Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 24, 2022, 08:46:19 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 24, 2022, 08:13:14 PMMost people can spot the difference and stop before things get bad, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to at least be aware of the possibility, and keep an eye out for those who can't.

Oh, I agree... But is that not really more to do with psychology as opposed to a tangible spiritual menace.

There's a definite overlap, largely because there isn't always a clear dividing line between the psychological and the spiritual, and each can influence the other; psychological weaknesses can render one spiritually vulnerable and vice versa.

But this is all in the realm of rare extreme hypotheticals. Usually simply being aware of the possibility and keeping one's intentions clear is enough to forestall any danger from it, and as I'm starting to repeat myself I'll probably let the topic go here.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:17:12 PM

What I find fascinating is the need of Rob, "I", Leon_ and others to evangelize Christians in a thread that's obviously not aimed at them and I will point that discussion of Religion outside of the realm of the question is off topic.

Given the OP asked I will assume he feels insecure in ussing them, IMHO that's your Guardian Angel talking to you, you ignore the voice at your own risk.

Me?  Evangelizing?  Don't lump me in with the other two guys.  I was just commenting on the Cymwad's complete lack of contribution to the topic.  Now, I didn't contribute either... but I'm not the only one to point out that the guy wasn't on topic and wasn't contributing anything.  I'm reading the thread to learn more about the subject, and this douchebag keeps interrupting the thread with his Tourette's-like anti-Christian commentary, and it annoyed me.

But since you brought it up -- I'm a Christian and I've used Tarot cards for years.  There's nothing "occult" or supernatural about them.  Various hucksters, fraudsters and superstitious people will say otherwise, but they are actually just a tool for meditation.  They are pictorial, symbolic representations of universal metaphysical concepts (the major arcana), personality types (the court), and  all sorts of different types of situations/things/incidents that can arise in life (the minor arcana).  You lay them out in a pattern and look at them and think about their relationships to one another.  That's all they are.  No more "evil," "occult" or "supernatural" than going to an art gallery (or playing an RPG, for that matter).  There is no such thing as "fortune-telling" with Tarot cards or anything else; con men and women use them for that to entertain some people, and fool the most gullible ones.  Now, I've never played Kult so maybe they ARE conceptually different in that game, for all I know.  The Emperor's Tarot in Warhammer 40K certainly is.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 16, 2022, 07:40:12 PM
Any Christians out there?  I'm planning to run a game of Kult.  I figured this forum is as good a place as any to get fellow Christian perspectives on the game and more specifically the Kult Tarot cards.  I'm assuming if I post this on rpg.net I would be inundated with all types of twattery from atheists. We're gamers so obviously we never bought into that satanic panic nonsense.   To me Kult is not blasphemy because it's just a horror setting and for gaming the tarot cards aren't real.  However i always stay clear of actual occult stuff.  I would never use tarot for actual divination and wouldn't mess with for example a Ouija board but the Kult Tarot cards look like a cool way to play the game.  I'm curious to hear other Christian thoughts on this matter.

Depends on how cool the artwork is on the cards.

Sorry been gone a while.  The thread really went off the rails. I appreciate everyone who stayed on topic and posted their view. My main concern was if the use of tarot cards went against biblical teaching as other believers interpret it.  Supernatural dangers is really just a small side concern.  I'm not really interested in a debate on the merits of the faith or lack there of.  I will say this though.  Every hardcore atheist I've ever met got turned away from Christianity by overzealous parents.  Parents seem to be the #1 cause of atheism.  I'll leave it at that since proselytising isn't my bag. If anyone has anything else to add concerning occult tools in gaming I'd like to hear it.

Edit.  One more jab lol.  A lot of people are atheist until they are about to die. 

Quote from: myleftnut on July 27, 2022, 12:31:27 AM
I will say this though.  Every hardcore atheist I've ever met got turned away from Christianity by overzealous parents.

