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Thief, Priest, Fighter, Wizard.  They excite the imagination and get people playing post-haste.  Classes work.

Now what would they be for a high school game?

So, before anyone jumps too quickly to a conclusion:  Yeah, I did my time in high school, and I generally remember what folks were like.  I was not under a rock.  But it wasn't the most ... y'know ... self-aware and reflective period of my life.  I blame the hormones and also a healthy dose of my own stupidity.

The end result is that while I have lived with all the high school roles, and I certainly recognize them when they are pointed out to me ("Oh YEAH!  Poets!  Arty folks who flounce around and talk about how they can't wait to get out of high school and into the deep meaning that they know is out there for them!  I remember them!") I have this feeling that any list I dredge out of my memory is going to have hugely embarrassing gaps that, the moment they're pointed out to me, I'll say "Oh, that is funny ... how could I have forgotten ?"

Maybe I'm repressing stuff.  That wouldn't surprise me :D

But anyway, let's have some fun with this!  Seems like it'd be a hoot to have folks brainstorming on what sort of classes fill out a high school, and it'd really help me out besides.  Here's what I've roughly got so far:

   Prince(ss)
Poet
Champion
Scrapper
Slacker
Bookworm
Nurturer

Nurturer and Champion are ... not quite the right words.  Champion is my rough take on "Jock," which has all sorts of connotations that are, well, pretty damn restrictive.  I'm pretty sure Champion isn't the right word either, though ... "Competitor"?  Sheesh.

And "Nurturer" is ... grghle ... well, I've been watching a lot of Ah My Goddess, and so I want a place for the sweet girl who spends her time trying to take care of others (even when that means that bad stuff befalls her).  Dunno what quite the right word for it is.  Martha-Stewart-wannabe? :p

Quote from: TonyLBPrince(ss)
Poet
Champion
Scrapper
Slacker
Bookworm
Nurturer

Nurturer and Champion are ... not quite the right words.  Champion is my rough take on "Jock," which has all sorts of connotations that are, well, pretty damn restrictive.  I'm pretty sure Champion isn't the right word either, though ... "Competitor"?  Sheesh.

And "Nurturer" is ... grghle ... well, I've been watching a lot of Ah My Goddess, and so I want a place for the sweet girl who spends her time trying to take care of others (even when that means that bad stuff befalls her).  Dunno what quite the right word for it is.  Martha-Stewart-wannabe? :p

What is it you find too restrictive about Jock -- do you not want it limited to athletes?  I can understand that, but at the same time, the competitive aspect of it seems less important than the peer group, hence why I would go with Jock over Champion/Competitor.

I don't know as that there really is a male equivalent to the Princess for the purposes of this setting, so I'd leave out Prince.

I like Scrapper, Slacker, and Bookworm.

Nurturer, I don't know about.  I recognize your goal with it, but IME it was something that occurred in all groups/cliques, so I don't think having it be its own class works so well.

In junior high school we played an RPG called Revolt! where you killed all the teachers. There were three character classes: Jock, Normal, and Nerd. The axis was fighting vs. sneaky tricks like making a sulfuric acid gun out of loose parts in chemistry lab, but Nerds could also go berserk, at which point they would fight as well or better than jocks for short periods.

Game was lots of fun. I'm sorry for the kids growing up today, if they had a game like this they'd be expelled, interrogated by Homeland Security, and probably thrown in jail as potential Kiebold/Harris/Cho types.

I'm assuming the slacker class represents the stoners. If not I would add that class.

Let's see. I went to a large (4100 kids) midwestern (Denver), suburban high-school from a reasonably affluent district. We had jocks, cowboys, nerds, freaks, and losers. The nerds were academic. The freaks were drug-involved. The losers had the least descriptive, most derisive title because they didn't really fit anywhere else. They were the auto shop, work after school, not that interested in "the scene" kinda-kids. Of course, they would've been the most highly-skilled class. So it goes.

classes are supposed to be iconic, and by their nature are restrictive.

If you don't have Jock you have something obviously missing.

