Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:31:47 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:28:08 PM
But there is such a thing as excessive fantasy getting out of control in risky ways.

I'd agree there but it's exceedingly rare. Of course, you can apply that to most media.

Including the bible and the Quran, if history is any indication. And that one is probably more reliable than unverifiable anecdotal reports from people who are already predisposed towards casting the occult and spiritual beliefs from other religions and spiritual traditions in an unfavorable light.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 21, 2022, 03:05:07 PM
Including the bible and the Quran, if history is any indication.

I'd suggest that's veering a little too far away from the original question of the thread.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:23:40 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 02:05:05 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:01:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:07 AM
Are you guys seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??

Not in the elf game, no. It's whatever propensity they may have to inspire people into using the real thing outside the game that is being discussed.

That propensity is low and the risk of encountering spiritual danger is low even if someone did, but yes, the Christian faith does teach that that risk is not zero, and that divination via occult means is illicit for both that reason and for the sin of Pride that it represents.

This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

Good point...

Although, I would suspect that a fundamentalist Christian's answer would be something like, 'but dark powers are involved and therefore much more able to tempt the user into going down the route of evil'.

Of course, I don't believe in any of that mumbo jumbo. Tarot cards, astrology, and divination, etc. are pure nonsense as far as I'm concerned. But whatever floats 'yer boat.

It's deeply ironic that those silly little religious comics that prick did back in the 80s telling us rpgers that we were all going down Satan's path to ruin. LOL How the goalposts have changed.

What's even more amusing is to see which idiots are kicking for those goalposts today after years of laughing at the fools that did it the last time.

The reason I started the thread was to get opinions from other Christians on whether mimicking occult practices is dangerous or contrary to scripture or contrary to their doctrine.  I was hesitant of even playing with occult tools.  I'm not the type with the arrogance to think my doctrine is superior to all others so I put the question out there.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 03:01:11 PM
If you don't believe there's any such supernatural reality, then the answer is obviously no, there's no such risk. My own thinking on that, outside my basic faith, is a variant of Pascal's wager: that would be a Hell of a bad way to find out one was wrong.

But wouldn't god be pissed at the people who were using Pascal's wager? To me, it doesn't reflect true faith or any devotion it's just about covering your own ass just in case there is a hell. Wouldn't god want someone who was at least honest about their feelings?

But to the other point... Even if god was real. Shouldn't people have the right to choose what and how they worship, as in the pagan stuff? Does Christianity have the right to force itself on anyone else, same goes for Islam?

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
I was hesitant of even playing with occult tools.

Why are you afraid of using cards with pictures on them? I mean, there's absolutely no credible evidence that these things actually work let alone 'court the devil'. The bible doesn't mention the use of tarot cards, so where is this irrational fear coming from?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:16:10 PM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
I was hesitant of even playing with occult tools.

Why are you afraid of using cards with pictures on them? I mean, there's absolutely no credible evidence that these things actually work let alone 'court the devil'. The bible doesn't mention the use of tarot cards, so where is this irrational fear coming from?

I've become very scripture oriented.  A lot of believers get that way eventually.  I'll save the space by just saying there are many passages in the Bible warning against false signs/wonders, divination, ect.  We have been given the gift of reason so I can take the Word seriously and contemplate it without having to be some bible thumping tool.  Not to mention when I think about it, every story I've heard from someone who experienced some freaky occult thing was from an atheist. 

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 08:58:06 PM
We have been given the gift of reason so I can take the Word seriously and contemplate it without having to be some bible thumping tool.  Not to mention when I think about it, every story I've heard from someone who experienced some freaky occult thing was an atheist.

That's fair enough... I mean, if you feel that strongly about something then there's no point in using Tarot (or whatever) if it doesn't seem or feel right.

But on the evidence side of things, those stories are just stories. We had loads of those urban myths about psychics and ouija boards, etc. Kids dying or having terrible accidents after 'dabbling'. There is absolutely no proof that any of them really happened. So for me, I take all those stories with a pinch of salt.

If I saw something 'in the flesh' I'd be happy to change my mind but until then I'm remaining highly skeptical but YMMV.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 08:58:06 PMNot to mention when I think about it, every story I've heard from someone who experienced some freaky occult thing was from an atheist.

Even if true, that's anecdotal (I've heard stories of people who experienced freaky occult stuff from religious and New Agey types as well) and that doesn't mean that those accounts are necessarily credible or that the bible's or Christian fundamentalist's take on the occult is necessarily the correct one even if some type of unexplained phenomena does exist (which I can't prove, but I may have experienced as well).

