Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"?

Not so much. 

Kult says God is Dead, which is good because when He was alive He hated you and made all of reality to imprison your divinely powered immortal soul.  Kult also has Jesus planning to start global nuclear war as a way to basically help free the handful of people who will ascend into Enlightenment do so, and too bad for the rest of humanity (by comparison, Buddah found Enlightenment, didn't like it, and now tries to "help" other people by stopping them from finding it and freeing themselves). 

The Celestial Chorus is pretty much what you describe, although they don't talk about reality being an illusion so much (as I recall).

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"?

Not so much. 

Kult says God is Dead, which is good because when He was alive He hated you and made all of reality to imprison your divinely powered immortal soul.  Kult also has Jesus planning to start global nuclear war as a way to basically help free the handful of people who will ascend into Enlightenment do so, and too bad for the rest of humanity (by comparison, Buddah found Enlightenment, didn't like it, and now tries to "help" other people by stopping them from finding it and freeing themselves). 

The Celestial Chorus is pretty much what you describe, although they don't talk about reality being an illusion so much (as I recall).

Sounds pretty damnably like the Christian Gnostic heresy to me. The God who created the material world was an evil prick who trapped our godlike selves in a prison of mortal flesh was destroyed when Jesus revealed his secret truth (give the leaders all your worldly possessions to learn it - seriously, it was the Scientology of its day) of how to escape this the prison by embracing your inner self so you can become a god.

Gnosticism keeps cropping up across the ages (its current iteration is modern scientism/transhumanism complete with the notion that a man can be a woman or an attack helicopter if he just believes it hard enough) because it very much appeals to a certain class of self-appointed elitist because its system states outright that those with the proper self-reflection REALLY ARE the elite who are more enlightened and just better than the poor masses who have not accepted the Gnostic beliefs.

So its also not a surprise it keeps popping up in games and literature where "You're a special snowflake" is part of the appeal.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 18, 2022, 01:33:42 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"?

Not so much. 

Kult says God is Dead, which is good because when He was alive He hated you and made all of reality to imprison your divinely powered immortal soul.  Kult also has Jesus planning to start global nuclear war as a way to basically help free the handful of people who will ascend into Enlightenment do so, and too bad for the rest of humanity (by comparison, Buddah found Enlightenment, didn't like it, and now tries to "help" other people by stopping them from finding it and freeing themselves). 

The Celestial Chorus is pretty much what you describe, although they don't talk about reality being an illusion so much (as I recall).

Sounds pretty damnably like the Christian Gnostic heresy to me.

My bad.  They're both Gnostic inspired, yes, it's just one is "shiny happy people holding hands" to be closer to God and the other is a foot literally stomping on your soul forever while God screams "FUCK YOU" until He has a heart attack and dies.

Anyway, I failed a reading check.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 02:30:57 PM
My bad.  They're both Gnostic inspired, yes, it's just one is "shiny happy people holding hands" to be closer to God and the other is a foot literally stomping on your soul forever while God screams "FUCK YOU" until He has a heart attack and dies.

Anyway, I failed a reading check.

  Yes, it sounds like the CC is more late 20th century, crystals and rainbows New Age Neognosticism, whereas Kult is the more 'old school' "The Demiurge is evil and the world is a horrible place" variety.

I'm not up to speed on Kult, but here's my take on Tarot cards.  I think as long as they are used for entertainment purposes only, they're probably fine.  What is condemned is divination practices through forces aligned with the the Devil or his emissaries.  Think of King Saul consorting with a medium to try to discern the future outcome.  Game purposes only?  I think if it makes it more fun and no one is actually taking it seriously it should be fine.

Another thing to consider is that Paul tells us not to do things that might lead weaker-minded brethren to sin.  His was in the context of whether it was ok to consume food sold on the secondary market that had originally been sacrificed to idol/other gods.  His point was that the food was fine to consume unless it caused a brother to stumble.  That is, if it caused them to question their faith or seek other faiths, then it was to be avoided.

So, with the tarot cards, if you find that someone in your group starts wondering if they can be used to actually discern things (e.g. - they start to stumble), then maybe lay off and go a different direction.

Just my 2 coppers.

Context is key. Without going off on a blog post sized exposition about Gnosticism that would dwarf anything already said on the subject here, using Tarot in the context of Kult's cosmology strongly requires maturity on the part of the GM and players to keep the false and fictional cosmology and setting of the game completely separate from the real world away from the game. Using a real-world divination tool as part of gameplay could make that more difficult.

I'd lean on the side of caution and simply not play Kult at all.

To me, tarot decks are tools and I use them only for story telling (as in solo role playing games and the like.) 

Just for fun, here's one way that I use them: http://tangent-zero.com/files/FourHouses_Tangent-Zero.pdf

At the end of the day though it boils down to this.

Does it make you uncomfortable using it as is?

If Yes. Then will changing some aspect fix that?

Of No then dont use it. Replace it with something else like a random gen table, etc.

If I came across a game that used the full on complete Tarot aspects then I'd baulk at that and start jettisoning or changing enough that its no longer a problem. And that can be as easy as just not handling the cards 'properly' to break the connection. And maybe swap out the actual patterns for something made up.

EG: change it like Ravenloft did.

The question I generally ask is, "what will you do if it works?"  There are some doors that are more easily openned than they are closed.  Even from an agnostic, psychological stand point, you have to ask yourself if you're ready to accept the potential consequences.

