Quote from: jhkim;1039741Steven - I almost never read marketing material.  I'll read reviews for stuff that I'm interested in.  Is there marketing material that says some game is all about sexuality that you're referring to here?

Maybe "Buzz" is a better word than "marketing" for what I mean.  Marketing material is too focused.  I'm talking what gets touted about making some product different, what gets said in interviews, what early reviews want to focus upon, etc.  We aren't even talking a fully reasoned filter here, but a time-saver.  I can't exhaustively review every product, knowing that I'm interested in very few.  Which is why later reports could change my mind about a particular product--if I'm given a good reason to check it again.

I think you are trying to create some kind of data-driven case for why people are annoyed by this stuff, and why you think they are unreasonable in doing so.  I'm telling you that people are forced to make some decisions based on limited or poor data, lest they waste time on something that isn't that important to them.  It's not strictly analogous to, "Cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that you were never reasoned into in the first place."  Though that's true enough.  It's rather that there is a minimum threshold of credibility before someone is going to listen to reasons to form a reasoned opinion, when their gut is already telling them that X fits a pattern of "Things like this in the past have not been worth my time."  

That's really the problem with "virtue signaling".  It's not the borderline hypocrisy that is necessarily the problem (or disingenuous aspect, if you prefer).  That's just a minor annoyance.  Rather, for the filter affect I'm talking about, it's more that, "Hey, you've got limited time to tell me why I should pay attention to this product, and this is what you choose to talk about?"  Similar to when a trailer for a movie is obviously trying to be funny, but the jokes aren't all that.  This was the best you had to show us?   OK, then.  Conversely, if the product is making a serious attempt to engage with some aspect of sexuality (or weird magic tech or some other niche in RPGs), I'd expect someone to be able to talk more sensibly than a flyby virtue signal or the equivalent.  If your product really is about X, that should come out clearly.  I'd be pretty annoyed, for example, if someone was "virtue signaling" about how their game had returned to a classical myth feel, rejected post-modern sensibilities, and all it really had on inspection was an NPC spouting a few platitudes that had surface-only classical myth references.

Suspected virtue signals--of any type--tell me that the person making them is willing to waste my time.

Quote from: jhkim;1039640I think there is significant disagreement about having gay NPCs in D&D play. Some responses from this thread below show several differing views on the subject -

I'm just trying to keep the discussion on topic before it gets booted to the Pundit Forum. I do think there's a lot to talk about this particular point - but you know... threadjacking.

Quote from: jhkim;1039692I don't own any D&D modules that include homosexual characters, though there is one mention in a setting book I have (see below). I have Blue Rose, plus some modern RPGs like Cyberpunk. Even if there exist some badly-written modules with homosexual characters, though, that doesn't prove that it's wrong to have such characters. It just says that they should be better written.

I'm not sure I do either. Most of my modules are 1e or 2e. A Setting Book is *different*. Because it implies something about the setting itself. Here let me demonstrate a Fantasy Overton Window to you without using homosexuality as a distraction...

Classic Forgotten Realms 1e used the bog-standard AD&D races as the starting PC races - but even then they made specific distinctions to their populations in specific areas to paint the status-quo. It largely adhered to a quasi-Medieval Tolkienesque flavored kitchen-sink analog world with magic. Elves were on the decline, they had a few strongholds, dwarves had theirs, halflings had theirs, and it was pretty much vastly human. The status-quo was established.

This is not to say that other more exotic races did not exist. Nor more exotic cultures of humanity. But it painted a very Sword & Sorcery vibe to the early days of the Realms (Greybox) that reminded me of the early days of Greyhawk. As the years went on, more and more products put out more playable races, and later editions of the setting that paralleled later editions of the rules started ham-fisting more of these exotic races into places that, in some cases, literally and magically appeared overnight. In game terms the world no longer even resembled the older more established context. In fact the later editions of the game assume everything is fair play as a conceit.

