Equal rights. The dignity of all human beings.

Those ideas are not self evident but come from two separate religions- Buddhism and Christianity. I'll be focusing on the latter as I know more about it (and more RPG designers are Westerners than non-Westerners).

I'll attempt to list every modern western value and show how it comes from Christianity's specific theological tenets. This may or may not be correct. I know only slightly more about Christianity than the average person.

Equality: All are made in the Image of the supreme deity with no equals or greaters. Poor, rich, sick, healthy, strong, weak.

Mercy: Supreme deity, who is goodness, is merciful. Therefore being merciful is good and being cruel (the opposite) is bad.

Absolute-non killing: Supreme deity said no killing (killing is thus always bad).

Humility: humans were once perfect, but fell from an ideal state, therefore they will never be perfect ever and there is nothing to be proud of

Envy is bad: no reason to be jealous of another, you're equal

Homosexuality is bad: Supreme deity said sex with another of your sex is bad.

Bestiality is bad: Supreme deity said having sex with animals is bad

Crossdressing is bad: Supreme deity said so.

The list goes on, but the important thing to take away is that if you remove the supreme deity you remove every single justification for Christian morality, just as removing karma removes every justification for Hindu or Buddhist morality.

Of course, being fictional worlds, gameworlds may have any sort of excuse as to why the sentiment that all people are equal isn't the height of delusion. For instance, it could be a law of the universe that all humans are equal, and that mercy and helping the weak are valued over strength. So your level 20 fighter might not make it into a good afterlife if he dies in battle, but the level 0 peasant might if he donates to charity, if he helps those even worse off than him, etc. Gameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

Caveat: I'm a huge fan of faith but a huge non-fan of organised religion. I'm also an anthropologist/archaeologist by training, so dipping into the cultures of others kind of comes with the territory. If I get glib in some of the responses, my apologies.

Is Christian morality required, though? There is, after all, humanism as a counterpoint even if it gets murky. Furthermore, as you note there are a bunch of people that don't have Christianity as their defining ethical framework so... yeah.

I mean, even the Ten Commandments can be stripped of the theism and just become really great advice for not being murdered by your neighbour (or murdering them). And, arguably, the remaining ones are about empowering the priests.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMEquality: All are made in the Image of the supreme deity with no equals or greaters. Poor, rich, sick, healthy, strong, weak.

But that's not how it works (or worked). Look at how the Christian Bible changed when it came through Rome and women were further marginalised to conform to the dominant social/political paradigm. It's also worth pointing out that Christianity was subversive to the (Roman) Empire, so the kind of shenanigans that Constantine likely played should not be underestimated.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMMercy: Supreme deity, who is goodness, is merciful. Therefore being merciful is good and being cruel (the opposite) is bad.

Except when they're pagans/heaths, in which case it's okay to do the choppy-choppy on them. Or people on Death Row in the American judicial system.

My point being that religion tends to be very... ah, flexible on the subject of killing and torture when it is the "other" in the seat of condemnation.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMHumility: humans were once perfect, but fell from an ideal state, therefore they will never be perfect ever and there is nothing to be proud of

Which, of course, was due to that pesky woman. See the Roman answer.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMEnvy is bad: no reason to be jealous of another, you're equal

Let's chalk this one up to aspirational?

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMHomosexuality is bad: Supreme deity said sex with another of your sex is bad.

The Bible is, I believe, not clear on these matters while understandably being texts based upon the mores of their time. (There's probably a lecture about ethnography and transference to be had here, too, but I'm no Biblical scholar.)

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMBestiality is bad: Supreme deity said having sex with animals is bad

I'm not even going to look up any arguments about this. Just euwww.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMCrossdressing is bad: Supreme deity said so.

To be fair, the Bible also said that women cutting their hair short was deceptive and, thus, evil. How dare they appear to be a man!

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMGameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

I'm truly having a problem of how this is circling back to gaming. Could you help me out? I mean, clearly it's a thorny issue when it comes down to, say, jurisprudence and cultural mores, especially in a nominally pluralistic (or at least "multi-cultural") society. So are you talking about using Christianity as a de facto "norm" and a method of constructing non-standard societies for roleplaying games?

Quote from: Kage2020 on October 24, 2023, 10:41:09 PM
Caveat: I'm a huge fan of faith but a huge non-fan of organised religion. I'm also an anthropologist/archaeologist by training, so dipping into the cultures of others kind of comes with the territory. If I get glib in some of the responses, my apologies.