So:

Cool Kid
Jock
Slacker
Stoner
Nerd
Geek
Goth
Nice girl (used to be nurturer, and yes it's judgemental but so is high school)
Princess (there is no prince, that's what Jocks are for)
Arty kid

And that's about it, stuff like nurturer etc I simply don't recognise.  Frankly, the test for a class is if you say it to someone who doesn't rpg they should be able to work out roughly what you're talking about (and yes, the cleric does fail that test).

First:  I'm not sure these are 100% about peer group.  I think that there could easily be Slackers and Scrappers on a football team, for instance.  I really do think of it more in terms of the classic D&D adventure party ... being a Fighter didn't mean that you only hung out with other Fighters (though, certainly, there was a certain ... understanding there, even among opposite sides on a battlefield).

Not really sure.  Should it be just peer group?  Or is peer group something subtly different?  Is the tension between Who you are and Who you hang with something worth examining?

I agree that the iconic weight of "Jock" overrides my personal quibbles about the term.  "Jock" it is.

Second:  On the additional classes (thanks everyone!  Keep 'em coming!):  Geeks, yes, hell yes.  I was driving around, before I even got back here, and I realized "Oh shit, Geeks and Bookworms are completely distinct things.  Geeks are about being enthusiastic about something that has minimal objective importance:  Ron in Harry Potter is, in the context of a Quidditch match, a hopeless geek.  Bookworm is about a concentration on outside authority and structure.  The two can combine well, but don't need to."  So yeah ... Geek and Bookworm both, I think.

I do not, personally, think that "Nerd" has enough currency as a phrase distinct from "Geek" to make it a contender for ousting "Bookworm."  I've had that discussion with my friends ("Who's a Geek, who's a Nerd?") but for me it fails the iconic test.

Prince/Princess:  Japanese influence there, I'm afraid.  There very much is a distinct Prince class in Manga, with strong parallels to Princess.  If I could find a better term that encompassed them both in a less gender-freighted way that'd be thrilling.  "Cool Kid" is close, but ... really ... don't we want to believe that all our PCs are "Cool"?

I dunno about "Stoner."  I mean ... okay ... I get the peer group.  I get the archetype.  I'm just not sure I think it's either wise or interesting to single it out and offer it to people.  Maybe I'm just too puritanical or something there ... but, y'know, one could also have "Slut" as a character class, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to do that either.

Fantasy Flight's "Grimm" game had the following classes:
Bully
Dreamer
Jock
Nerd
Normal Kid
Outcast
Popular Kid

Also I'd like you to know that after reading this thread, I suddenly have the "Don't your forget about me" song stuck in my head...

From my recollection, there were the "princesses" (ie. the girls who were popular because of their looks and fashion), and then there were indeed two classes of "prince": the ones who were cool because they were Jocks, and the ones who were cool because they were Rich. Even in high school, money was an automatic buy-in to the upper classes unless there was something seriously wrong with you (as in, speech impediment, terminal shyness, fatal ugliness, social retardation, etc.; but there were no such thing as "average" Rich kids; the ones with money were all automatically in the popular crowd, EVEN if they sucked at sports, unless there was something about them that made them a Freak). Whereas you could also be a poor kid but end up in the elite because you were good at sports.

RPGPundit

No one got Teacher's Pet (the basic kiss-ass)?

And while the 90's are fading into distance history (legend becomes myth), something like "Goth" might be iconic enough to be a class (or maybe a sub-class).

I seem to recall some lines of musical identification (I went to High School in the 80's) so there would be the kids who liked Metal and the kids who liked Country (and Hip Hop, of course, and so-on).

While not exactly classes, I think clubs might be important also: The kids in Yearbook, for example. Chess club, computer club, etc. Band.

And while we're doing not-quite-classes, the kid who has a car is kind of iconic (although these days I suspect everyone does). Also people with actual jobs tended to have responsibilities and resources that might be interesting in game terms...

Kids with criminal connections (specifically pharmaceutical) might also qualify for classhood (I'm thinking "dealer" -- Freak / Stoner is clearly in the "user" category... although at 5th Level a Stoner can become a "reseller")

I agree that the wealthy and the children of the power-elite would clearly be their own class.

