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Hi all,

With Classic Traveller, a party was very much randomly rolled.  You could have an unskilled army grunt, a retired Naval Commander with a sound pension and a 100k in the bank and a guy with a spaceship.

The issue I'm currently thinking about is the middle guy, why exactly would someone with a 100k in the bank and a good pension adventure?  What's the motivation?

Also, how did (or do) people here cope when the party comes up with a way random mix of skills?  Do you houserule chargen at all?  Last time I ran Traveller I created some pregens and one guy had Vacc Suit 4 and nothing else, I have trouble imagining what possible use that could be or why anyone would ever hire them.

So, how did you deal with all this stuff when running classic Traveller?

Erm I just played a later edition of Traveller? I like the career path idea, but as you've pointed out it can be way to random, the later editions kept the career path but gave players more control, and more flexibility in choice of skills. Not much help with Classic Traveller, I'm just curious as to why you are going with that version?

Quote from: BagpussErm I just played a later edition of Traveller? I like the career path idea, but as you've pointed out it can be way to random, the later editions kept the career path but gave players more control, and more flexibility in choice of skills. Not much help with Classic Traveller, I'm just curious as to why you are going with that version?

Megatraveller has pages of errata, Gurps I just don't like much as a system, T20 is way too complex for me.

So best of a bad bunch really I guess.

Ah I'm running TNE myself. I'm not that familair with Classic Traveller, how hard would it to be to steal the character generation from a later edition and bolt it on to the Classic Traveller rules?

We used to do it the same way we did D&D - each player rolls up a few characters and then picks one.  You get random results but avoid the unplayable characters and are able to put together a group with some cohesiveness.  

Maybe tedious to some but I've always liked rolling up characters.

Yeah, my group got together and rolled up characters until someone got a character they actually wanted to play.  They coordinated to put together a free trader and a complete crew.

Quote from: jrientsYeah, my group got together and rolled up characters until someone got a character they actually wanted to play.  They coordinated to put together a free trader and a complete crew.

We did Best of 3, meaning you could roll up to 3 PCs and could go with the one you liked best.

Quote from: BalbinusMegatraveller has pages of errata, Gurps I just don't like much as a system, T20 is way too complex for me.

So best of a bad bunch really I guess.

Yeesh. Okay.

I don't think any of those are a bad bunch, and I'd play either before I play CT.

MegaTraveller errata is mostly things like shipbuilding tables. Unless you plan on spending time doing that, go with MT.

I would agree T20 is complex, but it exactly addresses the conundrum of vastly different characters. The XP scale tends to make the power spread of characters less telling.


Anyways, its IME if you have 100k and a spaceship, that 100k isn't going to last too long unless you are a scout.

And if you are a scout, it's probably pretty much in your nature to adventure.


Anyways, we usually allowed players to generate several characters and picked one they liked. Usually resulted in a well rounded party.

I think it makes perfect sense.  After a glittering career in the navy, you settle down with a good pension and some money in the bank but before long you start to get wrestless until you find yourself engaging in more and more outlandish acts of sexual depravity in the vain hope of feeling as alive as you did when you were out in the field.

So rather than waste your life in the fleshpots of your home planet, you sign up to crew on a free trader.  You might make money, you might not but one thing that will be true is that you'll feel alive.

I imagine it's a bit like the call of the sea.  No matter how well-off a retired mariner is, he'll miss some part or parcel of naval life.

I could never get anyone to play Traveller.  They saw that you had to roll to see what skills you got and ran screaming in the other direction.  We'd had enough of that nonsense from Villians and Vigilantes.

Do they have that problem with randomly assigned pre-gen characters?

Quote from: MaddmanI could never get anyone to play Traveller.  They saw that you had to roll to see what skills you got and ran screaming in the other direction.  We'd had enough of that nonsense from Villians and Vigilantes.

Well, running through the career chargen is kinda like playing with yourself.

The modified creation of megatraveller actually seemed semi-realistic to me.  You had bunches of "I wanted career X but wound up in career Y so my skills reflect that"  or "I'm a cool marine but spent 8 years behind a desk."  but that kind of reality doesn't mesh with what many people want from roleplaying.

Quote from: BagpussDo they have that problem with randomly assigned pre-gen characters?

Yes.

We were all very much a 'play the guy *I* want to play' kind of group.  Rolling to see what you got was just about assuring you'd get a character you weren't too interested in playing.  Even the old school D&D roll in order was anathema.  So if you rolled 7 strength and 16 int you were supposed to play a wizard.  What if I want to play a fighter?