Is Christian morality required, though? There is, after all, humanism as a counterpoint even if it gets murky. Furthermore, as you note there are a bunch of people that don't have Christianity as their defining ethical framework so... yeah.

I mean, even the Ten Commandments can be stripped of the theism and just become really great advice for not being murdered by your neighbour (or murdering them). And, arguably, the remaining ones are about empowering the priests.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMEquality: All are made in the Image of the supreme deity with no equals or greaters. Poor, rich, sick, healthy, strong, weak.

But that's not how it works (or worked). Look at how the Christian Bible changed when it came through Rome and women were further marginalised to conform to the dominant social/political paradigm. It's also worth pointing out that Christianity was subversive to the (Roman) Empire, so the kind of shenanigans that Constantine likely played should not be underestimated.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMMercy: Supreme deity, who is goodness, is merciful. Therefore being merciful is good and being cruel (the opposite) is bad.

Except when they're pagans/heaths, in which case it's okay to do the choppy-choppy on them. Or people on Death Row in the American judicial system.

My point being that religion tends to be very... ah, flexible on the subject of killing and torture when it is the "other" in the seat of condemnation.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMHumility: humans were once perfect, but fell from an ideal state, therefore they will never be perfect ever and there is nothing to be proud of

Which, of course, was due to that pesky woman. See the Roman answer.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMEnvy is bad: no reason to be jealous of another, you're equal

Let's chalk this one up to aspirational?

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMHomosexuality is bad: Supreme deity said sex with another of your sex is bad.

The Bible is, I believe, not clear on these matters while understandably being texts based upon the mores of their time. (There's probably a lecture about ethnography and transference to be had here, too, but I'm no Biblical scholar.)

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMBestiality is bad: Supreme deity said having sex with animals is bad

I'm not even going to look up any arguments about this. Just euwww.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMCrossdressing is bad: Supreme deity said so.

To be fair, the Bible also said that women cutting their hair short was deceptive and, thus, evil. How dare they appear to be a man!

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PMGameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

I'm truly having a problem of how this is circling back to gaming. Could you help me out? I mean, clearly it's a thorny issue when it comes down to, say, jurisprudence and cultural mores, especially in a nominally pluralistic (or at least "multi-cultural") society. So are you talking about using Christianity as a de facto "norm" and a method of constructing non-standard societies for roleplaying games?

Thanks for the correction! I will say several things before I address your main claims.

a1. No, it isn't, you could use Buddhist morality. Or Hindu morality. Or confucianism. Or taoism. But I know less about that. There are people who use moral systems derived from Christianity (see Humanism is a Heresy on Unherd), but the problem is those systems lost their justification.
a2. the problem is that the ten commandments aren't even required to make a civilization (see China, Persia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, the Celts, the Germans, the Japanese), rather the base assumptions that the Ten Commandments make boil down to 'do not steal', 'do not kill (without good reason)', 'don't have random sex whenever you want' are required. Those are self evident. Everything else? Not so much.
a3. I'm agnostic.

okay now to tackle your main responses. anything that needs more explanation, I'll respond with

1. yup, an example of people bending the religion just to fit preexisting morality and for their own goals. this doesn't change the fact that Christianity was more egalitarian than most other religions (Jesus literally says the meek will inherit the earth).
I mentioned it because it's the basis of Enlightenment attempts to make a international standard of human rights.
2. another example of people bending their religion, Christianity is explicitly against this but hey that won't stop the king from doing what he does.
3. def a source of misogyny, yup. Christianity was actually the least misogynistic religion from what I read.
4. mhm
5. this is where I agree with the bible
6. the bible explicitly says to put homosexuals to death, and that homosexual desires are unnatural
7. did not know, TIL
8. I'm talking about making worlds with different moralities based on the makeup of the world. Religious morality has several theological and cosmological underpinnings supporting each of its beliefs. Change the gods, change the mechanics of the afterlife, change morality.

This only applies in high fantasy worlds, low fantasy worlds are excusable (you can totally have a world with something like the rise of Christianity.)

The morality of Christianity can change a lot from century to century. For example, kings had power because they were anointed by God and you were most certainly not equal to them. Sermons were held in Latin because knowledge and power were only for those good enough for it. This was part and parcel of the feudal system, power held by the few, until the printing press/gunpowder ended that. Once people fled to lands where bible translations weren't crimes(because peasants couldn't be trusted to properly interpret the bible), then you saw the great reformations in the 1600's and the start of large civil right movements: suffrage, abolition, temperance, native American rights, etc. That still continues. Churches grappled with women as pastors(my mother was a pastor) and recently First United Methodist split into 2 denominations over gay/trans pastors. US churches wanted it, African churches did not.