Whether it is implicit or explicit is irrelevant. Because that's how new players come to me with it - to the point where it's rare for a new player to play one of the established AD&D races by choice. I corroborate this with the plethora of online games that have that freakshow atmosphere. There is certainly little attempt in-setting to deal with this... why do you think that is? Let me be more clear - the reason for it is the same reason that we have a thread about "Orcs being analogs to blacks and if you kill them you're racist." It's the same reason I was permabanned for defending Paizo for being called a racist company for perpetuating that "stereotype" from the Big Purple (despite having been a member of the forums since 2001.)

One could be a lazy thinker and say "Ten, dude you're being an asshole - what's wrong with having a pack of Tieflings and Aasimar in the same group with some Genasi and half-drow in the middle of Westgate?" The answer is simple: there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is there is no context to it. I run sandbox games. Context is everything. Nothing exists without a reason. That's how my worlds operate. To deny that of myself is to deny the entire point of how I GM. When people say they love random tables - and so do I - it's not enough for me to just make a random roll. Of course I don't do this out loud, but when I make a random roll, my brain backfills all the reasons why that random thing is suddenly a THING in play.

I love Spelljammer for instance. The context and conceits of Spelljammer mean that almost *anything* goes. I'll let people play nearly anything we can agree to stat up - but you bet your ass we're going to give them a contextual background why they're playing a Githyanki on a privateer ship with the rest of the PCs. I mean they have an entire transgendered race, Reigar, in Spelljammer (and they're awesome). Anything goes.

The same is true about the conceits of playing in bog-standard Westgate. So if you're going to come to me and say - "Ten, why is there a gay Githyanki innkeeper here in Westgate?" you better bet your ass again there is a good reason. They're not just there as a Githyanki "because the rules say it's possible", they're not just there with a blinking sign over their head saying "Hey I'm Gay". Those things are mutually exclusive and they're there because I as the GM say so for reasons that enable the PC's to discover and interact with as a perspective. Take it or leave it.

Where I balk is the "Mother May I" inclusiveness material where it's not needed. I don't need to be told what is allowed /not allowed in my games. And it speaks to the designers of the systems and settings that they think they need to make such proclamations - which audience are they talking down to precisely? It's clearly an agenda - because they're saying so on Social Media. I mean... why can't I just take them at their word? Why is this even a discussion?

So again. I don't care if they put homosexual NPC's in modules. I. Do. Not. Care. I've said this multiple times. I don't think this is an issue <--I've said that multiple times as well. What I care for is the inclusion of such things for ulterior motives. It puts an ideology BEFORE the product. And rather than trying to make that ideological imagery stand on its own merit (or lack thereof) they would rather replace traditional setting assumptions with mechanics and content to insinuate that ideology than create something new and novel.

Blue Rose is a *perfect* example of how to do it correctly. Making Elves now get the "Blessings of Corellon" as some proxy virtue signal to the LGBT crowd *while* proclaiming part of what make Drow evil is their binary view on gender is... ideological bullshit. With ostensibly more to come. (mind you - this doesn't affect me directly, but I have no desire to support ideologues of any stripe. So you know, I'll vote with my cash elsewhere as needed). And this is why I, and others like me are not the target demographic for the new D&D. Again... there is a lot of evidence to show this is an economic bad choice. But I suspect WotC doesn't care due to their ideological biases. So it's win-win for me for other reasons.

This is the same shit that Marvel has spent the last decade doing the same deconstruction (one might say destruction) of it's comicbook IP's. Ironman was turned into an teenage black girl (who was an asshole), Thor was turned into a woman, Spiderman was turned into half-black, half-Puerto-Rican kid* (I'll give Miles Morales a break, he's from an alternate reality), Hulk was turned into a Korean kid, Iceman was *forcibly* turned into a homosexual, telepathically by Jean Grey (and no one thought this was bad). She-Hulk became a masturbatory fantasy of all SJW's and instead of fighting actual Avenger-level villains, actually spent time hunting down... internet bullies. They DID introduce some new characters like America Chavez, a socialist hispanic girl that is horribly racist against white people. She's a lesbian naturally. They hired a bunch of Tumblr "writers" to their writing staff and editorial teams... and ran Marvel into the ground. They're currently trying to recover, and oh look, they're reversing all the crap the SJW's did.