This was way back when though, we were all teenagers and very focused on the wish fulfilment aspect of gaming.

Quote from: BalbinusThe issue I'm currently thinking about is the middle guy, why exactly would someone with a 100k in the bank and a good pension adventure?  What's the motivation?

Why did I move to Uruguay?


My point being, rather than discarding the character, that's precisely the question you need to find a different answer to, and that different answer will make your character all the more interesting.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWhy did I move to Uruguay?


My point being, rather than discarding the character, that's precisely the question you need to find a different answer to, and that different answer will make your character all the more interesting.

RPGPundit

That's pretty much how I look at CT character generation.  Often, I find that I can construct a little narrative from the skill rolls a character gets each turn, much in the manner of the Captain Jameson example in the rulebook.  Not that that necessarily makes for a useful character; occasionally you get the retired Army general with Rifle-1, SMG-1 and Forward Observer-5.  But the process is fast (and fun!) enough to roll up another guy that might work better.

For my game (starting date's been pushed back again due to everyone's schedule), I had my players roll up about 6 surviving PCs and pick their two favorites: a main guy and a backup.  The rest of the characters will be recycled as NPCs.

Quote from: BalbinusThe issue I'm currently thinking about is the middle guy, why exactly would someone with a 100k in the bank and a good pension adventure?  What's the motivation?

Generally speaking, that's exactly the sort of person who doesn't go out adventuring, and their (typical) absence in Traveller made prefect sense in that regard.  Now, in my campaigns, I had at least two Bureaucrat characters (a high school prinicipal and one lawyer) and a couple of Doctors.  With the exception of the lawyer, generally none of them used their skills in the course of adventuring -- they just went along for the ride and interacted socially.

In this situation, I think of the movie Something Wild or The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where an average, everyday person gets sucked into adventure and intrigue against his better judgement or wishes.  Then part of the adventure is adapting to the situation as a test of character.

!i!

QuoteThat's pretty much how I look at CT character generation. Often, I find that I can construct a little narrative from the skill rolls a character gets each turn, much in the manner of the Captain Jameson example in the rulebook. Not that that necessarily makes for a useful character; occasionally you get the retired Army general with Rifle-1, SMG-1 and Forward Observer-5. But the process is fast (and fun!) enough to roll up another guy that might work better.

That`s the way to do it. BTW, a -5 is a fucking awesome thing to have! Think about all the Ortillery he can direct at the enemy! Also keep in mind, that even a -1 present hell of a lot of professionalism in the given field. Surely, he was "General of the Ortillery School" and Veteran of many a planetary invasion...

Real men play what they roll up, instead of front-loading their egoes with power fantasy. In Trav, you earn your stuff.
And, rolling up different characters is  part of the game, as per RAW.

Quote from: SettembriniThat`s the way to do it. BTW, a -5 is a fucking awesome thing to have! Think about all the Ortillery he can direct at the enemy! Also keep in mind, that even a -1 present hell of a lot of professionalism in the given field. Surely, he was "General of the Ortillery School" and Veteran of many a planetary invasion...

Real men play what they roll up, instead of front-loading their egoes with power fantasy. In Trav, you earn your stuff.
And, rolling up different characters is  part of the game, as per RAW.

Oh, absolutely, the guy would be a whiz at calling in the ortillery on the heads of pesky Zhos!  And he'd probably be a hoot to play, anyway.  My "usefulness" comment was meant sort of in the context of the "default" merchant campaign.  If you were running mercs, that general would be a treasure.

And, yeah, the 2d6 system makes every bonus or malus a big deal, which is why you need to spend 4 years getting a skill level.  One of my players is, like me, a Squad Leader nut; when he expressed frustration at his first PC only having one of his skills at level 3, I said, "Think about it, he's like a 10-3 leader when it comes to piloting/gunnery/computers/whatever!"  He got the concept real quick.

My players were all skeptical at making BtB characters, but every one of them came back and told me how much fun they'd had doing it.  They even rolled up 2 or three new batches apiece in their spare time!

My traveller thoughts:

I've only gotten into gurps traveller as I can't stand "random" characters and like to build my own. I do use other traveller material for source matter, and in fact just bought some traveller stuff from Imperium games.

As to explaining traveller's low tech levels, I point out that as far as game balance goes keeping the tech somewhat limited allows more roleplaying as characters matter and are not simply units designed to let the players use their latesat gadgests and weapons.

I mean, come on guys, look at Rifts for what uncontrolled and escalating tech can do to a game....