I do find it interesting that certain types of religion dominated during different society tech levels. Maybe certain religions just click with the social needs of the time so those books/concepts thrive. Or maybe certain text ideology pushes and clicks technology forward(Pilgrims being heavily into school/reading kickstarted the US). But in RPG worlds, I'd expect religion to match the needs of society, either way. You can't farm and need to raid for food? Then you have war gods. You have an empire with complex trade, laws, etc. Then you probably have a learned priesthood that teaches obedience to power and social structure.

I'm not entirely clear on which bits you were replying to, which is a way of saying that if I muff it up? My bad. Just be forgiving if I couldn't connect the dots?

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PMa1. No, it isn't, you could use Buddhist morality. Or Hindu morality. Or confucianism. Or taoism. But I know less about that. There are people who use moral systems derived from Christianity (see Humanism is a Heresy on Unherd), but the problem is those systems lost their justification.

I would push back and suggest that "those systems lost their justification" only because it's a self referential thing. You lose justification because you don't justify it in theist terms, and if you don't frame it in theist terms, you have not justification.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PMa2. the problem is that the ten commandments aren't even required to make a civilization (see China, Persia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, the Celts, the Germans, the Japanese), rather the base assumptions that the Ten Commandments make boil down to 'do not steal', 'do not kill (without good reason)', 'don't have random sex whenever you want' are required. Those are self evident. Everything else? Not so much

I was suggesting that that the Ten Commandments, stripped of the priestly power plays, is really just a good set of guidelines for not getting murdered by your neighbours. Based upon what you typed, I think that you agree with this?

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM
a3. I'm agnostic.

As am I.

I just have a problem with organised religion and what it does, especially as it is normalised by modern religion. The Moral Majority and the evangelical right are examples of this in US terms.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM1. yup, an example of people bending the religion just to fit preexisting morality and for their own goals. this doesn't change the fact that Christianity was more egalitarian than most other religions (Jesus literally says the meek will inherit the earth).

This just argues to me that Christianity was a subversive cult aimed at getting the people without the power to buy into a religion that defined them as equals.

In RPG terms, of course, this is solid gold. I'm sure that you can find examples of cults like this in many systems. I'm kind of reminded of the invae in Shadowrun.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PMI mentioned it because it's the basis of Enlightenment attempts to make a international standard of human rights.

But politics plays into this, which is another way that this might directly segment into TTRPGs.

Consider the Founding period of America and see why this is an entire fuster cluck of aspiration vs. political expediency.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM2. another example of people bending their religion, Christianity is explicitly against this but hey that won't stop the king from doing what he does.

And it helps that the priestly class were also up to their eyes in politics, too.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM3. def a source of misogyny, yup. Christianity was actually the least misogynistic religion from what I read.

My knee-jerk here is that I doubt this statement, but I also have nothing to back it up.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM4. mhm

No idea.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM5. this is where I agree with the bible

Which you're totally allowed to do. It's hard interpreting meaning from documents that are thousands of years old without understanding the culture that wrote them.

FWIW, it's kind of why the US SCOTUS is problematic.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM6. the bible explicitly says to put homosexuals to death, and that homosexual desires are unnatural

That 2,000-year old text based upon different cultures? Leviticus is the worst.

I admit that I have nothing here other than, classically, there is a whole bunch of "do what you do rather than what I say" going on here in the period.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM8. I'm talking about making worlds with different moralities based on the cosmology of the world, instead of using DND pseudo-Christian morality in a setting with multiple gods (and thus doesn't fit the theological assumptions to make Christian morals justifiable). Basically my point is that if you want Christian 'All people are equal, give to the poor and the sick' ideals in NPCs or PCs meant to be good, make the world support that. Or not, play around with different cosmologies to end up with different morals.

This only applies in high fantasy worlds, low fantasy worlds are excusable (you can totally have a world with something like the rise of Christianity.)

I totally don't agree with your assessment of Christianity, but on the other hand I agree that having any reference point for world building is a good thing. If the lowest common denominator happens to be Christianity and people are exploring (for them) societies that don't have those views? Well, that sounds like a cool thing.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PM
Equal rights. The dignity of all human beings.

Those ideas are not self evident but come from two separate religions- Buddhism and Christianity. I'll be focusing on the latter as I know more about it (and more RPG designers are Westerners than non-Westerners).

