As I frequently note, my church is full of pictures of a man in a dress with long hair and a beard.  Talk about your mixed messages.

The more I think about this, the more I believe that the most common religion for the society should be the basis for which a tabletop roleplaying game frames itself. Much of the enjoyment of ttrpgs comes from the vicarious lawbreaking that adventurers engage in, without a common moral or ethical framework to go against, the game is not as much fun. For most westerners, that moral and ethical framework comes from Christianity. IMHO. YMMV.

Quote from: BadApple on October 25, 2023, 01:13:11 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PM
Equal rights. The dignity of all human beings.

Those ideas are not self evident but come from two separate religions- Buddhism and Christianity. I'll be focusing on the latter as I know more about it (and more RPG designers are Westerners than non-Westerners).

I'll attempt to list every modern western value and show how it comes from Christianity's specific theological tenets. This may or may not be correct. I know only slightly more about Christianity than the average person.

Equality: All are made in the Image of the supreme deity with no equals or greaters. Poor, rich, sick, healthy, strong, weak.

Mercy: Supreme deity, who is goodness, is merciful. Therefore being merciful is good and being cruel (the opposite) is bad.

Absolute-non killing: Supreme deity said no killing (killing is thus always bad).

Humility: humans were once perfect, but fell from an ideal state, therefore they will never be perfect ever and there is nothing to be proud of

Envy is bad: no reason to be jealous of another, you're equal

Homosexuality is bad: Supreme deity said sex with another of your sex is bad.

Bestiality is bad: Supreme deity said having sex with animals is bad

Crossdressing is bad: Supreme deity said so.

The list goes on, but the important thing to take away is that if you remove the supreme deity you remove every single justification for Christian morality, just as removing karma removes every justification for Hindu or Buddhist morality.

Of course, being fictional worlds, gameworlds may have any sort of excuse as to why the sentiment that all people are equal isn't the height of delusion. For instance, it could be a law of the universe that all humans are equal, and that mercy and helping the weak are valued over strength. So your level 20 fighter might not make it into a good afterlife if he dies in battle, but the level 0 peasant might if he donates to charity, if he helps those even worse off than him, etc. Gameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.  Are you trying to clarify a moral code, clarify how to implement a moral code,  or contrast a moral code?

It kind of feels like an attempt to start and argument over religion couched as a discussion on RPG world building.

I'm talking about how the cosmology of your world is extremely important for setting a definition of 'good' and 'evil'. What realms there are, what happens after you die, what gods there are (if any), etc.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 25, 2023, 09:50:09 PM
I'm talking about how the cosmology of your world is extremely important for setting a definition of 'good' and 'evil'. What realms there are, what happens after you die, what gods there are (if any), etc.

I'm not sure that it is.

For good/evil, I use the definition given in AD&D 1E DMG. For a couple of really simple reasons. One, I think it's interesting. Two, I think it's clear and it works. The alignment confusion D&D is famous for, in my estimation, is evidence of what happens when you deviate from how the good/evil axis is presented in 1E.

There is a huge consideration of how the 1E definition of good/evil applies to the game world. Good is defined as respect for three enumerated "human" rights. None of which are "equality" by the way. And human in scary quotes because when you have a world with elves and dwarves and so on, it's not obvious where the line is drawn. It's for every GM to decide for their own worlds. What works for me is I consider "playable" races to be considered human, non-playable ones not. And that settles the question of whether or not a Paladin can kill orc babies. The answer is not going to be the same at every table, but if you follow this system, at least you have a clear answer.

So I start with a clear framework from which to describe or "define" or organize my cosmology.

As for the reason I'm not sure that starting with cosmology always yields a definition of good and evil is because the rules for morals and ethical codes do not necessarily apply to divine beings.

Consider destruction of property. That's vandalism, and it's wrong, yes? Well, not necessarily. It's not really vandalism or wrong when you destroy your own property. Well, if divine beings, whether individually or collectively, in part or in whole, have some "ownership" claim to pretty much everything in the world, then they can kill the innocent and it not be murder.

One way I can think of in which cosmology comes first, good/evil second is something like where God gives humans free will to choose between good and evil. If in my cosmology this was not likewise given to elves or dwarves or orcs, then that may tell me something important about how elves, dwarves, and orcs behave. It doesn't tell me about good and evil itself, only where different races fit.