As to explaining it in game terms, well maybe nanotech is limited in traveller because there was a 'grey goop" scenario in the past ythat wiped out a planet and they realized nano was too damn dangerous to play with.

Limited AI? How about a Skynet scenario where AI tried to wipe out humanity, or I should say humaniti? After that AI R&D was severely curtailed.

Traveller allows players to roam the stars and explore strange new worlds, boldly going where no man has gone before, but without the risk of the characters becoming irrelevant compared to the tech.

On a final note, maybe automation was limited as too many people without jobs is a bad thing for society, and they finally realized it.....

Quote from: RPGPunditMy point being, rather than discarding the character, that's precisely the question you need to find a different answer to, and that different answer will make your character all the more interesting.

Absolutely!

Still, I like the "best of 3" idea. Then at least no-one has to play the Vacc Suit-4 guy... :eek:

Quote from: BalbinusThe issue I'm currently thinking about is the middle guy, why exactly would someone with a 100k in the bank and a good pension adventure?  What's the motivation?

Try asking Richard Branson.

Perhaps the guy is just a thrill seeker, they probably have a type one personality, and are constantly looking for new challenges. Making money isn't a challenge anymore so they are just in it for the thrill and to see how far they can push themselves.

Quote from: Dominus NoxLimited AI? How about a Skynet scenario where AI tried to wipe out humanity, or I should say humaniti? After that AI R&D was severely curtailed.

It was an AI that destroyed the Third Imperium if you follow GDW cannon Traveller. They are very common in the New Era setting.

Quote from: JimBobOzAbsolutely!

Still, I like the "best of 3" idea. Then at least no-one has to play the Vacc Suit-4 guy... :eek:

Hey, now, that could be a great adventure hook!

"Gentlemen, we have a situation in the Spinward Marches!  It seems a small mining colony desperately needs the greatest vacuum suit expert we have...."

OK, so maybe that doesn't quite work...

Hey when your ship suddenly starts venting air and the GM calls for a Vac-Suit test to get into your pressure suit before you die, who is going to be laughing then. When it comes time to buddy-up to check each others suit seals before the space walk, who's going to be Mr. Popular?

Quote from: BagpussHey when your ship suddenly starts venting air and the GM calls for a Vac-Suit test to get into your pressure suit before you die, who is going to be laughing then. When it comes time to buddy-up to check each others suit seals before the space walk, who's going to be Mr. Popular?

And for that ten minutes of play while you make a few rolls your character will matter.

The rest of the campaign, not so much.

It might work as part of an Ars Magica-style character pool.

 - I'm taking the retired naval commander
 - I'm taking the commando!
 - I'm taking the suit tech!

Quote from: BalbinusAnd for that ten minutes of play while you make a few rolls your character will matter.

The rest of the campaign, not so much.

Perhaps at Vac Suit-4, one gains the insight and skill needed to wield one as a deadly weapon.

Quote from: BalbinusAnd for that ten minutes of play while you make a few rolls your character will matter.

The rest of the campaign, not so much.

Well, he's not totally useless.  PCs are assumed have skill-0 (no bonus or penalty for skill use) for all weapons, and as a GM, I'd be inclined to give such a PC a few other skills at 0, too.  S/he still won't be an outstanding addition to the party save for those 10 minutes, but hey, it's something.

Ian Absentia's post a bit further up is also excellent food for though when dealing with such characters.

Quote from: BalbinusAnd for that ten minutes of play while you make a few rolls your character will matter.

The rest of the campaign, not so much.

I disagree.  I've owned games where my character was substandard compared to the rest.  Hell, from time to time I've intentionally gimped legit builds because I didn't need the raw power to make my character awesome.

Quote from: BalbinusAnd for that ten minutes of play while you make a few rolls your character will matter.

The rest of the campaign, not so much.

As I was suggesting in my previous post, Vacc Suit-4 is his skill set, but what is his personality like?  When I'm crawling around under semi-abandoned buildings with my workmates or hanging around the office, it's their personalities that I tend to notice more than their technical abilities.  Our skill sets are merely what got us in the door together.

!i!

Didn't the Medic in the Travellers comic have Knife Combat-3, Forgery-2 and no actual medical skills?

@Hastur: Thats wrong. You only qualify as a medic if you roll at least -1 medicine. Elsewise you are not a medic.

You are what you roll. Must be hard concept to grasp for some point-buy-superheroe-lovers...

Quote from: BagpussIt was an AI that destroyed the Third Imperium if you follow GDW cannon Traveller. They are very common in the New Era setting.

