Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2022, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Very much so. Our family had, note the had part, quite a few water diviners for some reason. The water finder type. But were persecuted and ended up living off in the middle of fucking no-where. This and first hand experience with the Satanic Panic and other problems has left me with a rather bleak view of the church anymore.

My church had no problem with D&D in the '80s. No Satanic Panic there. Rather, it was Pat Robertson's Retarded Quasi-Pentecostal Debatably-Christian Prohibitionist 700 Club that caused all of the problems.

I ignored my catechesis and did get into Ouija boards and Tarot cards in college. I saw some very strange stuff there and I would not touch them today.

Quote from: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:18:35 PMI ignored my catechesis and did get into Ouija boards and Tarot cards in college. I saw some very strange stuff there and I would not touch them today.

This is probably against the spirit of the thread, no pun intended, but I'd be interested to hear about this if you felt like talking about it. (If you'd rather not revisit it, of course, no worries.)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 19, 2022, 09:18:46 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:18:35 PMI ignored my catechesis and did get into Ouija boards and Tarot cards in college. I saw some very strange stuff there and I would not touch them today.

This is probably against the spirit of the thread, no pun intended, but I'd be interested to hear about this if you felt like talking about it. (If you'd rather not revisit it, of course, no worries.)

I'd like to know too.  From watching a couple YouTube videos from people into tarot I get the impression they're people looking for answers in the wrong places.   Which is also the reason, for myself, have become less hesitant on the original topic since the thread started.  The concern for me is when you seek answers from the occult, something could respond. 

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 19, 2022, 05:19:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 08:32:51 AM
I wonder if Kult used a non-Tarot deck count deliberately to break the occult connection problem. Its the sort of approach I'd use.

I think this probably attributes more objective value to the specifics of the tools used than is really important. Strictly speaking, you could use a perfectly ordinary deck of playing cards for divination as long as you worked out your own scheme of symbolic meaning for the cards, and by the standards of the Catechism that would be just as sinful an act as using any classical Tarot deck.

This is the thought process of the religious nuts. Where anything, and I mean anything even hinting of the supernatural is eeeeevil and must be killed. A standard deck of playing cards is never going to be a functioning Tarot reading device no matter how hard someone tries to delude themselves. So the religious quack should be pointing at the wanna-be tarot reader and yell "loony!" because that is at least accurate in some sense.

Tarot reading and many other occult trappings have some rather specific rules to them. You handle the object just so or its going to break. Alot of occult magic is remarkably fragile. Fuck up even one little step and you at best get nothing. And at worst attract somethings attention.

At the end of the day though I dont care of these things are occult, superscience from atlantis, psionics, subconcious/ID monster dialup, or all nonesense. Some people can make these things work and some people should never be handed a loaded gun. Hell. Some people should never be allowed near RPGs.

Storygamers are proof of that. 

Here's the video I was referring to.  Looking again I can't tell if this is officially from the publisher.  I think it's ill advised to market the thing like some supernatural experience.  I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Drawing lots is the only biblically accepted form of divination (forgetting book, chapter, & verse, but I know it's there from 12+ years of Christian school)

Off the top of my head: they drew lots to decide between the two finalists to replace Judas as apostle #12.

But there was also a lot of prayer in the mix, as they were trying to discern God's will about it.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 16, 2022, 08:16:41 PM
Fairly traditional Catholic here, and going by the Catechism, yes, as long as the cards are used strictly for entertainment purposes within the game you'll be perfectly OK. Tarot cards are just sets of symbols and tools -- they present no spiritual danger as long as you don't use them in any kind of real-world occult exercise.

One caveat to consider is whether there any people in the group who might get hooked on the idea of using them for real-world divination after using them that way in the game -- children, say, or people with extant unhealthy interest in the occult. But that is obviously going to depend on who exactly you're gaming with, so that has to be your judgement call.

At the risk of redundancy, this, and for the same reasons.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 20, 2022, 02:20:58 AM
I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Last I knew something like more than a quarter of people have mental illnesses.  And you ideally have around 5 people for a TTRPG, so...

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 20, 2022, 02:20:58 AM
I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Last I knew something like more than a quarter of people have mental illnesses.  And you ideally have around 5 people for a TTRPG, so...

Mental illness covers a pretty wide spectrum of conditions so I am almost surprised it isn't slightly higher.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 20, 2022, 04:26:21 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Drawing lots is the only biblically accepted form of divination (forgetting book, chapter, & verse, but I know it's there from 12+ years of Christian school)

Off the top of my head: they drew lots to decide between the two finalists to replace Judas as apostle #12.

But there was also a lot of prayer in the mix, as they were trying to discern God's will about it.

That was because both candidates were equally qualified. Basically flip a coin and save us the cost of an election.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 20, 2022, 02:20:58 AM
I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Last I knew something like more than a quarter of people have mental illnesses.  And you ideally have around 5 people for a TTRPG, so...

That's a lot like saying the majority of gamers are overweight...when Ben Stein claimed a few years ago that overweight people are mentally ill.

Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 02:07:12 AMA standard deck of playing cards is never going to be a functioning Tarot reading device no matter how hard someone tries to delude themselves. ... Tarot reading and many other occult trappings have some rather specific rules to them.

Tarot decks weren't created until the 15th century and weren't widely used for divination until the 18th century; I don't think there's any objective "truth" to their meaning or how they're used. To the best of my understanding of Church teaching, it's the intent of the action, the attempt to obtain (scientifically) inaccessible knowledge by methods other than straightforward prayer, that renders one vulnerable to dangerous spiritual influences -- not whether you get the techniques right or not.

QuoteSome people should never be allowed near RPGs.

Well, yes. But that's always been true. 

Have not read the whole thread, but I think the Lord is a bit more powerful than a pack of funny playing cards.

Here's my two bit, though I'm sure most of this has already been said ...

If you're not actually using the tarot card for an occult experience, then it's not a sin.

Even so, there are some reasons why you might want to stay away.

Using tarots in a game can acclimate you to their presence, reducing your resistance should you be tempted to use them for occult purposes later.

When others who are into the occult see you using tarots in a game, they might think you a kindred spirit and invite you to do other things, which would be an avoidable temptation.

Personally, the idea of using actual tarots in the game makes me very uncomfortable.  Maybe that's just me, but I think it's more likely to be God telling me don't go there.  When you have such a feeling it's generally smart to listen to it.

Are you guys are seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??