I'll attempt to list every modern western value and show how it comes from Christianity's specific theological tenets. This may or may not be correct. I know only slightly more about Christianity than the average person.

Equality: All are made in the Image of the supreme deity with no equals or greaters. Poor, rich, sick, healthy, strong, weak.

Mercy: Supreme deity, who is goodness, is merciful. Therefore being merciful is good and being cruel (the opposite) is bad.

Absolute-non killing: Supreme deity said no killing (killing is thus always bad).

Humility: humans were once perfect, but fell from an ideal state, therefore they will never be perfect ever and there is nothing to be proud of

Envy is bad: no reason to be jealous of another, you're equal

Homosexuality is bad: Supreme deity said sex with another of your sex is bad.

Bestiality is bad: Supreme deity said having sex with animals is bad

Crossdressing is bad: Supreme deity said so.

The list goes on, but the important thing to take away is that if you remove the supreme deity you remove every single justification for Christian morality, just as removing karma removes every justification for Hindu or Buddhist morality.

Of course, being fictional worlds, gameworlds may have any sort of excuse as to why the sentiment that all people are equal isn't the height of delusion. For instance, it could be a law of the universe that all humans are equal, and that mercy and helping the weak are valued over strength. So your level 20 fighter might not make it into a good afterlife if he dies in battle, but the level 0 peasant might if he donates to charity, if he helps those even worse off than him, etc. Gameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

That is an... odd sampling of Christian thought.  While mostly correct, you'd be better off going with the 10 commandments or the seven capital virtues as an overview.  I'm a devout Christian but I've always been very reluctant to use actual Christianity in my game.  There's a wide variety of belief among Christians and I'd rather spend my time playing the game rather than arguing over what Christianity says about in game issues with my friends who have slightly different beliefs.  Also, it doesn't seem entirely respectful to include something that important as part of a silly game.  I'm not bothered when other folks do it, but I'm not comfortable doing it myself.  If religion is going to play a significant role in the game, I'd rather it be something fictional.

Quote from: Mishihari on October 25, 2023, 12:50:06 AMIf religion is going to play a significant role in the game, I'd rather it be something fictional.

Which, if you're going to put it in there, is probably the wisest way to handle it.

I think it's a fun exercise to imagine a setting without those values.

I have been trying to write such a setting myself, but you can look at books like Carcosa for inspiration.

We can think of something like ancient Greece or Rome, where glory is more important than humility (although "hubris" is also a thing).

But we could go further and make ALL Judeo-Christian values alien in this setting.

"Mercy" means nothing -  being vengeful makes you strong and feared.  People want to be allies because no one dares to be your enemy.

"Justice" is not a thing - protect your friends, destroy your enemies.

"Charity" doesn't exist - you bribe the rabble so it doesn't turn against you. And you throw the rebels to the lions.

"Chastity" is for the weak - kings have dozens of concubines, hundreds of sons.

"Faith" simply does not exist. All relations with "deities" are transactional.

PCs are neutral at best, fighting against evil for mostly selfish reasons (hatred, vengeance, etc.).

A world without such values would be a difficult place, to say the least.

EDIT: not that I think a polytheist or non-religious society cannot work... Some of the concepts of Christianity can be found in Greek philosophy, for example, including virtues, moderation, etc. Even monotheism is suggested in Plato. Marcus Aurelius writing show what a non-Christian virtuous man could look like, etc.

As an aside, I think is very odd to lay "homosexuality is bad" at the feet of Christianism.

This is a rule in Leviticus (pre-Christian), Christ is the one who said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone " about the adulteress.

AFAICT, homosexuality is a SIN in Christianism - similarly to HETEROSEXUAL adultery and fornication, prostitution, orgies, polygamy, divorce or even "natural marriage" between a man and a woman for all their lives.

Sure, the Greeks and Romans might be more accepting of SOME of  these practices*, but other monotheistic religions certainly aren't (although it looks like Judaism in contemporary, non-orthodox practice seems to be accepting of homosexuality, although I believe it is still technically a sin for them - I'm not an expert).

* Definitely not all; not multiple wives, not same-sex marriage, for Romans the passive role was not respected, Greeks seemed to accept sex with young males (i.e., not having masculine traits), and I'd guess married women didn't have the same liberties. I'm sure there were exceptions too. Again, not an expert.

Quote from: Kage2020 on October 25, 2023, 12:00:48 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM3. def a source of misogyny, yup. Christianity was actually the least misogynistic religion from what I read.

