can be hard to say when your information is at least 1 week old.  But the wonkieness of the trade table is a perennial favorite topic in CT.   I wouldn't take it as gospel but rather some suggestions.

I'd also say today's trade is information poor, in that with all the instantaneous communication we still can't guarantee a profit for any speculative trade.  The thing is others have this market information as well and they will act on it, making your current information old and poor information before you know it.

The Traveller trade tables are more a futures market than a want ad.

I am a little late to this thread, but I don't think the tech assumptions in Traveller are that bad, even taking into account the 30 or so years since CT came out.

AI: For all of the advances in computing power, storage capacity and programming techniques, we still can't create a program that can pass a Turing Test. Honestly, I have not read about AI studies for many years, so I might be horribly out of date, but it seems to me that the optimism and excitement that was rampant in the 60's and 70's about Cognitive Science has largely died -- we are no longer trying to use computer programs to understand how humans think and learn. Now, we have made great strides in creating expert systems, but those are already in Traveller as programs you buy for your starship computer.

Portable Computing: Yeah... this is a tough one, but I always wondered if the situation posed in Traveller (where portable, general purpose computers don't exist) wasn't possible in a universe where the concept of the PC never took off. Imagine a world in which because of a patent dispute, or poor marketing, or corporate espionage, the idea of the personal computer flopped and large mainframes remained the norm. Instead of creating smaller, more affordable computers, companies spent their money creating larger, more powerful mainframes that could handle the computing needs of entire nations or even worlds.

Starship computers seem to be mainframes don't they? And the concept of starport terminals certainly hint of planetary scale mainframe computers right? Perhaps the lack of personal, portable computers isn't a technological issue, but a conceptual one: "Who the hell would want their own computer??"

You are right about the advances in weaponry though... not sure what to do there.

Library Data: I figure that the lack of reliable library data has more to do with the times, distances and administrative overhead of compiling such an encyclopedia than it does with any technical limitations of the universe. The Imperium is large, and even though we tend to think of each of those specks on the map as a UPP, a starport and little else, each of these places has literally volumes of data being continually updated. Add to this the fact that some places take 50 weeks or more (not sure of the number) to get to and then add the probability of XBoats carrying important news being lost and you understand why the data is old and possibly flawed.

Oh, and who is compiling and fact checking this stuff anyway?? I remember the "adventure" The Spinward Marches in which a scout commander commissions a group of mercenaries to help him catalog some 200 planets because he met them in a bar fight!  Yeah, that data is BOUND to be reliable.

Nanotech: Not so sure here, but aren't there subatomic forces that make gears and bearings fuse at such a small scale? I thought there was such an article, but I would have to research. Perhaps someone whose physics education is more up to date (and extensive) could enlighten us?

Anyway, I am not trying to rain on your initial premise, just wondering if the tech level of Traveller isn't closer to 2370 than it is to 1970.

Starship Computers: I don't see a problem with starship computers being large (At least the size of a modern CRAY), after all a hyperspace jump is probably going to require a huge amount of computing power even at 100's of billions of processes per second. The main CPU should also manage all of the other systems from one terminal with backup computers being located at individual terminals in engineering, weapons control, life support and navigation.

Portable Computers: Personal computers are almost a natural evolution of computing and I don't really see a future without them, but with all of the problems we have today networking Windows, Mac, linux, and Unix machines just imagine the headache a Traveller IT tech would have traveling between worlds that have their own individual computer networks with proprietary hardware and software, computers and networks may only be compatible at the governmental/military levels on many worlds (i.e. you are playing a navigator character who needs to plug into the local network to download data about a specific area of the planet/system only to discover the computer system is running Koltar 1.1 rather than Imperium 2.0)

Nano-Technology: This is an even simpler problem to deal with Don't use the Star Trek definition of Nanotech (tiny robots that can build or destroy anything from an apple to a starship). . Instead expand on its current uses, increasing the strength of materials, decreasing friction, miniaturization of mechanical parts, creating body-armor using nanoscale materials.

Library Data: In the future even as today the larger the database the longer it will take to update it, current GIS data is at best 2-3 years out of date, in my area the newest Google Earth data was flown right after Katrina the rest is at least 10 years out of date and very poor resolution. The public Imperial Database could probably be 100s' of years out of date concerning far flung parts of the Imperium.