I think the AI called "Virus" was sort of an accident, not a deliberate creation. Also it wouldn't explain the millennia lack of AI R&D before it came along.

Dominus, get out your book eight, read up on Shudusham Concords, and start taking back your false assumptions.
Trav has AI.

Doesn't Vacc-St default for using combat armour?

Quote from: SettembriniDominus, get out your book eight, read up on Shudusham Concords, and start taking back your false assumptions.
Trav has AI.

Although I think true AI is a TL 16 development, IIRC the Shudusham Concords are more about banning robots with AI but which are not truly sentient.

That said, Traveller originally was intended as a generic SF rpg, the whole sticking to canon thing is actually IMO fairly alien to the spirit of the original little black books.

QuoteThat said, Traveller originally was intended as a generic SF rpg, the whole sticking to canon thing is actually IMO fairly alien to the spirit of the original little black books.

Yes and it regularly creeps out Loren K. Wiseman, but Marc W. Miller seems to gleefully answer "canonical" questions...

Quote from: SettembriniYes and it regularly creeps out Loren K. Wiseman, but Marc W. Miller seems to gleefully answer "canonical" questions...

Point taken, that said for me Marc W Miller's ability to determine canon ended when I bought the books.  From that point on, the game is mine.

I've never understood the appeal of canon in gaming (apart from the Hodgekiss repeating canon from Space: 1889).  You buy a book, you use what you want how you want... what extra utility is wrung from the idea that you ran the game in the way the original authors intended?

Quotewhat extra utility is wrung from the idea that you ran the game in the way the original authors intended?

In Traveller, it`s totally different than in most games:

The Gearheads try to make sophisticated systems for all kinds of stuff,like Stock Markets or rules for Deep Meson gun Emplacements, or a complete ruindown for the 3I Military. In order to do that, they have to extrapolate from published sources == canon.
To be able to present a neat subsystem to their fellow gearheads, all have to agree on a baseline of assumption == canon. Elsewise the validity of the subsystem cannot be judged.
Thus it is of utmost import to negotiate what exactly is canon.

Bah.  There are planet generation and blank subsector grids included with the original books for a reason.  You don't need a canon universe to do any of those things.

The rules already strongly imply a society similiar to 3I; that's all you need for your extrapolation with regard to social matters.  For gearhead-type stuff, the rules and actual physics are referred to more often on the TML than some fluff text about the 3I.  Believe me it's true, as I came up with a lot that I thought was original for my game before even glancing at canon material, and it ended up pretty much matching what GDW did for their setting.  I was able to extrapolate many details on my own, no canon fluff needed.

Sorry, I meant "For those of us who have lives, what extra utility is wrung from the idea that you ran the game in the way the original authors intended?"

Quote from: KenHRThe rules already strongly imply a society similiar to 3I; that's all you need for your extrapolation with regard to social matters.

A couple of years back, Paul Elliott (a.k.a. Mithras) proposed developing a variant "canon" based solely on the apparent premises presented in the core three LBBs (one week spent in Jump-space, cold sleep berths and the Cold Sleep Lottery, marines with Cutlass-1 skill, suppressed psionics use, etc.), and having nothing to do with the 3rd Imperium.  I wish I could find my notes on it, but it was a pretty cool setting idea that seemed to fuse a lot of concepts from Dune, WH40K, and Empire of the Petal Throne -- I especially liked the Eternal Legion, an elite unit of battlesuit-armored marines kept in cold sleep berths indefinitely.  Much as I like the springboard that the 3rd Imperium provides, I'm tempted to make a new Traveller setting wholecloth like this.

!i!

I've never used the cannon setting for Traveller. I use a half realized homebrew, kind of similar to the setting of Andre Norton's SF from the 50's.

Ian, there's been a lot of talk about those sorts of Trav games over at the Classic Traveller forum on Citizens of the Imperium (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi).  One clever chap came to the conclusion that the Scout Service and the Travllers Aid Society are the only canonical (to books 1-3) interstellar institutions.  His setting has no Imperium and only the smallest of multi-system polities mostly separated by independant systems.  I thought it was a very cool approach.

Quote from: jrientsOne clever chap came to the conclusion that the Scout Service and the Travllers Aid Society are the only canonical (to books 1-3) interstellar institutions.  His setting has no Imperium and only the smallest of multi-system polities mostly separated by independant systems.  I thought it was a very cool approach.

