Quote from: CarlD.;1037646What is Under my Skin?

Emily Care Boss' game about romantic crossings and commitment. cf. http://www.blackgreengames.com/shop/under-my-skin-pdf

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037647Maybe I wasn't clear: I was talking about playing such game at cons with players who you have just met.

Yes. This was a game played at DunDraCon, using randomized selection of anyone who tried to sign up for it. I knew some of the people who got in because I've been a regular at the con and know a lot of people there, but the game was played with some people who had never met before.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601Women are no less shitty than men but the power structure still is tilted heavily toward men.

This is where you're completely wrong.  It's not tilted to anyone but women.  Always has been.  They may not be ON the thrones of power, but they have always held ultimate power

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601What you do not seem to grasp is that one woman making an accusation does not end the career of the man..

We can't grasp it because you've been duped into believing a lie.  Most people will believe this lie.  The lie is that women have always been oppressed.  Well, sadly, the only part of that is true is when you consider that men were equally oppressed and often at the same time, for the same reason.

It's a social class problem, not a gender one.  Never has been, but to make it easier on everyone else, because men have always been disposable, they frame it by screaming 'OH THE WIMMINS, we gotta save the poor, defenseless WIMMINS!'

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1037616http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article122429824.html

Here's another one, older but she utterly destroyed these two.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/woman-18-falsely-accused-football-players-rape-cops-article-1.2979555

And most of the time, they don't face charges when the crime has been proven false.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037421I have said this before, and I'll say it again, Tabletop gaming shouldn't be about sex, it should be about gaming. All the folks that are getting that confused have some problems or hangups about sex, and are unable to properly channel their sexual energy. They insist on bringing it to the gaming table with them. Some people, ...myself included, find that raw unchanneled energy in a gaming environment offensive.  

And some people, myself included, believe that this is tantamount to looking to be offended about something;).

QuoteFor those of you calling it prude... It's not about prudishness, it's about love, ...instead of lust ...or rutting. Can you dig that?

I get what you're saying.
I just find it doesn't apply to today's age, where lots of people just don't consider love to be an important value. We're not allowed to impose our values on them, BTW:).

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037451I can see now why you are having troubles with comprehending this. It's in the cultural context.  With Gaming and gamers there is no difference, at least not in Europe. The problems we are describing and trying to grapple with are uniquely American. When you are talking about American Gamers though, there is a whole different series of events occurring. I'm sure the Robbie Burns party was great. You got drunk, you got laid, you talked into the early hours of the morning, and then decided to meet again... all good and very romantic. If that was all that happened here at gaming conventions, I'd be all good with that.

The problem is, ...here in the United States, that happens extremely rarely. There is a disparity in the relationships between men and women here. The best and most telling statistic, is that from a medical standpoint, the current age group that is most depressed, and least likely to maintain social relationships is the 18-22 age group. In addition, that is also the group that feels most alone, or lonely. In addition there is an suicide epidemic occurring amongst younger single males here in the United States. Youngsters aged 18-35 are four times more likely to attempt to commit suicide, than my generation was. There are some deep and persistent underlying social problems that is creating this crisis, and it has not been getting alot of attention in the media, I'm pretty sure there's a link connecting all the mass shootings and ultraviolence, including domestic unrest here as well, however haven't personally been able to ID a single cause or source of this angst, just yet. It is very similar to the dark times that occurred in Germany from the mid 1920's right up until the nazi takeover in 1933. It is very much the same kind of social unrest that was occurring with young people in Germany back then, happening here now.

I'll be honest, I have no dog in the whole prohibiting other people from flirting and hooking up. If that is what they are really doing. If they are just going to break up later though, and fling poo at each other, why the hell do I have to suffer through all that drama at my gaming table?

So it's not really a desire to control or prohibit others from flirting and having fun, its more of a desire to be able to continue to enjoy my games without all the retarded bullshjt like this occurring, because people here in the States don't know how to maintain healthy relationships, ...you dig? You grokking this now?