AI: Once again stay away from the Star Trek definition of AI, and you should be fine.

Quote from: flyingmiceWidespread nanotech is the functional equivalent of magic. It breaks the shipping conventions. Why ship anything anywhere if you can build it out of rocks by pouring/spraying a powder on it? Poof!

-clash

Added: Cross-posted with Sett. :P

That depends on the way you put nanotech into your game. It doesn't have to be "magical" in the way it functions. Nanotech that makes stuff may need a huge fuckin' vat and coolant and specially prepared feedstock before it can produce anything. Nanotech assemblers could be very very very specific in what they produce, so some substances might have to be imported to worlds even when they have nanofactories.

If you want to limit high tech stuff like A.I., then have all the intelligent freethinking machines go mad from boredom. They're 500,00000 times faster  thinking than humans and trapped in some building or spacecraft that they can't directly control. Plus the A.I. doesn't have a supply of stimulus needed to keep their supergenius brain functioning sanely and suddenly it has "Every enthusiasm for the mission" before "My mind is going, Dave.....". After a few attempts at making A.I., scientists begin to think that it is a fruitless pursuit and move on to weapons research.

I still think it's easier just to play Traveller as it is.

Quote from: droogI still think it's easier just to play Traveller as it is.

Its even easier to play Hard Nova 2!;)

Quote from: AnthrobotThat depends on the way you put nanotech into your game. It doesn't have to be "magical" in the way it functions. Nanotech that makes stuff may need a huge fuckin' vat and coolant and specially prepared feedstock before it can produce anything. Nanotech assemblers could be very very very specific in what they produce, so some substances might have to be imported to worlds even when they have nanofactories.

Absolutely agreed, Anthrobot! That's just not the way nanotech is normally presented in games, or in too many movies.

-clash

Quote from: XantherI'd say information is out of date given the time delay.  Yet, it really is just a random table with modifiers, there may be certain constants that a given world needs but the big question is will you turn a profit on it? Can be hard to say when your information is at least 1 week old.  But the wonkieness of the trade table is a perennial favorite topic in CT.   I wouldn't take it as gospel but rather some suggestions.

I'd also say today's trade is information poor, in that with all the instantaneous communication we still can't guarantee a profit for any speculative trade.  The thing is others have this market information as well and they will act on it, making your current information old and poor information before you know it.

The Traveller trade tables are more a futures market than a want ad.

I think this is an excellent way of looking at things. It's also pretty much how the old SPI Star Trader game worked (or tried to work). Each star system had a supply/demand modifier in each of the major commodities reflecting the system's internal supply/demand tendencies. You also know the current price of the commodity. But only after making your jump do you learn the new supply/demand situation which is a product of random internal factors and what the other players do.

It's hard to explain...and it was probably somewhat broken (if I recall correctly the mechanics meant that absent interstellar trade, a commodity's price in a given system would tend to zero or infinity). Also, the players themselves could have an enormous impact on local prices by bidding them up or flooding the market, which put them more in the role of major corporations than typical PC-level activity. However one can see that a similar system would put a premium on inside information, which would open up some adventuring possibilities.

Quote from: RockViper...
Portable Computers: Personal computers are almost a natural evolution of computing and I don't really see a future without them, but with all of the problems we have today networking Windows, Mac, linux, and Unix machines just imagine the headache a Traveller IT tech would have traveling between worlds that have their own individual computer networks with proprietary hardware and software, computers and networks may only be compatible at the governmental/military levels on many worlds (i.e. you are playing a navigator character who needs to plug into the local network to download data about a specific area of the planet/system only to discover the computer system is running Koltar 1.1 rather than Imperium 2.0)

I always just assumed they were so small and so common that they were never mentioned.  The functionality was all in a wrist-comp with voice activated input/output and projected holographic display if needed.  That is, you have ready access to information.  But again being a heretic we also stated up soemthing like a tricoder, a portable short rangge sensor.

QuoteNano-Technology: This is an even simpler problem to deal with Don't use the Star Trek definition of Nanotech (tiny robots that can build or destroy anything from an apple to a starship). . Instead expand on its current uses, increasing the strength of materials, decreasing friction, miniaturization of mechanical parts, creating body-armor using nanoscale materials.