If you're doing urban schools "Gang Banger" would clearly qualify.

Cheers,
-E.

One question that occurs to me is how much are these categories a reflection of social roles and how much are they a function of actual skills and pursuits. The reson I ask is that I think one of the most interesting things about high school was the growing tension between those things. You see it especially as people get a little older and out of high school, and the groups start to interact with each other and maybe the jock gets interested in his major, the bookworm decides to dabble in lifting weights, etc. The stereotypes become less relevant, but the seeds were already there.

For example, I remember the stoners that I hung out with in high school. It included the abslute slackers, many a bookworm, and the arty types, and even a few atheletes that just hadn't bought into the jock mentality. I also remember in the jocks there were some that were genuinely interested in developing their skills and others that were just happy to be king for 4 years, some that studied, and others that were happy not too.

What I'm saying is that the social stereotypes intersected the personal skills in a way that was interesting. It might be interesting to preserve that somewhat by keeping the social roles and stereotypes as related by distinct subsystems of the game.

Just a thought.

Class based High School is so different from where I come from. Where is the Gangster class..would this be Ruffian ? Tough Guy ? And you don't really want to go into the whole Private High School social groups :D

Regards,
David R

This thread is spectacular case study in why classes serve poorly in modern or realistic settings.

:rolleyes:

This is beginning to sound like The Breakfast Club, the d20 Supplement. Which isn't a bad idea at all, but it would have to take into account the generation-to-generation changes in pop culture base classes. My High School of the 1980's would be both different and the same from the High School of the 2000's (having an 18-year old daughter taught me that).

For instance, how would the game handle what my daughter calls the Trenchcoat Mafia? Dissatisfied teens more than willing to shoot a few classmates or teachers on a whim.  This wasn't even a thought back in the 80's, but since Columbine it is an almost common occurrance.

EDIT: I just thought of how it could be handled. A Cyberpunk humanity-like mechanic to indicate how socially adjusted the High Schooler is.

Quote from: David RTough Guy ? And you don't really want to go into the whole Private High School social groups :D

If we're talking English private schools wouldn't there just be the two basic classes: hot crumpeter and hot crumpetee? :D

RPGPundit

Well, in D&D there's race and class.

Race describes what someone is and Class describes what they do. So the obvious paralell for HS is to have races like Jock, Nerd, Outcast, Princess, Artiste... and classes like Actor, Bandmember, Burgerflipper, Cheerleader, Honor Student, Motorhead, Stoner, Vollyball player....

That way, characters can identify each others "race" on sight, but they have to intuit "class" by looking at their gear.

Human in heavy armor and wielding Mace, heavy? Human Cleric.
Nerd wearing vest of many pockets and pointing a camera, SLR? Nerd Yearbook photographer.
Jock eating salad, no dressing? Jock Wrestler.

Classes are gonna end up being based on a couple things.

There's stuff you're into. Geeks being the quintessence of this, picking the most focussed and irrelevant things and obsessing over them. Then you've got folks less enthusiastic and into more general categories. I've known plenty of mathematicians and folks into literature and drama club members and techies whatnot. All different kinds of geek here that don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on the basis of whatever makes them geeks.

Then there's the stuff you're good at and have going for you. You might be an intellectual type, an athletic type, a sociable type, rich, etc.

Then there's how you fit in. Or if you fit in, for that matter.


Divide as you see fit. Anyway, I see people as having two classes, but maybe that's just me.

Geek:Pick something you're into. Your abilities focus on that. As a drawback you're alienated for those who don't share a similar focus.
Academic:Good grades. No life. Might also be able to focus on one subject.
Jock:Good in athletics. Inept in academics. (not true to life, IME, but true to... genre?)

And so on and so forth. Although I have to say I'm ashamed I joined this discussion, for whatever reason.

:rolleyes:

You have obviously not read Wandering Monster High (it's free -- check it out to make sure that you're not covering the same ground twice).

Quote from: J ArcaneThis thread is spectacular case study in why classes serve poorly in modern or realistic settings.