So is it *necessary* to go through this in RPG's? You'll notice this is *exactly* why Pundit wants there to be an RPGGate. It's here in RPG's to be sure... it's one of the reasons I've stopped doing RPG development on some projects because one of the publishers I was working for has vowed to go only with POC designers going forward (or more specifically to give preference to them)... and frankly even though I am a *POC*, I'll be damned if I'm going to let my work be known because of my appearance. So yeah - it's not just about representation of LGBT's, POC's, Genders, etc. it's the placement of the ideology that uses those things as weapons over *the product* or *endeavor* itself.

Keep your bullshit politics and self-loathing out of my hobbies, unless you plan on making it useful.

Quote from: jhkim;1039692What I'm curious about, though, is the part I bolded above. What does that mean?

I trust my response above should cover this question.

Quote from: jhkim;1039692So, let's take the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. In its 3rd edition, it has an entry,

Do you feel that this flies in the face of what you consider traditional?

So unless this has been beaten to death by me... And since I have a soft spot in my heart for both these NPC's as I've used them for YEARS in my own campaign. They absolutely are not traditional. They absolutely are gay. And I absolutely don't care because in my game I've used them and put their relationship in context with the setting. It IS unusual. But Vaeranna is a 20th-lvl character who is a practical super-hero in Elversult, and this was known by implication even back in 2e. It's an outlier. There are always outliers that prove the rule. What's the real question? Are you asking if I'm aghast that 'omg gays in D&D'? I'm not a homophobe, so no.

What does fly in the face of "traditional" is putting a mechanic that implies being transgendered is "good", and being heteronormative is "evil" by IMPLICATION of culture.

Quote from: tenbones;1039748What does fly in the face of "traditional" is putting a mechanic that implies being transgendered is "good", and being heteronormative is "evil" by IMPLICATION of culture.

...or the reverse for that matter. I thought that was what alignments were for, so the GM could pick what kind of NPCs they wanted regardless of race or gender considerations.

In the Judges Guild Wilderlands Campaign Setting, with the Judges Guild Universal Role Playing System, you had to roll 2d20 for your alignment, and then play the alignment that you rolled. I'll upload the chart for that tomorrow when I get back to my gaming stuff.

I have also never played Drow as evil in any campaign, nor have I run Drow as evil in any of my games. They are reclusive and private and prefer not to interact with other races, and this is based on my early litererary experiences concerning Drow which I first came across in Raymond E. Fiests novels, first with a short story about them in Magician were Pug's group accidentally ran into a group of Moredhel when they were being hunted, and the Dark Elves offered them a respite, as well as from the Riftwars Saga novel Krondor: The Betrayal, which featured a CN Drow that warns good of impending evil..

I read all of these novels and stories long before I ever took a good look at TSR's D3 Vault of the Drow module, and they formed my impression of what Drow should be, ...so in my campaigns, the Dark Elves are Lawful or Chaotic Neutral. The original Drow were mistakenly identified as evil, when in fact they were simply isolated and wild.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1039758...this is based on my early litererary experiences concerning Drow which I first came across in Raymond E. Fiests novels, first with a short story about them in Magician were Pug's group accidentally ran into a group of Moredhel when they were being hunted, and the Dark Elves offered them a respite, as well as from the Riftwars Saga novel Krondor: The Betrayal, which featured a CN Drow that warns good of impending evil..

I read all of these novels and stories long before I ever took a good look at TSR's D3 Vault of the Drow module, and they formed my impression of what Drow should be, ...so in my campaigns, the Dark Elves are Lawful or Chaotic Neutral. The original Drow were mistakenly identified as evil, when in fact they were simply isolated and wild.