Quote
But wouldn't god be pissed at the people who were using Pascal's wager? To me, it doesn't reflect true faith or any devotion it's just about covering your own ass just in case there is a hell. Wouldn't god want someone who was at least honest about their feelings?

But to the other point... Even if god was real. Shouldn't people have the right to choose what and how they worship, as in the pagan stuff? Does Christianity have the right to force itself on anyone else, same goes for Islam?

Last answer on this because this is definitely off topic now, but you're actually right: Pascal's Wager would only be the beginning of a real faith, not the end, and not enough in itself. However, it is in lots of ways still a very good first step, and it's better than not taking the step at all because one is too certain to consider the possibility of being wrong. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it's not the end.

As for the right to choose how one worships, or whether one worships or what one worships, that again is outside the topic so I will say only as a last note that making that choice is one thing; being properly informed about what actions may influence the choice in one direction or another is something else. Certainly someone can have the right to decide, "Hey, I want to try these fortune-telling cards in real life and see if they work," but if someone else sincerely thinks that's a dangerous thing to do, basic conscience suggests they should both say so and avoid making that easy for someone.

DP

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 22, 2022, 02:12:34 PM

Quote
But wouldn't god be pissed at the people who were using Pascal's wager? To me, it doesn't reflect true faith or any devotion it's just about covering your own ass just in case there is a hell. Wouldn't god want someone who was at least honest about their feelings?

But to the other point... Even if god was real. Shouldn't people have the right to choose what and how they worship, as in the pagan stuff? Does Christianity have the right to force itself on anyone else, same goes for Islam?

Last answer on this because this is definitely off topic now, but you're actually right: Pascal's Wager would only be the beginning of a real faith, not the end, and not enough in itself. However, it is in lots of ways still a very good first step, and it's better than not taking the step at all because one is too certain to consider the possibility of being wrong. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it's not the end.

As for the right to choose how one worships, or whether one worships or what one worships, that again is outside the topic so I will say only as a last note that making that choice is one thing; being properly informed about what actions may influence the choice in one direction or another is something else. Certainly someone can have the right to decide, "Hey, I want to try these fortune-telling cards in real life and see if they work," but if someone else sincerely thinks that's a dangerous thing to do, basic conscience suggests they should both say so and avoid making that easy for someone.

But is it really dangerous? There's no evidence to suggest it is and this applies to using Tarot cards in a game (or whatever the pagan thing may be). Is it really someone's conscience or are they trying to preach to others because they feel that they should?

I get it if you have a friend who's got a drinking problem or an eating disorder. Then you are obliged to help it's the right thing to do.

But trying to say that being a pagan, witch or using cards is dangerous to someone's soul or is wrong is not anyone's call to make but their own in my view. Assuming, as I said before, that it's all about consensual adults and no one is harming anyone else.

Use the Tarot cards if you want, or if you feel genuinely threatened (which may affect your mental health) then I'd suggest the OP leave them be. But not for the supernatural reasons he was talking about.

  Proverbs! Apparently Proverbs 16, specifically 16:33! (And then apparently a whole bunch of other areas dealing with the prophets, etc.)

Here we go, here's a website called (early church history dot org) that gives a good compilation of its precedence. Didn't follow much else of the website so if it explodes into salesmanship, offense, or whatever, I didn't know and I expect you to be mature adults with discernment.  Yes, it is a cruel expectation that goes against the Signs of the Times. /cue Prince's song.

Here's a link to the compilation from said website, hope it helps!
https://earlychurchhistory.org/beliefs-2/casting-lots-in-the-bible/

As for comfort during a game, remember we are all comprised of individuals as well as various sizes of concentric, overlapping, and interlocked community circles. There's no right answer for it is inherent in such a social animal with higher cognition to need to juggle competing and even contradictory expectations into something livable for themselves. Y'know, like religious mysteries!

Do what you need to feel OK, and be open to let others gracefully bow out for their own needs.  Adulting is hard. There's no perfect rules yet from over thousands of years of trying all over the world.

It ain't forbidden. But it got a stigma. Figure it out for you and yours and be ready to accept its consequences.  You'll be fine, especially if the intent is sincere as a toy and prop.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 02:05:05 PM
This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

Guess what. There are places and whole countries that still use the "dice=gambling" excuse to ban RPGs.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:26:24 PMI can't really get on board with that tbh.

Beyond the game, psychics n' shit use the real thing to take money from the gullible IMO. None of that shit works it's all fake.

For me its effectively "the thought that counts" and a dash of "why take chances?" and a good bit of personal experience with these things and no desire to push that line.

Its also for me a litmus test to tell if someones going to be a religious kook over it.