Any Christians out there?  I'm planning to run a game of Kult.  I figured this forum is as good a place as any to get fellow Christian perspectives on the game and more specifically the Kult Tarot cards.  I'm assuming if I post this on rpg.net I would be inundated with all types of twattery from atheists. We're gamers so obviously we never bought into that satanic panic nonsense.   To me Kult is not blasphemy because it's just a horror setting and for gaming the tarot cards aren't real.  However i always stay clear of actual occult stuff.  I would never use tarot for actual divination and wouldn't mess with for example a Ouija board but the Kult Tarot cards look like a cool way to play the game.  I'm curious to hear other Christian thoughts on this matter. 

Fairly traditional Catholic here, and going by the Catechism, yes, as long as the cards are used strictly for entertainment purposes within the game you'll be perfectly OK. Tarot cards are just sets of symbols and tools -- they present no spiritual danger as long as you don't use them in any kind of real-world occult exercise.

One caveat to consider is whether there any people in the group who might get hooked on the idea of using them for real-world divination after using them that way in the game -- children, say, or people with extant unhealthy interest in the occult. But that is obviously going to depend on who exactly you're gaming with, so that has to be your judgement call.

My thoughts as this bug me now and then.

1: Are the cards straight up real Tarot cards? Or are they some sort of custom set? Like Ravenlofts?

If they are real Tarot cards then we get into the tricky part. Otherwise its a problem only for the religious lunatics who give everyone else a bad name.

2: Are the cards used to do actual tarot patterns? Or are they used as just a fancy randomizer? Ravenloft again has you lay the cards out in a fake tarot pattern. Lace and Steel just uses the cards as a randomizer.

If the game uses real patterns then things get alot more trickier. But still not a full problem unless the next factor comes up.

3: Is the DM expected to actually make divinations and readings? Are the cards supposed to be handled like real Tarot cards?

If yes then you need to stop and look really closely at this as now you are on the edge of the precipice. Stuff like this that employs the real trappings of the occult at every step make me very leery. That is way too much for just an RPG. And feels really fiddly too.

Everyone has their thresholds. The line they will not cross. I'll present some solutions with the cravat that sure enough someone out there will flip out even at these fixes. The solution then is to remove that player as you never know how deranged they really are or what hell they can cause for you.

1: Replace the tarot with standard playing cards. You lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
2: Change the patterns to not be real ones. Again you lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
3: Drop the divination part, or at least drop the rules of handling the cards and so on. This has stopped being ambiance and is drifting uncomfortably  into the occult. You lose nothing and gain alot of peace of mind.

Hope that helps.

The game is very adult oriented so my players would be mature.  Playing with unstable delusional people can hopefully be avoided. 

From my limited knowledge of tarot the similarities are that you interpret the cards and they have similar structure of suites and arcana symbols.  I don't believe the cards could be used for actual tarot since the symbols are specific to the major NPC archons and death angels.  Their characteristics are explained in the game and I guess that's how you come up with random stories, characters, items, locations, ect.  There are also less cards than a normal tarot and you rely on a chart to come up with "readings".  I'm not a big fan of how the publisher is marketing the deck though.  Their video and material on it suggest some kind of arcane power behind them but that's probably just theatrics. 

I look at only as an interesting game aid and performance prop.  The equivalent to a dice roll table but with imagination powering it. Nothing more.  I got them when the core book came out just because I was so hyped for the new edition.  It only occurred to me later that it could potentially pose a problem.  To be honest when I first actually thought of the implications my first instinct is to play it safe and just not mess with it. However the more I think about it I'm almost feeling like my hesitation is a little silly.  I'm thinking "do these dumb cards have more power than my faith?"   Nah.  Still if anyone thinks otherwise I would be fascinated to hear it and would definitely be sympathetic to your opinions on this.  Spiritual dangers are not to be taken too lightly imo. 

Drawing lots is the only biblically accepted form of divination (forgetting book, chapter, & verse, but I know it's there from 12+ years of Christian school) -- and Tarot is literally drawing lots with various symbols per lot. As is Chaldean lot drawing, Chinese I Ching, Yoruba Ifa, Persian sparrow-drawn poetry couplet fortunes, etc.  I hope that puts you at ease, especially since you are not even using them for divination.

Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Prophesy is technically not risky divination per se. Neither is dream interpreting. These are seen as the divine deliberately communicating to the human, not the human risking opening up to reach the divine. The latter is perceived as exposing one human to "the astral" unguided and unprotected, which can end up with a 'phone call' answered by anyone in between, who may have ill intent. Hope that helps!

(Yes, there were USA Christian communities who forbade D&D because of the dice, but allowed its early lot drawing of chits. No, don't ask me to square that round peg. Just accept that some people are persnickety in literal interpretation. )

I am a Roman Catholic.  I agree that the Tarot cards, not being used for divination, are not intrinsically bad, it's a person using them in that way, but creating something that many people use for occult practices is something I wouldn't create, becuase I made something that is traditionally made for that purpose, and has the potential to be abused in such a manner.  Thank you for listening to views on the topic respectfully.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 17, 2022, 12:15:29 AM
From my limited knowledge of tarot the similarities are that you interpret the cards and they have similar structure of suites and arcana symbols.  I don't believe the cards could be used for actual tarot since the symbols are specific to the major NPC archons and death angels.  Their characteristics are explained in the game and I guess that's how you come up with random stories, characters, items, locations, ect.  There are also less cards than a normal tarot and you rely on a chart to come up with "readings".  I'm not a big fan of how the publisher is marketing the deck though.  Their video and material on it suggest some kind of arcane power behind them but that's probably just theatrics.

There was a tarot deck released for Mage the Ascension that used the same suits and arcana and broad symbols (upside down guy for the fool, female figures on the Queen cards, etc.).  People who were into tarot said it would lead to dark readings and such, given the dark pictures, but to me it seemed like saying you'd have "dark mathematics" because somebody used a spooky font when typing out multiplication tables.  Personally, I found it a great random element generator when I was stumped for ideas in a game and needing inspiration on the fly.  Up there with the game decks (not tarot!) for Hellas and Torg.

The tarot deck is like a Rorschach test in that it has no inherent truth to it, it's just a tool to start conversations and thoughts (and con folk out of their cash).  It's as accurate a form of divination as bibliomancy involving the Bible (i.e. the practice of opening the bible to a random passage, and then assigning it meaning relevant to your life).  And that's the thing: humans love to find meaning and pattern in chaos.  It's how we make language and math work, it's how our brains are literally designed to work.

In my experience, the people who have problems with divination are the ones who feel their lives are already out of control and terrifying, and are looking for some sort of guidance about what to do next in order to be safe.  But these days they turn to news and internet forums that support a viewpoint they already agree with over playing cards.  You know the people who talk about getting "the real news" and wallow in conspiracy theories (right, left, both sides have these folks)?  Yeah, they're playing tarot, even if their decks are a few cards short.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 17, 2022, 12:15:29 AMSpiritual dangers are not to be taken too lightly imo.

Honestly, I'd worry more about booze, pot, porn, poor diet, poor interactions with others, social anxiety, and a host of other things before I'd worry about the tarot.  Having said all that, different people handle things differently.  Some folks can eat a whole chocolate cake for dinner and maintain a healthy body, other people can't.  Some can drink without problem, others are recovering alcoholics.  Everybody's unique, so maybe your spreads ruin an already unhinged person's life.  I'm doubtful, but you know yours.   

Looking at the deck, it's not being marketed as something that could be used as a 'real' Tarot deck (something that left me uncomfortable with the White Wolf iteration of the Ravenloft Tarokka), so that bit of scandal isn't present. I'm with Stephen--it depends on the group, and if the risk of leading others into sin is a realistic concern. This will, of course, differ with individuals and broader context. I'd have had no problem running a Ravenloft adventure with a Tarokka reading for a random group in the 90s, but I'd be far more hesitant today.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 16, 2022, 08:16:41 PM
Fairly traditional Catholic here, and going by the Catechism, yes, as long as the cards are used strictly for entertainment purposes within the game you'll be perfectly OK. Tarot cards are just sets of symbols and tools -- they present no spiritual danger as long as you don't use them in any kind of real-world occult exercise.

One caveat to consider is whether there any people in the group who might get hooked on the idea of using them for real-world divination after using them that way in the game -- children, say, or people with extant unhealthy interest in the occult. But that is obviously going to depend on who exactly you're gaming with, so that has to be your judgement call.

Greetings!

Yes, I agree. Good approach, Stephen.