As an European, I want you to confirm whether you really trying to tell us gamers in the USA are less emotionally mature than elsewhere. Or were you talking about people in the USA, fullstop, since you went to talk about general societal statistics?
And thus they shouldn't be allowed to progress from a social activity (like gaming) to romance, regarding of mutual attraction? Because they're going to fail anyhow, and thus spoil your gaming time:D?

I'm really, really hoping you're not saying that. Or, if that's what you're saying, that you're wrong about gamers/people in the USA;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1037668I'm really, really hoping you're not saying that. Or, if that's what you're saying, that you're wrong about gamers/people in the USA;).

I really wish I was wrong on this, however gaming in public spaces has changed significantly in the last couple of decades, and it seems like event staff / publishers just can't keep their minds/hands off each other, and their guests, and focus on the games on the table instead of the other game that is going on in their heads, an unasked for additional game i would add, that is ruining the tabletop games for everyone else, ...by the way.

I also believe firmly that this at the very least questionable behavior is not limited to just Independent Game Publishers, and is prevalent with some of the staff from larger gaming companies, which are currently being deliberately excluded from being in the spotlight of the general public. It seems to me, that the larger gaming companies are gaining market share at the expense of the independent gaming companies, and I find this especially disconcerting, because the Indy people are actually not being convicted of any actual crime, their names are just being dragged through the mud.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037618And those were public in the press and revealed to be false.

The typical corporate case is not reported anywhere and HR usually does not reveal any details.

The two cases you cited are the rare cases where there was a false accusation and one of them was more a reporter problem (Rolling Stone) than anything else.

There are not women routinely making false accusations and it is not costless for them to make an accusation in the first place. In theory we are all gamers here and we should understand rules and probabilities. If we can absorb all the details of a made up background we should be able to parse the statistics for these types of cases.

http://allthatsinteresting.com/student-accused-taxi-driver
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-23645807
https://nypost.com/2017/04/05/passenger-from-hell-threatens-to-accuse-uber-driver-of-rape/
https://qz.com/985832/uber-drivers-are-filming-their-riders-with-dash-cams-to-protect-against-bad-reviews-and-false-accusations/

How many of these men would be in jail if they didn't have footage of their false accusations? At the risk of making a prediction, I think that the ubiquity of cell phones that take video footage are going to put a serious dent in the idea that false rape accusations are rare. But probably at the same time result in more evidence and therefore more punishments for the false accusers.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1037661Here's another one, older but she utterly destroyed these two.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/woman-18-falsely-accused-football-players-rape-cops-article-1.2979555

And most of the time, they don't face charges when the crime has been proven false.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/young-womans-agony-over-mum-10512152

I saw this one last night. Double suicide. First the man, then his mother.

ENWorld seems as lost as TBP to any sort of reasoned discussion, but maybe this place will be better.

https://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2018/05/05/rpg-ttrpg-more-on-sean-patrick-fannon-con-community-issues/

 felt the need to comment on a forum, but me and forums (or at least moderators) don't tend to get on, however reasonable I'm being at the time. So I'm putting a copy here since I want to preserve what I've written, just in case.

Update: Seems this was a good idea and that ENWorld is also lost!

"Welcome back. Probably should have checked the rules before trotting out derogatory terms like "social justice warrior" and "virtue signalling". Don't post in the thread again, please."

Oy gevalt... the below was me being PAINFULLY diplomatic and careful.

***

Eh, probably not a good idea to stick my neck out and make this my 're-entry' to this forum, but what the heck. There's a heck of a lot of stuff here to address and talk about.

I can't say that Sean and I got on and, in fact, I probably have every reason to celebrate his 'fall from grace'. As a member of the extreme end of 'social justice warriors,' he's in good company having had this happen though. It's almost a trope. He helped the campaign to have at least one of my games pulled from sale – and yes, that is a form of censorship according to the ACLU and I'm sure other people can point to other well-meaning misdeeds on his behalf. That seems to be something that has been mentioned in this thread.