Quote from: oggsmash on October 25, 2023, 01:16:13 PM
   My understanding with the no killing is that is not and has never been so.   MURDER is prohibited but killing for war or self defense is more than allowed.

Thank you, yes, this is correct the hebrew word is correctly translated as murder.

I've yet to see a single RPG with a well built polytheism system.

Maybe Arrows of Indra? But it's not a custom built polytheism Pundit took the actual beliefs of India.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 25, 2023, 01:18:46 PM

Just to be clear, I want pointing to nuns (or pastors) as a sign of woman's rights, more of a sign of being able to participate in religious rites, become saints, etc. Or saints AND warriors like Joan of Arc.

As a slight aside, have you read Mark Twain's  "Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc" ? I read it about a year ago and when I was looking into the history of the book, I was surprised that Mark Twain basically wrote the book by doing research in France, because she wasn't widely known outside of France at the time, and somehow he became enamored with her as a boy or young man by hearing about her from someone.

Recently I have been working on adapting Christian morality and religion, the AD&D alignment system, and some of Norse mythology that inspired Tolkien, into my own religion/morality system for a game I'm working on.

I like the idea that there is a single god who created the world/universe and whose presence influences the alignment system of the setting, what is good, what is evil, what is lawful, what is chaotic.   I like the idea that there are other beings who pose as false gods, rebel angels with some power to pretend to be gods. Or beings whose nature does not allow them to create as the true god does, but they still existed before god created the world, and they are able to exert some power over the lives of beings in the world and want to be worshiped, or maybe they want to undue the creation of the world by destruction because of jealousy for their inability to create.

I think I'd be leaning towards a 5 point "morality system" of lawful, good, chaotic, evil, neutral, at least as major moral alignments, with characters being able to fluctuate somewhat on the secondary axis.  For example, a character might choose to be Good as their major alignment, they would be aspiring to be Good at all times, but there'd be wiggle room for whether they could be Good by being Lawful, or Good by being Chaotic, or Good by being Neutral.

I mean, in the end, alignments have to mean something, they can't just be arbitrary or for the luls.   And the whole "chaotic good" manic stereotype is so boring.

Just remembered an obvious example: Pendragon.

While Christians should be chaste, forgiving, charitable, etc., pagans are encouraged to be brave, vengeful and lustful.

Although, TBH, I don't remember my players making many efforts to be charitable or forgiving in my D&D games... occasionally they'll make an effort to save a town, but forgive an enemy? That is rare...

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on October 26, 2023, 09:43:38 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 25, 2023, 01:18:46 PM

Just to be clear, I want pointing to nuns (or pastors) as a sign of woman's rights, more of a sign of being able to participate in religious rites, become saints, etc. Or saints AND warriors like Joan of Arc.

As a slight aside, have you read Mark Twain's  "Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc" ? I read it about a year ago and when I was looking into the history of the book, I was surprised that Mark Twain basically wrote the book by doing research in France, because she wasn't widely known outside of France at the time, and somehow he became enamored with her as a boy or young man by hearing about her from someone.

I haven't! Interesting stuff!

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 25, 2023, 01:18:46 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 25, 2023, 12:53:39 PM
There are Buddhist nuns, though there are differences among branches. Only in Mahayana Buddhism could they be fully ordained (until modern times). For example, Wing Chun is a martial art created by Buddhist nun Ng Mui. There was a good film "Wing Chun" starring Michelle Yeoh that documented it. Though I wouldn't say nuns are a great signal of women's rights either way.

In general, Christianity was historically more open to women's participation than Judaism and some other prior Mediterranean religions, but it wasn't the leader in that. (Paul's exhortation that women should be silent in church comes to mind.) In northern Europe, women often lost rights as the countries were Christianized. Norse women, for example, had the right to divorce and own property as widows. The Laxdaela Saga was a pre-Christian story about the family of the powerful matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded.

I'd give historical Christianity a B+ on the world scale in rights of women.

Thanks! I don't know much about Norse religion and I'm glad to learn.