Not really. High schools were the most classified social structures I have had the misfortune to encounter. If there is a place where a modern setting cries for classes, it is a high school based game.

Quote from: MelanNot really. High schools were the most classified social structures I have had the misfortune to encounter. If there is a place where a modern setting cries for classes, it is a high school based game.

Ooh, that would make German schools past 4th grade prestige classes...

Quote from: MelanNot really. High schools were the most classified social structures I have had the misfortune to encounter. If there is a place where a modern setting cries for classes, it is a high school based game.

I disagree.  I'm reading this thread, and based on my experiences, the "classes" presented seem to have more to do with John Hughes movies than any reality I experienced, or that of my younger friends and siblings.

My high school was probably one of the more egalitarian social settings I ever experienced.  There was a lot of crossbleed between social circles, interests, attitudes.  Like anything in life you could probably force it into some bad stereotypes, but it would ring pretty false in comparison with reality.

Real people just don't fit into neat little boxes like that, which is why classes don't mix well with a realistic setting, because they require broadbrush stereotypes to be flavorfully interesting.  They work well for fantastic or cinematic settings, where one has the liberty to play in cliche without breaking ones suspension of disbelief.

I agree with J.Arcane but then again I'm from another country...that didn't come out as intended :haw:

Regards,
David R

Quote from: malleus arianorumWell, in D&D there's race and class.

Race describes what someone is and Class describes what they do. So the obvious paralell for HS is to have races like Jock, Nerd, Outcast, Princess, Artiste... and classes like Actor, Bandmember, Burgerflipper, Cheerleader, Honor Student, Motorhead, Stoner, Vollyball player....

That way, characters can identify each others "race" on sight, but they have to intuit "class" by looking at their gear.

Human in heavy armor and wielding Mace, heavy? Human Cleric.
Nerd wearing vest of many pockets and pointing a camera, SLR? Nerd Yearbook photographer.
Jock eating salad, no dressing? Jock Wrestler.

If your going with a game with classes. I think Malleus has it right. The races so to speak and class. I think mix well and show the diversity. But its really hard to get the seperate types of people completely classified. To do this you might have to be content with some broad classes. Which may leave certain people out. Maybe just add them as needed. Kind of like when you buy a new supplement. With new character classes and introduce them to an exsisting campaign.
Really I think a classless game would work better. But thats not what your looking for.:p

Quote from: BrimshackOne question that occurs to me is how much are these categories a reflection of social roles and how much are they a function of actual skills and pursuits.

Well, it's deliberately a little bit of both.  A large part of the "skills" that others look to you to have in order to fulfill one of these social roles boils down to just a willingness to fulfill the social role.  If people are looking to you to be a Scrapper, and you get angry and fight people then ... well, you're a Scrapper, even if you lose.  Perhaps, even if you always lose ... even if you aren't, objectively, a very good fighter at all.  They weren't looking for you to be a good fighter ... they were looking for you to have a willingness to start fights.

Now it's not totally unconnected to talents ... because people are likely to look at the good fighters to be Scrappers in the first place, and the good fighters are more likely to embrace that identity when people try to fit it for them.  But it's a wierd feedback loop that can tend to accentuate first impressions.  People go along with it because it creates structure very quickly, and that lets people have a sense of belonging, of having a place to fit in with their fellows.

Quote from: BrimshackThe reson I ask is that I think one of the most interesting things about high school was the growing tension between those things.

Totally!  As time goes on some people find that their social role isn't expressing everything they are.  The very identity they strove to achieve starts fitting too tightly as they become more familiar with all of their varied talents.

But hey, this is just character creation.  This is the starting point from which you set out on the journey.

...no one has suggested the obvious choice:  Vampire the Masquerade.  The clans are just high school cliques with fangs.

Quote from: Samarkand...no one has suggested the obvious choice:  Vampire the Masquerade.  The clans are just high school cliques with fangs.

Quick mapping ....

Poet -> Toreador
Scrapper -> Brujah
Geek -> Nosferatu
Bookworm -> Tremere
Princess -> Ventrue

If I were more interested in something like "Freak" then we'd have a match for Malks as well.  So yeah ... looks like a good insight there!  Good eye, Samarkand.