Exactly. One of my aunts could work an ouija board. That got more than a little out of hand. She eventually put the thing away in the attic in true Lovecraftian form. ahem.

Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2022, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Very much so. Our family had, note the had part, quite a few water diviners for some reason. The water finder type. But were persecuted and ended up living off in the middle of fucking no-where. This and first hand experience with the Satanic Panic and other problems has left me with a rather bleak view of the church anymore.

Aw, that sucks! Yeah, it doesn't take much for people to see how the forbidden can be used as a means to power through accusation. Great gaming fodder for RPGs, but  harsh lesson learnt from our real world exploitations.

It's something why I still love playing with game alignment, because each viewpoint can take the same social institution and see only their worldview in them. Yet it is a dangerous game in real life with real lives in consequence. Just like we can play with combat in a safe pretend way, we can play with worldview and its distorting lens in a safe pretend way. However I can see how it could be an uncomfortable "fun" too close to home. 

Great responses.  The references to scripture are especially appreciated.  I have experience with two of the players who are interested and we'll be trying to recruit one or two other strangers.  I'm not really worried about these people being a potential problem since I've found it pretty easy to identify troublemakers.  I'll also do a quick interview to go over the concepts I'll be promoting and talking about anything the player deems too upsetting for them.  I normally don't do that or expect it when I'm a player but for this game I think it has to be discussed. 

I'm gonna answer Omegas thoughts/questions on the matter as I just downloaded the deck (apparently its available for free as a PDF) and looked up the rules on their homepage. This is not so much as a reply to Omega himself as it's just tagging his post for my reply.

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
My thoughts as this bug me now and then.

1: Are the cards straight up real Tarot cards? Or are they some sort of custom set? Like Ravenlofts?

If they are real Tarot cards then we get into the tricky part. Otherwise its a problem only for the religious lunatics who give everyone else a bad name.

It is not a real deck. It doesnt have 78 cards, it only has 68.
The Major arcana is not the same arcana as from a real Tarot deck. It's major arcana consists of the Archons and the Death angels and have different meanings than a real Tarotcard. It also has 23 cards in its major arcana instead of the 22.

Verdict: If you believe a true tarot deck having supernatural divination powers, be calm, as the Kult tarot deck is not a true tarot deck

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
2: Are the cards used to do actual tarot patterns? Or are they used as just a fancy randomizer? Ravenloft again has you lay the cards out in a fake tarot pattern. Lace and Steel just uses the cards as a randomizer.

If the game uses real patterns then things get alot more trickier. But still not a full problem unless the next factor comes up.

Looking at the instructions, this might be trickier as the cards are supposed to be placed in a cross pattern resembling a tarot reading. This might concerna some people as it might feel ritualistic. But I think thats just for flavor. It doesnt really matter what pattern one places them in as they're supposed to read in a certain order anyway. If placing the cards as a cross feels wrong, just place them all out in a line 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 before "reading" them.

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
3: Is the DM expected to actually make divinations and readings? Are the cards supposed to be handled like real Tarot cards?

If yes then you need to stop and look really closely at this as now you are on the edge of the precipice. Stuff like this that employs the real trappings of the occult at every step make me very leery. That is way too much for just an RPG. And feels really fiddly too.

It's not supposed to be a reading or divination. It's just a randomizer using cards. It's not even using a true Tarot deck.

The cards are just drawn in a order to on the fly decide "Who is the bad guy? What are their motives? What are their means?" and so on.

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
Everyone has their thresholds. The line they will not cross. I'll present some solutions with the cravat that sure enough someone out there will flip out even at these fixes. The solution then is to remove that player as you never know how deranged they really are or what hell they can cause for you.

1: Replace the tarot with standard playing cards. You lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
2: Change the patterns to not be real ones. Again you lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
3: Drop the divination part, or at least drop the rules of handling the cards and so on. This has stopped being ambiance and is drifting uncomfortably  into the occult. You lose nothing and gain alot of peace of mind.

Hope that helps.

I kept Omegas final words in my reply as its good advice that I agree with . Nobody should do something they feel uncomfortable with.

I wonder if Kult used a non-Tarot deck count deliberately to break the occult connection problem. Its the sort of approach I'd use.
Even if someone flipped out and claimed it was really real occult they could just sit back and point out that no its not.
Or even pare it down to a more easier to produce standard playing card deck count. Though the count they used could have been due to production requirements. But that would be a rather off standard need? I know from working in the CCG biz briefly how some printers require you to have X cards on a sheet. At 68, assuming no extra cards, you could get a 16 x 17 pattern for 4 decks a sheet.

Just one of those old work related curiosities into what the process was behind the decision.

As for the pattern. Its rendered meaningless as the cards arent standard.

Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 08:32:51 AM
I wonder if Kult used a non-Tarot deck count deliberately to break the occult connection problem. Its the sort of approach I'd use.

I think this probably attributes more objective value to the specifics of the tools used than is really important. Strictly speaking, you could use a perfectly ordinary deck of playing cards for divination as long as you worked out your own scheme of symbolic meaning for the cards, and by the standards of the Catechism that would be just as sinful an act as using any classical Tarot deck. It's the conscious choice to try to learn the future through a spiritually-inflected physical medium or procedure, rather than simply praying to God for guidance, which is the danger -- simply making superficial alterations to the makeup or organization of the deck so it's technically no longer a "true" Tarot wouldn't really make much difference to someone determined to use them that way.

Still, if the objective is to head people off from immediately thinking of that option, then anything that makes people less likely to think it will work may not be a bad thing.