*shriek!* I'm in love!  Now just give marines Blade-1 instead of Cutlass-1 and I'll die a happy man.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaA couple of years back, Paul Elliott (a.k.a. Mithras) proposed developing a variant "canon" based solely on the apparent premises presented in the core three LBBs (one week spent in Jump-space, cold sleep berths and the Cold Sleep Lottery, marines with Cutlass-1 skill, suppressed psionics use, etc.), and having nothing to do with the 3rd Imperium.  I wish I could find my notes on it, but it was a pretty cool setting idea that seemed to fuse a lot of concepts from Dune, WH40K, and Empire of the Petal Throne -- I especially liked the Eternal Legion, an elite unit of battlesuit-armored marines kept in cold sleep berths indefinitely.  Much as I like the springboard that the 3rd Imperium provides, I'm tempted to make a new Traveller setting wholecloth like this.

!i!

That's been my approach to making my setting; I have an "Imperium" in my galaxy, but it's shunted off to the edge of my sector map and not detailed beyond basic UWPs at all.  The campaign is taking place in a region dotted by a few polities, most of which have 10 or fewer member worlds.

The first few adventures will be taking place within the same star system, as the PCs try to smuggle an arms cache to a group of revolutionaries on a gas giant's moon.  Many of the GG's moons are held by small independent groups, and two major polities have interests here, as well.

When I first started delving into Traveller at the beginning of the year, it seemed to be a natural thing to start designing my own sectors, starships, professions, etc., as rules for most of those things were included in the base books.  When I started getting in touch with the existing fanbase, it really floored me how many people are completely devoted to the game's setting, and don't create their own universe.  Of course, it's all personal preference; I just have a dislike for "canon" settings in any game, and I really really seriously dislike Trav's alien races (I plan on stealing the lot from 2300 AD for my game if I need them).

Quote from: KenHR...and I really really seriously dislike Trav's alien races (I plan on stealing the lot from 2300 AD for my game if I need them).

In my last Traveller campaign, I sort of used the Spinward Marches as a springboard, but I took great liberties with the aliens.  I fused the Aslan with the Kafer from 2300 AD, retaining the "Aslan" name and making them vaguely "lion-like" in appearance, but retaining the weird, instectoid nature of the Kafer.  I also interpreted the Vargr as uplifted canines who had, over the course of a few thousand years, successfully sued for independence from their original human masters and were actively engaged in continued genetic modification of their morphology and intellect.

Le sigh.  I guess what we're getting at here is nostalgia for the days when you bought a game for the rules and not the setting/metaplot.

!i!

Quote from: jrientsIan, there's been a lot of talk about those sorts of Trav games over at the Classic Traveller forum on Citizens of the Imperium (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi).  One clever chap came to the conclusion that the Scout Service and the Travllers Aid Society are the only canonical (to books 1-3) interstellar institutions.  His setting has no Imperium and only the smallest of multi-system polities mostly separated by independant systems.  I thought it was a very cool approach.

This looks very close to the setting I used waaaay back, which eventually evolved into the setting for StarCluster. I had almost completely forgotten about it, but I opened up my LBBs a year or so ago, after a 20 year interregnum, and found these design notes throughout, along with system names that were all eventually used in StarCluster, two decades later. It all came back to me in a rush. The funny thing is, while creating the system names for StarCluster I never thought of this campaign setting, but I had somehow filed virtually every name away and re-used it. Wierd!

-clash

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaLe sigh.  I guess what we're getting at here is nostalgia for the days when you bought a game for the rules and not the setting/metaplot.

!i!

Indeed.  It's a time issue for many; I know that I have taken about four months creating my little universe so far and have produced an amount of material that I would have been able to whip up in about a quarter of the time back in high school (that said, I like to think it's of a higher quality!).  But there's just something about the process of creating a campaign world that I enjoy immensely that I don't want to give up...and being able to run a game without some canon-monger telling me that, if I had only read page 23 of supplement 52, I should have known that my whole plot was invalid because the prince prefers to crack the fat side of his hard-boiled egg.

btw, I really like your interpretation of the Vargr.  I might have to find a few worlds for them to occupy now...

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalSorry, I meant "For those of us who have lives, what extra utility is wrung from the idea that you ran the game in the way the original authors intended?"

The same thing that makes D&D's pre-existing large customer base an advantage. A common ground to start from to avoid trying to sort out what rules are what when you come to a different game table.

Quote from: blakkieThe same thing that makes D&D's pre-existing large customer base an advantage. A common ground to start from to avoid trying to sort out what rules are what when you come to a different game table.

Is that the same advantage that makes McDonald's America's top-selling fast food restaurant?  Because no matter how popular it is, their food goes through me like shit through a goose.

!i!