Nothing for Gangrel, huh?  D'ya think there oughta be a "Granola" type archetype?  Or is it too recent to have any iconic weight?

Quote from: TonyLBAnd "Nurturer" is ... grghle ... well, I've been watching a lot of Ah My Goddess, and so I want a place for the sweet girl who spends her time trying to take care of others (even when that means that bad stuff befalls her).  Dunno what quite the right word for it is.  Martha-Stewart-wannabe? :p

Gack.  I am soooooo stoooooopid.  I figured out what this one should be named.

You've got a person who wants to take on a role where they support and encourage others?  Yeah.  That'd be "Cheerleader."  Not having "Cheerleader" on my class list was a crime against man and nature anyway.  I think I got thrown by the image that a cheerleader has to be loud and flashy and out there ... but written the right way it could just as easily be a class that you can adapt to be quietly working behind the scenes to give people a boost toward achieving their dreams.

The combination of my personal experience with american high schools and my reading/viewing of (heavily fictionalized, no doubt!) japanese high schools is sorta wierd.  Do they have cheerleaders in japan?

I guess according to this thread I'd have been:

4 Jock/2 Scrapper/2 Geek

Multiclassed. :D

Quote from: McrowI guess according to this thread I'd have been:

4 Jock/2 Scrapper/2 Geek

Multiclassed. :D

Heh, I was a stoner, notwithstanding the fact that I never tried any illicit drugs of any kind. When asked my classification, I was told in no uncertain terms that I was a stoner. ...which struck me as fair enough.

Curious to see how this one turns out. Could be fun.

Have you looked at Malls & Morons at all?  It was free, and handled this sort of thing pretty well, IMO.

Quote from: BrantaiHave you looked at Malls & Morons at all?  It was free, and handled this sort of thing pretty well, IMO.

No, I hadn't!  Thanks!  Looking now.

EDIT:  Huh.  Looked over the subcultures (http://mallsandmorons.pbwiki.com/Subcultures) page (which seemed the most relevant).  Seems a bit ... light on the differentiation.  No artists, no earnest students, no clever rich-bitches.  But maybe that's the mall setting coming into play.

In case someone is SERIOUS about this and might want to know something like this already exists for D20 modern...
http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=292&products_id=6478&

Quote from: Product BlurbWelcome to Campaign Builders: Modern High, the book that will send your Modern game back to the teen years. Lately more and more popular television series have featured the recurring exploits of pesky teenagers dealing with all the usual high school problems along with aliens, supervillians and demons too. Modern High aims to help you bring this sort of adventure to your weekly Modern game.

Included this product of teen angst:

• Rules for Popularity and Allowance.
• Rules for Extracurricular Activities and Higher Education
• Rules for Entering the Work Force.
• New Teen Talents for the Base Hero classes.
• 2 Campaign Models: Horror High and Ninja High.

I wouldn't run it straight out of the box, but it would make a good substrate for a variety of games. I considered combining it with Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth for my potteresque but more American "American Arcana".

Quote from: RPGPunditIf we're talking English private schools wouldn't there just be the two basic classes: hot crumpeter and hot crumpetee? :D

RPGPundit

Are those the same as fags?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAre those the same as fags?

No, you smoke them.

Quote from: One Horse TownNo, you smoke them.

Nonono.

"He was my fag at Eton," I remember my then tutor exclaim as scholar X's name came up in conversation.

Whre do you fit High schol musicians into all of that ?

 There are different kinds of that "class" too. You got the nerdy /but not really a virgin types ( The Alyson Hannigan character from the American Pie movies)  and you also have the  Rock & Roll guitar kids who might be part of a struggling garage band. (some of the bands are actually pretty good).

 What about the Drama & Theater kids ?

- Ed C.

Maybe expand "Poet" to "Artist"?  Or is there something distinctive about Poet that should be preserved, independent of whatever different thing a garage band guitarist has going?