My knee-jerk here is that I doubt this statement, but I also have nothing to back it up.

Compare Christianity to Islam, Orthodox Judaism, etc.

In Hinduism there was a practice to burn widows alive when they became widows (Sati; could be murder or peer-aproved suicide).

Greeks and Romans, as mentioned above, gave some sexual freedom to males, but I doubt they extended the courtesy to females.

Women have limited participation in many religions; nuns seem to be particular to Christians (and even Woman pastors are mentioned in this thread). IIRC women couldn't even read the Torah. Under Jewish law, divorce can only be initiated by the man - the prohibition of divorce in Christianity is created in this situation.

I don't remember seeing woman Buddhist monks.

I'll leave it to someone else to mention the Islamic rules on women.

The most perfect non-divine human being that EVER existed is Catholicism, AFAIK, is the Virgin Mary; no saint surpasses her.

I know I sound biased but I'd love to hear information in other directions, if they are available (again, I'm certainly there is some cult or tribe somewhere that is ruled solely by polyandrous women somewhere, although I think it would be very exceptional); I'm always willing to learn.

Quote from: Mishihari on October 25, 2023, 12:50:06 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PM
Of course, being fictional worlds, gameworlds may have any sort of excuse as to why the sentiment that all people are equal isn't the height of delusion. For instance, it could be a law of the universe that all humans are equal, and that mercy and helping the weak are valued over strength. So your level 20 fighter might not make it into a good afterlife if he dies in battle, but the level 0 peasant might if he donates to charity, if he helps those even worse off than him, etc. Gameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

That is an... odd sampling of Christian thought.  While mostly correct, you'd be better off going with the 10 commandments or the seven capital virtues as an overview.  I'm a devout Christian but I've always been very reluctant to use actual Christianity in my game.  There's a wide variety of belief among Christians and I'd rather spend my time playing the game rather than arguing over what Christianity says about in game issues with my friends who have slightly different beliefs.  Also, it doesn't seem entirely respectful to include something that important as part of a silly game.

I'm also a Christian, but I often have Christianity in game. I like playing Call of Cthulhu and other historical and history-parallel worlds, for example. But I treat it as a game, and don't have a problem with the world differing from my understanding of real-world theology -- any more than I would demand that Star Wars conform to real-world science.

To MeganovaStella's point, I think most RPG worlds have religion that is paper-thin in terms of belief, but I find it interesting to put in bits of more developed religious belief. Religion is pretty central to being human, I feel, so it would be weird to not have belief. In my current campaign arc, for example, there are a bunch of people on the fringe who are being recruited into a rebellious and anti-sun-god cult. I also had a long-standing Call of Cthulhu character who went to being a devout Catholic, and considered all the anti-Christian stuff he was seeing to be a test of people's faith in the End Times.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 25, 2023, 11:53:42 AM

Quote from: Kage2020 on October 25, 2023, 12:00:48 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM3. def a source of misogyny, yup. Christianity was actually the least misogynistic religion from what I read.

My knee-jerk here is that I doubt this statement, but I also have nothing to back it up.

Compare Christianity to Islam, Orthodox Judaism, etc.

In Hinduism there was a practice to burn widows alive when they became widows (Sati; could be murder or peer-aproved suicide).

Greeks and Romans, as mentioned above, gave some sexual freedom to males, but I doubt they extended the courtesy to females.

Women have limited participation in many religions; nuns seem to be particular to Christians (and even Woman pastors are mentioned in this thread). IIRC women couldn't even read the Torah. Under Jewish law, divorce can only be initiated by the man - the prohibition of divorce in Christianity is created in this situation.

I don't remember seeing woman Buddhist monks.

There are Buddhist nuns, though there are differences among branches. Only in Mahayana Buddhism could they be fully ordained (until modern times). For example, Wing Chun is a martial art created by Buddhist nun Ng Mui. There was a good film "Wing Chun" starring Michelle Yeoh that documented it. Though I wouldn't say nuns are a great signal of women's rights either way.

In general, Christianity was historically more open to women's participation than Judaism and some other prior Mediterranean religions, but it wasn't the leader in that. (Paul's exhortation that women should be silent in church comes to mind.) In northern Europe, women often lost rights as the countries were Christianized. Norse women, for example, had the right to divorce and own property as widows. The Laxdaela Saga was a pre-Christian story about the family of the powerful matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded.

I'd give historical Christianity a B+ on the world scale in rights of women.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 08:21:56 PM
Equal rights. The dignity of all human beings.