My parents were not overzealous... It was skepticism, corruption, and science that turned me away.

huh,  one of the reasons I find Christianity useful is that it means suicide is kinda useless.  With atheism there's nothing to fear after death, I'd find that reassuring really.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 27, 2022, 06:04:10 AM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 27, 2022, 12:31:27 AM
I will say this though.  Every hardcore atheist I've ever met got turned away from Christianity by overzealous parents.

My parents were not overzealous... It was skepticism, corruption, and science that turned me away.

I'm not really an atheist anymore, but I was turned away from Christianity by its history, its implicit prejudice and destain (and outright persecution) towards other view points or belief systems—even different sects within their own religion—and the fact that I kept running into fundamentalist Christians growing up, despite my family not being very devout and my dad not even believing in it (he has his own beliefs aligning more with Dharmic religions, but was irreverent AF and I used to think he was an atheist till I was close to my teens). At this point I'm not likely to ever go back to Christianity given that I've had spiritual experiences that contradict its teachings, though, I wouldn't be above playing a Christian character (probably something inspired by the Templars in Knightfall) if I ended up playing a more historical game, since I'm not against playing characters with beliefs different from mine.

I'm not likely to use Tarot cards in game, since I tend to prefer dice as a randomizer and I'm not much for using props (specially if I have to pay extra for game-specific stuff), though I'm not fundamentally against it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 27, 2022, 10:47:56 AM
I'm not likely to use Tarot cards in game, since I tend to prefer dice as a randomizer and I'm not much for using props (specially if I have to pay extra for game-specific stuff), though I'm not fundamentally against it.

I'm the same... I don't like gimmicks or doodads. If a game uses cards or some such I just won't play it. I'm old-fashioned that way. 

But if people want to use them have at it.

Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 24, 2022, 01:01:19 AM
You could always try using a Magic 8 Ball to GM a total sandbox.

A few random adventure gen systems are pretty much that. We even goofed around with recreating an 8-ball as just rolling on a table for one Gamma World project. Was pretty funny.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

Part of the problem with using the bible as a guide for whats wrong or not is that its been altered and edited to suit certain agendas. Not exactly the most reliable source. Which just compounds the problem.

As said. I dont care if its occult, psi, subconcious, imagination, or trickery. Though my waryness is mostly directed as ouija boards as that is the one seen in action. Heck of alot creepier too than just laying out cards.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

  The consensus of the Christian community on this thread is that Tarot cards are akin to the meat sacrificed to idols of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 8--they don't have any power of themselves, so they can be used as a game aid without concern so long as you don't lead 'weaker brethren' into believing that they might have some power, or that divination is morally acceptable.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 27, 2022, 05:21:46 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

  The consensus of the Christian community on this thread is that Tarot cards are akin to the meat sacrificed to idols of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 8--they don't have any power of themselves, so they can be used as a game aid without concern so long as you don't lead 'weaker brethren' into believing that they might have some power, or that divination is morally acceptable.

Cool. Thanks for summarizing.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

This isn't as clear cut as it may seem. While certainly there was a big development in the use of Tarot cards for divination in the 18th C, that doesn't mean it didn't have occult elements earlier. Some of the earliest creators of tarot decks (particularly the Sforza family) had a reputation for dabbling in heresy and magic. And the symbols on the cards have imagery that could be considered both spiritual and occult.
At the very least they undoubtedly contained moral and allegorical concepts and symbols, which was the bread and butter of renaissance magic. It's not so clear if divination was an early use or not, but it seems likely they were used in part as "flash cards" for magic.

Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2022, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

Part of the problem with using the bible as a guide for whats wrong or not is that its been altered and edited to suit certain agendas. Not exactly the most reliable source. Which just compounds the problem.

As said. I dont care if its occult, psi, subconcious, imagination, or trickery. Though my waryness is mostly directed as ouija boards as that is the one seen in action. Heck of alot creepier too than just laying out cards.

Not really. Copies of the Bibles that they found over the centuries didn't vary that much and the Gospel message wasn't changed at all. One New Testament book allegedly has an extra ending, but it doesn't contradict anything. Some seminaries still teach their pastoral candidates Ancient Hebrew and New Testament Greek. If you want to try something that's more literal to the original text try the New American Standard Bible.