From what I can decipher of what he's said, this seems roughly analogous to the accusations made against Lawrence Krauss, which read as socially awkward misunderstandings and cringeworthy obliviousness. Social awkwardness and people on the spectrum may be something both the skeptic community and the gaming community have in common, which could account for the bacchanal atmosphere some 'Nerd Proms' descend into.

Even though I've got a good reason to personally dislike him on that basis, I'm just not prepared to throw him under the bus any more than I would anyone else. There are accusations, but that doesn't make them facts. As others have pointed out we have a legal principle of 'innocent until proven guilty'. Others have suggested that this is somehow a bad principle or limited to a purely legal context. That isn't the case, it's a basic logical principle – the burden of proof – which is why it's utilised in legal cases as well as science, and why it's a good general rule for life. Sure, personal bias and relationships can get in the way, but that's precisely why we have processes in both these spheres to encourage objectivity.

We are, however, operating in the social sphere and it seems unlikely that any legal action will result from this. So we have a largely anonymous set of claims against a publicly identified figure, with no way for most of us to confirm whether or not any of it has happened. Furthermore, he's apparently not allowed to present his side of things without being censored. This hardly seems fair or just, though one can certainly appreciate why it would worry people for accusers to be identified. Ideally, this would be handled by the courts and both accuser and accused would remain anonymous until such time as a judgement was rendered.

The world is less than ideal though and we must make do.

Part of that 'making do' should be extending the benefit of the doubt. Accusations such as this, true or false, ruin people. As little as a couple of tweets can see people lose their relationships, jobs, future prospects and end up with an internet profile that renders them socially toxic and unemployable for years to come. This happens whether or not they've actually done anything at all. Surely we can agree that this isn't a good way to proceed? To – metaphorically – lynch someone, purely because an accusation is made? That can lead to some very dark places.

By all means take precautions, investigate further, but don't lose sight of the principle of justice and fairness in the pursuit of social 'justice'.

Contrary to what some likely think, I'm all for social justice in terms of treating people equally and fairly. Ironically it's these left/lib values that are the very things that have lead me to oppose the ideologically drive 'regressive left' which seems to be in full voice throughout this thread. That doesn't mean I'm on the side of the populist right, the Jordan Petersons and their ilk either, certainly not on the side of them 'they're all lying' kind of people in this thread.

That said, it's worth pointing out that this kind of thing isn't unknown, certainly in activist circles. There was collusion and plotting in the case against Gregory Allen Elliot and, more sinisterly, in the Jian Ghomeshi trial – both instances in Canada. I'm most aware of issues in Canada thanks to Diana Davison's work with The Lighthouse Project. The fact of the matter is that we really have no idea how many accusations are false. Estimates vary horrendously and while people rightly decry how few sexual misconduct or rape cases are prosecuted, the same is true – perhaps even more so – for false accusations. They're hard to prosecute for many of the same reasons that sex crimes are hard to prosecute, with additional political issues not unlike the ones that have caused problems with prosecuting grooming gangs in the UK.

It's anywhere from that tiny percentage we're aware of, up to the full number of claims that are never prosecuted. Neither extreme is likely, but anecdotally police officers and investigators state that it's higher than we might think. Still that's colloquial and we shouldn't put too much weight on that either.

It's a conundrum. How do we address the clear issues that there are in prosecuting these cases while still providing due process and consideration for the accused? That's a problem more for the courts than us, but not prosecuting witchhunts also seems like a no-brainer. 'Trust but verify' rather than 'Listen and believe' as we used to say in GG. Speaking of which, it was brought up in the context of supposedly being a hate movement, which it was not and actual evidence exists contrary to that belief. That just goes to show that even evidence won't convince some people.

Some people want to address it by lowering the standard of evidence, but the advent of genetic forensics has cleared a lot of people who were convicted on the basis of testimony and accusations. Lowering the standard of evidence doesn't seem like a good idea and that does mean that guilty people are going to go free. Blackstone's Formulation remains a useful ethical guide and it was rather horrifying to see people in this thread decrying it and being willing to see innocent people jailed, or worse.