This is not quite accurate. (I'm as big as Raymond Feist fan as anyone out there) - The Moredhel (dark elves) are not intrinsically evil, true, they were the servants of the Dragon Lords - but that proximity alone made them power-hungry. I think you're confused about Pug's group being given respite by the Moredhel in the Riftwar - I suspect you might be thinking of a later series, or perhaps the Glamredhel (the Wild Elves) - the Moredhel were pretty evil because they were actively trying to bring about the return of their ancient creators, the Dragon Host which of course would have destroyed the world and probably a lot of other worlds.

Later in the series the Moredhel were still very dangerous but less so, since they were pretty much spiritually defeated. But did you ever read that book called Honored Enemy? Lotta Moredhel action there... all evil tho heh.

They're an intrinsically selfish race. I do believe you're spot on in comparing them with the Drow because it's actually possible to model Drow society like that without the insanity that is implied in D&D. I too model my drow after the Moredhel.

I gained enlightenment from reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who helped me decide never to take anyone seriously on the internet.

Quote from: Brad;1039787I gained enlightenment from reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who helped me decide never to take anyone seriously on the internet.

You're welcome.  Glad to help.

In this part of Magician: Apprentice, Pug, a wizard and Tomas, a squire were riding with a cavalry troop and Duke Borric conDoin from Crydee Castle to warn the other lords of Krondor of the appearance of the Tsurani, a fierce warlike race which had recently besieged Crydee. After an extended siege Pug had broken using magic, and the Tsurani had withdrawn.

(For those of you that don't know, The Tsurani, were actually Legions of the Petal Throne that were using dimensional portals to invade Midkemia. Now this was actually originally played out as a D&D game in Southern Californai, and Raymond Feist ended up writing several series of books about it...

FADE IN

EXT: SNOWY WINTER NIGHT, IN THE FOREST EAST OF CASTLE CRYDEE,  MIDKEMIA

KULGAN, GARDAN, and THE BOYS approached THE TWO NOBLES, who stood warming themselves before the fire. Darkness was descending quickly; even at noon their was little light in the snow-shrouded forest. Borric looked around and shivered from more than the cold.

BORRIC
"This is an ill-omened place, we would be well to be away as soon as possible."

They ate a quick meal and turned in. Pug and Tomas lay close, starting at every starnge sound, until fatigue lulled them to sleep

Scene 2

FADE IN

EXT: SNOWY WINTER DAY, IN THE FOREST EAST OF CASTLE CRYDEE,  MIDKEMIA

The Duke's Company passed deep into the forest, through glades so thick the trackers had to change course, doubling back to find another way for the horses, marking the trail as they went. Much of this forest was dark and twisted, with choking underbrush that impeded travel.

PUG said to TOMAS
"I doubt the sun ever shines here."

He spoke in soft tones. Tomas slowly nodded his eyes watching the trees. Since leaving the men from Carse three days ago, they had felt more tension each passing day. The noises of the forest had lessened as they moved deeper into the trees, until they now rode in silence. It was as if the animals and birds shunned this part of the forest. Pug knoew it was only because there were few animals that hadn't migrated South or went into hibernation, but the knowledge didn't lessen his and Tomas's dread.

Tomas slowed down...

TOMAS
"I Feel if something terrible is about to happen"

PUG
"You have been saying that for two days now."

After a moment he added;

"I hope we don't have to fight. I don't know how to use this sword, in spite of what you have tried to show me."

"Here" said Tomas holding something out.
Pug took it and found himself holding a small pouch, inside of which, were a collection of small, smooth rocks, and a sling."

TOMAS
"I Thought you might feel better with a sling. I brought one, too."

They were due to meet the second detachment of horses at midafternoon. The breakneck pace of the first four days, had given way to a careful walk, for a rush through the trees would be dangerous. At the rate they were progressing they would still be on time. Still, the Duke was chafing at the slow pace.

On and on they rode, at times having to stop while the guards cut brush before them, their sword blows echoing through the stillness of the forest, as they followed the narrow path left by the trackers.

Pug was lost in the thoughts of Carline when, later, a shout erupted from the front of the column, out of the sight of the boys. Suddenly the horsemen near Pug and Tomas were charging forward, oblivious to the thicket around them, dodging low hanging branches by instinct.