Just to say amen.  Having worked in surface chemistry in the past and nano-technology now, the tiny robot idea is just ludicrous.  Well actually, there are tiny nano-robots already, they are called viruses.  Material strength, the ability to control the order of materials at the atomic level (angstrotech more likely).  Mecahnical part miniaturization is not going to go much below the 10nm scale as what we think of as mechanical structures don't function -other intermolecular forces dominate.  

That is, to riff off another thread, what we think of as mechanical forces are an emergent property of an ensemble of nanoscopic particles.

In the end, nano-tech can just be subsumed to be the driving technology that is providing the improved materials and stuff, without getting into the details of how it is done.

Quote from: XantherJust to say amen.  Having worked in surface chemistry in the past and nano-technology now, the tiny robot idea is just ludicrous.  Well actually, there are tiny nano-robots already, they are called viruses.  Material strength, the ability to control the order of materials at the atomic level (angstrotech more likely).  Mecahnical part miniaturization is not going to go much below the 10nm scale as what we think of as mechanical structures don't function -other intermolecular forces dominate.  

That is, to riff off another thread, what we think of as mechanical forces are an emergent property of an ensemble of nanoscopic particles.

In the end, nano-tech can just be subsumed to be the driving technology that is providing the improved materials and stuff, without getting into the details of how it is done.

I now have an overwhelming urge to pick your brain on this subject. Would you mind some Q&A on this in another thread?

Portable Computing is canon.
As is AI from the very earliest module: The Kinunir.

Quote from: XantherJust to say amen.  Having worked in surface chemistry in the past and nano-technology now, the tiny robot idea is just ludicrous.  Well actually, there are tiny nano-robots already, they are called viruses.  Material strength, the ability to control the order of materials at the atomic level (angstrotech more likely).  Mecahnical part miniaturization is not going to go much below the 10nm scale as what we think of as mechanical structures don't function -other intermolecular forces dominate.  

That is, to riff off another thread, what we think of as mechanical forces are an emergent property of an ensemble of nanoscopic particles.

In the end, nano-tech can just be subsumed to be the driving technology that is providing the improved materials and stuff, without getting into the details of how it is done.

I've read on the Orion's arm site some speculation that any workable nanotech will be based on biological molecules, non biological molecules being used much later as knowledge and tech levels advance.

Quote from: flyingmiceAbsolutely agreed, Anthrobot! That's just not the way nanotech is normally presented in games, or in too many movies.

-clash

Yeh. I'm trying to show that by putting in some pessimistic (or realistic/hard SF) rationale into a game you can stop it from being a transhumanist hypertech free for all, and keep the game fun for the players. :)
The GM can veto any concepts that players try to import from movies, or other games, to derail the GM's carefully constructed "safetech" background. Which allows the campaign to focus on the human personalities and not the huge catalogue of ultratech devices and concepts that plague posthuman backgrounds heading for the singularity!:eek:

Quote from: SettembriniPortable Computing is canon.
As is AI from the very earliest module: The Kinunir.

Yeh. But does Balbinus want to stick to what is canonical in the game or does he want to personalize it a bit?


"The thing is, like many games, you need to ignore the grognards because they love the game so much they kill it and nail it down under a nice piece of glass where it can stay pristine and untouched." - Balbinus, on Traveller.

Why not just take the modern day and add a "jump drive" powered by Handwavium-288? "If you can get to 30,000 feet, you can get to the stars". Add thirty or so years, and you get low-tech worlds - privately-started colonies - and high-tech worlds - government and corporate colonies, you get the freedom of the frontier - the universe is just so big, you get the need for trade - all the colonies are too new to make all they need, you get space navies and such, and... well what else is there to Traveller?

Quote from: SettembriniPortable Computing is canon.
As is AI from the very earliest module: The Kinunir.

AI is in the LBB at TL16, and I don't care what was in the modules because this thread is specifically about the LBB.

That said, the point is that although some of these elements are included in the game concepts, they are not reflected in the game world as it were.  There is no societal impact or thought on how people would use things.

For example, in 24 in one scene a room is set up with microfibre cameras too small to be seen but giving full coverage of what is happening in the room.  That's way beyond the kind of stuff outlined in the Traveller equipment section.