Others, even more horrifyingly, have tried to get things shifted to an inquisitorial system of justice in sexual cases. Why this is a terrible idea should be clear to anyone.

So there doesn't appear to be any good solutions to that problem, but that's one for the legal systems and the courts. I would suggest that we – as individuals – give the benefit of the doubt and try to take some of the heat out of this febrile atmosphere, but I don't see that kind of logic going over too well with many people. In fact, it – and much of this post most likely – will be taken as something that it isn't. A protection of abusers, or an attack on the (allegedly) abused. That's how bad things have gotten. Not to mention that often the people you have to defend the rights of, are unpleasant. They might be creepy, they might be fascists, they might be paedophiles, but even genuinely, provenly repugnant people still have human rights.

As to conventions? I don't think anti-harassment policies are a good idea. I think we already have a societal one called 'the law'. This doesn't mean I'm pro-harassment, and I have had to intercede myself at events in the past. I am, however, concerned about these policies as many of them seem to be ideologically driven and to 'Trojan Horse' agendas and censorship. I've attended more than one convention which, if the policy were strictly enforced, would have had no sales room and no games. Many of these policies derive from the pattern on the Geek Feminism Wiki, and this has caused problems elsewhere, let alone gaming cons. I am very pleased to see that Dragonmeet has walked back their version some since the last one I attended. Still, they seem completely unnecessary and very open for abuse. All it takes is one person to be a jerk and either the con staff will be outed as hypocrites, or things will go horribly wrong.

Between the law and looking out for each other, I think we have all the tools we need. Having anti-harassment policies seems pointless and, I hate to say it since the term gets abused, but it seems like 'virtue signalling'. I mean, they're even measuring skirts at PAX now. It's like we've gone back in time 70 years, not forward, and yet it's being driven by people who call themselves 'progressive'. It's all rather confusing to a grumpy old leftie libertine.

Of course, these things all move so fast that something else may have come out even while I was writing this, but I think there's enough there that's generally applicable to the broader issue I think.

To reiterate, because people tend to be a bit hard of understanding on these issues and to infer things that aren't said.

These are serious issues, which I take seriously.
Sexual crimes and misdemeanours are horrible and a strong stance should be taken against them.
Accusations should be taken seriously.
I don't think the current witchhunt atmosphere is productive or useful and may have gone too far the other way.
Justice and fairness demand we consider people innocent until proven guilty, even in our personal lives.
People shouldn't be ruined on the basis of a mere accusation alone.
These things are business for the courts.
Antiharassment policies are unnecessary, which doesn't mean I accept or condone harassment.
Hopefully people will address the points.

Now that was well said.

Grim. You called Jordan Peterson a Right Wing Populist!
After this crime, what forgiveness?

Quote from: GRIM;1037716ENWorld seems as lost as TBP to any sort of reasoned discussion..

They disgust me. I'm sorry for all the many years I spent there.

I especially liked the very last (as of now) post: Have you ever interrupted a woman? Then you're a harasser. Have you ever looked at a woman's cleavage? Then you're a harasser.

You'll notice he was mentioned in a different part of the sentence and separated. I think he's a snake oil salesman, but not a right wing populist.

Quote from: S'mon;1037723They disgust me. I'm sorry for all the many years I spent there.

I especially liked the very last (as of now) post: Have you ever interrupted a woman? Then you're a harasser. Have you ever looked at a woman's cleavage? Then you're a harasser.

Yes, that was... precious. It's twisting my gut not being allowed to reply

Quote from: GRIM;1037725You'll notice he was mentioned in a different part of the sentence and separated. I think he's a snake oil salesman, but not a right wing populist.

Well, fair enough I guess. Apology accepted.

Why does this seem to pop up only in creative endeavors?  Some creative acts badly and it's the end of the world.  I'm sure as shit someone in the supply chain that brought me my Coke Zero was as asshole, but I don't blame Coke.

Nicely said Grim. I am not checking news or posts out there any longer. I'm pretty soured from the whole experience.