Those ideas are not self evident but come from two separate religions- Buddhism and Christianity. I'll be focusing on the latter as I know more about it (and more RPG designers are Westerners than non-Westerners).

I'll attempt to list every modern western value and show how it comes from Christianity's specific theological tenets. This may or may not be correct. I know only slightly more about Christianity than the average person.

Equality: All are made in the Image of the supreme deity with no equals or greaters. Poor, rich, sick, healthy, strong, weak.

Mercy: Supreme deity, who is goodness, is merciful. Therefore being merciful is good and being cruel (the opposite) is bad.

Absolute-non killing: Supreme deity said no killing (killing is thus always bad).

Humility: humans were once perfect, but fell from an ideal state, therefore they will never be perfect ever and there is nothing to be proud of

Envy is bad: no reason to be jealous of another, you're equal

Homosexuality is bad: Supreme deity said sex with another of your sex is bad.

Bestiality is bad: Supreme deity said having sex with animals is bad

Crossdressing is bad: Supreme deity said so.

The list goes on, but the important thing to take away is that if you remove the supreme deity you remove every single justification for Christian morality, just as removing karma removes every justification for Hindu or Buddhist morality.

Of course, being fictional worlds, gameworlds may have any sort of excuse as to why the sentiment that all people are equal isn't the height of delusion. For instance, it could be a law of the universe that all humans are equal, and that mercy and helping the weak are valued over strength. So your level 20 fighter might not make it into a good afterlife if he dies in battle, but the level 0 peasant might if he donates to charity, if he helps those even worse off than him, etc. Gameworlds without this are left with an incoherent system if they try to include 21st century ethics.

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.  Are you trying to clarify a moral code, clarify how to implement a moral code,  or contrast a moral code?

It kind of feels like an attempt to start and argument over religion couched as a discussion on RPG world building.

   My understanding with the no killing is that is not and has never been so.   MURDER is prohibited but killing for war or self defense is more than allowed.

Quote from: jhkim on October 25, 2023, 12:53:39 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 25, 2023, 11:53:42 AM

Quote from: Kage2020 on October 25, 2023, 12:00:48 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 24, 2023, 11:21:52 PM3. def a source of misogyny, yup. Christianity was actually the least misogynistic religion from what I read.

My knee-jerk here is that I doubt this statement, but I also have nothing to back it up.

Compare Christianity to Islam, Orthodox Judaism, etc.

In Hinduism there was a practice to burn widows alive when they became widows (Sati; could be murder or peer-aproved suicide).

Greeks and Romans, as mentioned above, gave some sexual freedom to males, but I doubt they extended the courtesy to females.

Women have limited participation in many religions; nuns seem to be particular to Christians (and even Woman pastors are mentioned in this thread). IIRC women couldn't even read the Torah. Under Jewish law, divorce can only be initiated by the man - the prohibition of divorce in Christianity is created in this situation.

I don't remember seeing woman Buddhist monks.

There are Buddhist nuns, though there are differences among branches. Only in Mahayana Buddhism could they be fully ordained (until modern times). For example, Wing Chun is a martial art created by Buddhist nun Ng Mui. There was a good film "Wing Chun" starring Michelle Yeoh that documented it. Though I wouldn't say nuns are a great signal of women's rights either way.

In general, Christianity was historically more open to women's participation than Judaism and some other prior Mediterranean religions, but it wasn't the leader in that. (Paul's exhortation that women should be silent in church comes to mind.) In northern Europe, women often lost rights as the countries were Christianized. Norse women, for example, had the right to divorce and own property as widows. The Laxdaela Saga was a pre-Christian story about the family of the powerful matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded.

I'd give historical Christianity a B+ on the world scale in rights of women.

Thanks! I don't know much about Norse religion and I'm glad to learn.

I remember watching Vikings and noticing that Norse women seemed to have more rights - but at the same time they seemed to be more accepting of murder, robbery, torture, human sacrifice and illiteracy, so I was always rooting for the Christians (I know this is beside the point but I think worth mentioning).

I eventually stopped watching for unrelated reasons (the plot armor was too strong for my tastes - I hear it gets better).

I like the idea of Norse matriarchs, seems fun for world-building.

About Buddhism, am I right in assuming Buddhist nuns/monasteries are a rarity compared to Christians/Catholicism?

Just to be clear, I want pointing to nuns (or pastors) as a sign of woman's rights, more of a sign of being able to participate in religious rites, become saints, etc. Or saints AND warriors like Joan of Arc.