Should people maybe start as multiclassed? So to create the garage band guy. He would start as Artist 1 (with focus on music, obviously), Stoner 1. A band geek would start as Artist 1, Nerd 1. Just a thought.

I think there does need to be an artist class, and I think multiclassing needs to be heavily encouraged.  Most people are going to have at least two (if not three  or even four) classes.

Quote from: RezendevousI think there does need to be an artist class, and I think multiclassing needs to be heavily encouraged.  Most people are going to have at least two (if not three  or even four) classes.

Why?  Realism?  Some other benefit?

Dunno about the US, but we have a term here for a goody two-shoes who always does their work on time, does extra work and is a general suck-up. Swot.

Socialite. The guy or gal who is always the centre of attention, throws the parties etc

Gossip. The one who is always in the know and likes to spread rumours.

Cheerleader.

Joker. The class clown.

Quote from: TonyLBWhy?  Realism?  Some other benefit?

Not to speak for Rezendevous, but. I dont see everyone fitting into a single group. I look back at when I was in high school. Just at the people I hung out with. There was a preppy guy who was also a car guy. Stoner who was a car guy. Another guy that if he wasnt a stoner would have been considered a nerd. I dont think people realistically are as one dimensional as a class some times is. People had mutiple skill sets/talents. That may not be infered if they are just dropped in a single class. Sure preppy/car guy and stoner/carguy both have car guy skill sets. But one can better can better navigate the preppy rich kid realm, and has the skills/talents to deal with that. But if put in a situation needing the stoner skill set/talents would be lost.

There is an anime-high-school game out there that emulated the shoujo magical/psychic girl genre.  One slight problem is the name.

    _Panty Explosion_

    I pity the HS attending gamer who brings that to school.  Almost as bad as me reading Atwood's _The Edible Woman_ while attending a private all-boy's school.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Settembrini:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Thanatos02:rolleyes:

Quote from: Settembrini:rolleyes:

That's really cute!

I just wanted to fit in.  Everyone else was doing it.

Quote from: droogThat's really cute!

Sadly, Brantai's response was exactly what I was hoping for.

I would takea lesson from Star Wars Saga. Less is More.

Less classes that can be customized for individual identities.

Jock - Covers bullies and the athletic kids. This is basicly your fighter class.

Geek - Covers Nerds, Bookworms, people who are interested more in knowledge than anything else. This is basicly your Mage class, however use experiments instead of magic with specializations based off their favorite "subject". Isolated by choice rather than unsociability.

Socialite - Covers you're snobs, spoiled brats, socialites and fashionistas. They don't neccisarily have to be rich , and being rich isn't neccisarily a prerequisite. Pretty much a rogue class, backstabbing and al that

Outcast - All of your misfits. Goths, punks, wiccans, artists, theatre kids etc. This is your toolbox class...a la bards. Outcast do to their quirkyness and/or strange lifestyle.

Normal (needs a better name...but maybe not) - Your regular kids. Nice girls /guys, trying to get through and not have a rough time about it.



Maybe I'll build something with this idea for the Battle Royale one shot I've been thinking about!

How about:

Freshman
Sophomore
Junior
Senior

Those are the "classes" I remember - but it's been a few years :p

Quote from: TonyLBWhy?  Realism?  Some other benefit?

What Ronin said. :)

It makes sense to use classes, because the groups are very much there -- but it's also important to represent people being a member of different groups and being able (or not) to move bewteen them, hence the multiclassing.

This reminds me, I have to dig out my copy of Alma Mater...

Quote from: James J SkachHow about:

Freshman
Sophomore
Junior
Senior

Those are the "classes" I remember - but it's been a few years :p

 Wouldn't that be covered by "Levels" if you're basing this off of the D20/OGL system model ??

 If this was GURPS - I'd just add 10 to maybe 12 characters points after each year of school and some random quirks, disads, and advantages gained.

- Ed C.

I say, Koltar, nice shirt, or what?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI say, Koltar, nice shirt, or what?

 We're totally off-topic...but Thank You.

I like wearing either black or white shirts when I GM  - that was taken during a meal break at a game session.


- Ed C.