As a Christian, I also agree that it is always wise to be cautious and sober with any kind of spiritual matters.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 17, 2022, 08:04:01 AM
There was a tarot deck released for Mage the Ascension that used the same suits and arcana and broad symbols (upside down guy for the fool, female figures on the Queen cards, etc.).

Roman Catholic here. I'm going to double down on "use as a randomizer or other non-occult purpose is fine." Indeed, the traditional playing card deck is basically just the minor arcana (swords, cups, wands, coins) stripped of the distinct pictures. There are even card games akin to common ones today that employ the deck as just a more elaborate deck of cards.

The reason I quoted the above was specifically that the MtA also included a booklet that gave each card in the deck an association with some element of the MtA setting and various means of using a set of draws from the deck as an adventure seed generator. That use too is absolutely fine (the metaphysics of MtA are pretty anti-Christian, but that's another matter entirely... seriously, it's easier to play a Catholic Euthanatos* than a member of the Celestial Chorus** that is supposed to be the default Christian mage organization).

It's only when you veer into actual occult practices or provide scandal by suggesting there might be some legitimate basis to the use of the practice to others. One does not want to tempt others to sin after all.

* specifically, they didn't clearly lay it out until the Revised Trad Book, but the Euthanatos paradigm is one of meditation upon and union with godforms. This can syncretise pretty well with certain categories of Catholic mysticism that seeks union with God and a better understanding of His Will through prayer and meditation. You're just choosing to only meditate upon the Triune God and only seeking unity with His Will.

** by contrast, the Chorus' paradigm is that all religions (even pagan ones) are true and just shards of a greater ur-faith where each member is a fragment of a shattered god (i.e. its core tenant is that YOU are God... basically new age paganism with a fake Christian wrapper to lead Christians uncertain of their own faith astray). So, yeah, the death/fate mage faction is actually better at being Catholic than the supposed holy roller faction.

There's a reason I've come to appreciate VtM's cosmology played 100% straight (including the early-edition version of Golconda allowing one to become mortal again... they just have to give up all that unholy power to get it). God only gave Caine immortality so he'd have all the time he'd need to seek forgiveness and repentance... it was Caine out of spite who bargained with the demoness Lilith for unholy power and became the first vampire... which is fairly close to the Dracula story; where Vlad Tepes learned the black arts from Satan at Scholomance and his inhuman powers and weaknesses came from his deal with the Devil.

I have no idea what Kult is.

And yeah, as a Christian, I was brought up on the "Tarot Cards bad" meme as well, so I'm inclined toward suggesting avoiding "the appearance of evil." (1 Thess 5: 22).

But I also don't like Savage Worlds because of the playing cards used for initiative in that game.  But probably not for the reasons one might think!

A) I just wasn't happy with the Savage Worlds Rules, in part because I'm a GURPS snob and Savage Worlds is so basic and simple.  BORING.

B) The last Savage Worlds game also had Falkenstein rules arbitrarily interspersed and I HATE FAlkenstein.  That campaign was and endless exercise of broken rules and absurdity one after another.

So as a result, I started stacking the deck, ensuring that the players got very high initiative cards, while the GM consistently was pulling 2's and 3's for the bad guys.  (The poor player sitting next to the GM also suffered from a poor initiative on occasion).  But seriously?  How is it possible for the bad guys (with 20 initiative slots) to consistently get a string of cards and none of them are higher than a 6?!?!?

It was amazing how often those Jokers would show up in the Players hands.  It seemed like one or two players would get a Joker every round . . . .

Any rate, it's too easy to cheat with cards.

Stick with the dice.

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Very much so. Our family had, note the had part, quite a few water diviners for some reason. The water finder type. But were persecuted and ended up living off in the middle of fucking no-where. This and first hand experience with the Satanic Panic and other problems has left me with a rather bleak view of the church anymore.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 17, 2022, 12:15:29 AMI look at only as an interesting game aid and performance prop. ...Still if anyone thinks otherwise I would be fascinated to hear it... Spiritual dangers are not to be taken too lightly imo.

They aren't, but as you say, neither are they to be thought inherently more powerful than an informed faith.

One thing to remember is that the degree of psychological obsession which can render someone vulnerable to negative spiritual influences can, in principle, be about anything, not just specifically occult-themed imagery or meaning systems; it's the degree of the obsession that's more important than its particular target, in most cases. As long as everybody knows it's a game and only uses the cards for the game, I'd say everybody should be fine.