I remember watching Vikings and noticing that Norse women seemed to have more rights - but at the same time they seemed to be more accepting of murder, robbery, torture, human sacrifice and illiteracy, so I was always rooting for the Christians (I know this is beside the point but I think worth mentioning).

I eventually stopped watching for unrelated reasons (the plot armor was too strong for my tastes - I hear it gets better).

I like the idea of Norse matriarchs, seems fun for world-building.

About Buddhism, am I right in assuming Buddhist nuns/monasteries are a rarity compared to Christians/Catholicism?

Just to be clear, I want pointing to nuns (or pastors) as a sign of woman's rights, more of a sign of being able to participate in religious rites, become saints, etc. Or saints AND warriors like Joan of Arc.

No, Buddhist monks are certainly not a rarity compared to Christianity. From one report, nearly a quarter of Tibetan males were monks until recently - and there are 46,000 currently even under Chinese rule. And according to another article (and Wikipedia), there are 340,000 Buddhist monks in Japan alone currently. That's much more than Christian monastics in any similar-sized country.

I mean, Buddhist monks are the basis of the monk class in D&D. :-)

The population of Buddhist nuns seems to vary a lot - along with the rules for them. They seem to be non-existent in Japan, maybe because of Shinto influence - and are only 1/10th as common as monks in Tibet (though that is still substantial).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 26, 2023, 12:52:42 AM
I've yet to see a single RPG with a well built polytheism system.

Maybe Arrows of Indra? But it's not a custom built polytheism Pundit took the actual beliefs of India.

The Hârn Religion Team put together some pretty good articles that built out the already interesting polytheism in Hârn. That's the best example I can think of for an original fantasy religion.

https://www.lythia.com/hrt/

Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 26, 2023, 12:52:42 AM
I've yet to see a single RPG with a well built polytheism system.

Maybe Arrows of Indra? But it's not a custom built polytheism Pundit took the actual beliefs of India.

The Hârn Religion Team put together some pretty good articles that built out the already interesting polytheism in Hârn. That's the best example I can think of for an original fantasy religion.

https://www.lythia.com/hrt/

Thanks, will read it.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 25, 2023, 09:50:09 PM
I'm talking about how the cosmology of your world is extremely important for setting a definition of 'good' and 'evil'. What realms there are, what happens after you die, what gods there are (if any), etc.

Ok, I just find your way of introducing it rather difficult follow.

I love the idea of exploring different moral structures and the clash of different moral codes.  I don't think that religions and gods have to be central to this.  I fully recognize that religion can be a very real part of why and how a moral code is structured in a certain way.

One of the things I like to do in my own world building is introducing a belief system in a god that doesn't exist.  Actually, I has to introduced multiple said religions in my fantasy setting, some with magic that's misinterpreted as divine power, some with no reality at all, and one that has a high powered immortal that is not a god and not happy being worshiped as one.   

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 26, 2023, 03:12:48 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 26, 2023, 12:52:42 AM
I've yet to see a single RPG with a well built polytheism system.

Maybe Arrows of Indra? But it's not a custom built polytheism Pundit took the actual beliefs of India.

The Hârn Religion Team put together some pretty good articles that built out the already interesting polytheism in Hârn. That's the best example I can think of for an original fantasy religion.

https://www.lythia.com/hrt/

Thanks, will read it.

Cool. Do you have any Hârn knowledge? The HRT articles are a scattering of essays that assume knowledge of the base Hârnmaster Religion. The PDF for that is available online:

https://sggamma2.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/cg4401-harnmaster-religion.pdf

Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 04:49:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 26, 2023, 03:12:48 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 01:36:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 26, 2023, 12:52:42 AM
I've yet to see a single RPG with a well built polytheism system.

Maybe Arrows of Indra? But it's not a custom built polytheism Pundit took the actual beliefs of India.

The Hârn Religion Team put together some pretty good articles that built out the already interesting polytheism in Hârn. That's the best example I can think of for an original fantasy religion.

https://www.lythia.com/hrt/

Thanks, will read it.

Cool. Do you have any Hârn knowledge? The HRT articles are a scattering of essays that assume knowledge of the base Hârnmaster Religion. The PDF for that is available online:

https://sggamma2.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/cg4401-harnmaster-religion.pdf

Thanks, no I don't, so now I have more to read.