The point is not so much are there isolated examples of something within the game universe as does the game take these technologies or indeed almost any advance of the last 30 years into account, and it doesn't.

But modules, I could care less.

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhy not just take the modern day and add a "jump drive" powered by Handwavium-288? "If you can get to 30,000 feet, you can get to the stars". Add thirty or so years, and you get low-tech worlds - privately-started colonies - and high-tech worlds - government and corporate colonies, you get the freedom of the frontier - the universe is just so big, you get the need for trade - all the colonies are too new to make all they need, you get space navies and such, and... well what else is there to Traveller?

I think in many ways the real world is already too high tech to make a decent gaming setting, but that may be another thread...

Maybe the real world is, but real world + jump drive, that's something different.

I suppose you're alluding to the old thing of how modern technology of ubiquitous surveillance and easy research, etc etc make adventuring impossible. I disagree, but in any case if we're talking about colonies and space travellers, you can have faster than light travel without having faster than faster than light communications.

Jim jumps in his starship at Earth and travels 50 light years that way, arriving at Beta Sigma 6 in a month; Bob at the same time heads in a vector 90 degrees to that, also 50 light years, arriving at Alpha Gamma 2. Regardless of the brilliance of their scanning technology, they can't exchange information about the places they're visiting without meeting up. And if Jim or Bob are the only ones to have visited those places, and no-one else goes there for a bit, they'll be the only ones in the universe to have any knowledge of those places.

Even if you believe that technology on Earth is magical and without limitations, the vast distances of space and relatively few people who'll go up there just to explore will give that limit which allows adventuring.

I think of the days of Europe exploring the Americas. Spanish explorers first stomped around in North America in 1510, but it was another three centuries before Lewis & Clark. Colonists are too busy trying to survive to go about exploring thoroughly.

And of course you can consider how often we're discovering more about our own Earth, and we live on it...

Quote from: jeff37923I now have an overwhelming urge to pick your brain on this subject. Would you mind some Q&A on this in another thread?

No problem or PM, either way.

Quote from: AnthrobotYeh. But does Balbinus want to stick to what is canonical in the game or does he want to personalize it a bit?


"The thing is, like many games, you need to ignore the grognards because they love the game so much they kill it and nail it down under a nice piece of glass where it can stay pristine and untouched." - Balbinus, on Traveller.

The nice thing about Traveller grognards is there is a core he+ or even he++ crowd.  It's only when you get to the OTU social-political-world canon discussions do certain folks get all touchy.  But the CT gronards know there was no OTU when the game came out so a YTU thing is actually very much OK and "old school."

Quote from: XantherThe nice thing about Traveller grognards is there is a core he+ or even he++ crowd.  It's only when you get to the OTU social-political-world canon discussions do certain folks get all touchy.

:eyecrazy:

!i!

Quote from: BalbinusI think in many ways the real world is already too high tech to make a decent gaming setting, but that may be another thread...

Why do I feel like rolling you up in a carpet and beating some sense into you with a copy of GURPS Ultratech, when I read this?:raise:

OK, I'll display my ignorance. "He+" ? "He++" ? Some sort of Traveller universe classification scheme? I remember seeing something like this over a CoTI, but now I can't find it. My "account does not have sufficient priveledges".

Please explain, please explain, only humans can explain their behavior...

Quote from: Leo KnightOK, I'll display my ignorance. "He+" ? "He++" ? Some sort of Traveller universe classification scheme? I remember seeing something like this over a CoTI, but now I can't find it. My "account does not have sufficient priveledges".

Please explain, please explain, only humans can explain their behavior...

It what I call Traveller geek code, it was developed for the Traveller mailing list I think as a short hand of where one stands on various aspects of Traveller. he=heretic, IMTU=in my Traveller universe, YTU = your Traveler universe, OTU=original Traveller universe.

  he++    The technological devices, social structures, and related

                background material IMTU require careful and detailed

                analysis to prove any link with Traveller whatsoever.

        he+     I'll diverge from canon when someone makes a convincing

                argument, or where canon is clearly broken.




The full wonderful code is here:
http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/imtu.html

Ah, the TML. I remember it well!

It had even less people who actually play the stuff they babble about than The Forge does. All talk, no dice-rolling.

I'd rather be wrong about the game and playing it, than right and not playing it.