(There's a parallel litmus test I've always used to evaluate someone's drinking habits: Can the person, on a reliable basis, stop after having one drink? If he can, he doesn't have a problem.)

Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 17, 2022, 12:01:42 PM
* specifically, they didn't clearly lay it out until the Revised Trad Book,

More likely they didn't really decide to make something up until the Revised Trad books.  Mage was and continues to be a trainwreck of a game, and I say this as someone who loved it and spent years playing (and tweaking it).

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 17, 2022, 12:01:42 PM
** by contrast, the Chorus' paradigm is that all religions (even pagan ones) are true and just shards of a greater ur-faith where each member is a fragment of a shattered god (i.e. its core tenant is that YOU are God... basically new age paganism with a fake Christian wrapper to lead Christians uncertain of their own faith astray). So, yeah, the death/fate mage faction is actually better at being Catholic than the supposed holy roller faction.

The Chorus was a complete and utter mess from top to bottom.

You basically have a group of people who know "belief makes reality", and so they go out and find those whose faiths (not to be confused with True Faith, which is a separate thing) are strong enough to let them shape reality.  Then they take those people and say "by the way, your faith is wrong about a lot of stuff, so let us teach you what is really going on.  Jesus?  Yeah, if enough people he wasn't the Son of God, then he wasn't.  Now use your Christian faith to power this rote a Virtual Adept taught you.  Just replace the laptop with candles or something.  It all makes sense because Qabbalists in the Order of Hermes assigned specific Spheres to make it work this way.  Even the guys who don't admit magic exists use a 10-base Sphere system to do their magic."  The Technocracy has a similar problem where their paradigm of science shaping reality doesn't hold water, and you realize the Oracles have dropped their paradigms and just make stuff happen.  At which point the whole game becomes essentially Harry Potter, where certain people have an inherent "magical" quality to them that really has nothing to do with belief making reality after all.  Which might be fine if it wasn't the exact opposite of what the game advertises itself as being about.

And -then- on top of that you have line developers and freelance authors who can't agree on how the systems work and won't really show their work to give you a better understanding of where they're coming from at least.  All packaged up with the Storyteller System which isn't that great a system to start with.  And I haven't even touched how the social commentary seems edgy and profound... if you're a liberal arts major who thinks the world owes you something because you're going mid five figures into debt for a humanities degree and the best job you'll ever land is waiting tables at Chilis.  "Fuck you modern medicine!  I'll use the crystal healing my tattoo artist swears by!  Now, time to play a game where I'm right and can shoot the people who say I'm wrong!"

Rant rant rant. 

So how do you fix it all?

* First of all, the Spheres are a mechanic and only a mechanic.  I respect that ideally each willworker would have their own entire magic system unique to them, and that's an unrealistic goal, but characters in setting don't talk about their Spheres or Sphere ratings any more than they'd say "I have six dots in Willpower and four dots in Firearms, but my first through third health boxes have Xs in them."
* Secondly, the Oracles don't exist (at least not as presented).  There are willworkers who drop foci, sure, but they never drop their paradigm.  No matter how powerful you get, there's some things you simply can't do.  Oracles are mysteries, practically gods to people who can reshape reality at a whim. 
* Third, the Traditions are losing in large part because they literally can't agree about anything other than "we have to stop the Technocracy".  There's small members of each group who try to work together, but it's like bringing together the most devout/extreme examples of a Muslim and a Jew and a Christian and telling them they're all right at the same time, while murderous cyborgs and credit adjusters are hunting them; it's not impossible, but collaboration is almost the exception rather than the norm, and when they do work together it's in a "you go do magic stuff your wrong way, and leave me to do my magic stuff the right way" fashion.
* Fourth, the Trads and Technos are morally gray, the Nephandi are black as fuck (but some mages are labeled such out of politics or misunderstanding without actually being a Nephandus at all), and the Marauders are so detached from Consensual reality (and shared classifications!) as to be beyond human morality (what ethical viewpoint does a rainbow possess?).  For a lot of folks all of this a "duh" sort of thing.  For some though, it needs to be spelled out.  In big glowing letters.  And some of them wrote the books.

I'll be good now.  Just venting about an ex I guess.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"?