Pug and Tomas spurred their horses after the others, and soon their senses recorded a blur of brown and white, as snow-spotted trees seemed to fly past. They stayed low, close to the necks of their mounts, avoiding tree branches while they struggled to stay apace with the others. Pug looked over his shoulder to see Tomas falling behind. Branches and twigs caught at Pug's cloak as he crashed through the forest into a clearing. The sounds of battle assaulted his ears, and the boy saw fighting in progress. The remount horses were trying to pull up their stakes, while the fighting exploded around them. Pug could only vaguely make out the form of the combatants, dark shrouded shapes slashing upwards at the horsemen.

A figure broke away and came running towards him, avoiding the blow of a guard a few yards ahead of Pug. The strange warrior grinned wickedly at Pug, seeing only the boy before him. Raising his sword for a blow, the fighter screamed and clawed at his face as blood ran between his fingers. Tomas had reined in behind Pug, and with a yell, let fly another stone.

TOMAS
" I THOUGHT YOU WOULD GET YOURSELF INTO TROUBLE." He shouted.

He spurred his horse over, and rode over the fallen figure. Pug sat rooted for a moment, and then spurred his own horse. Pulling out his own sling, he let fly at a couple of targets, but couldn't be sure if the stones struck.

Suddenly Pug was in a place of calm in the fighting. On all sides he could see figures in dark cloaks and leather armor pouring out from the forest. They looked like Elves, save their hair was darker, and they shouted in a language unpleasant to Pug's ears. Arrows flew from the trees, emptying the saddles of Crydee horsemen.

Lying about, were the bodies of both the attackers and soldiers. Pug saw the lifeless bodies of a dozen men of Carse, as well as Longbow's two lead trackers, tied to stakes in lifelike poses around the campfire. Scarlet bloodstains spotted the white snow beside them. The ruse had worked, for the duke had ridden straight into the clearing and now the trap was sprung.

Lord Borric's voice rang out over the fray.
LORD BORRIC
"To me! To me! We are surrounded!"

Pug looked about for Tomas as he frantically spurred his horse towards the Duke and his gathering men. Arrows filled the air, and the screams of the dying echoed in the glade.

Borric Shouted, "THIS WAY!"

...and the survivors followed him, they crashed into the forest, riding over the attacking bowmen. Shouts followed them as they galloped away from the ambush, keeping low over the necks of their mounts avoiding both arrows and dangling branches.            

Pug frantically pulled his horse aside, avoiding a large tree. He looked about, but could not see Tomas. Fixing his gaze upon the back of another horseman, Pug determined to concentrate on one thing only, not losing sight of the man's back. Strange loud cries could be heard from behind, and other voices answered from one side. Pug's mouth was dry, and his hands were sweating inside the heavy gloves he wore.

They sped through the forest, shouts and cries echoing around them. Pug lost track of the distance covered, but he thought it surely a mile or more. Still the voices shouted in the forest, calling to the others, the course of the Duke's flight.

Suddenly Pug was crashing through the thick underbrush, forcing his lathered panting horse, up a small but steep rise. All around him the gloom of gray and green, broken only by patches of white. Atop the rise the Duke waited, his sword drawn. as others pulled up around him. Arutha sat by his father, his face covered in perspiration, in spite of the cold. Panting horses and exhausted guards gathered around. Pug was relieved to see Tomas beside Kulgan and Gardan.      

When the last rider approached Lord Borric said "How many?"

Gardan surveyed the survivors...

GARDAN
"We've lost eighteen men, have six wounded, and all the mules and baggage were taken."

Borric nodded.

BORRIC
"Rest the horses a moment, they'll come."

ARUTHA
"Are we to stand then, Father?"

Borric shook his head.

LORD BORRIC
"there are too many of them. At least a hundred struck the clearing."

He spat.

"We rode into that ambush likes rabbits into a snare."

He glanced about.

"We've lost nearly half our company."

Pug asked a soldier sitting beside him...

PUG
"Who were they?"

SOLDIER #1 answered invoking the Vengeance God.
" The Brotherhood of the Dark Path, Squire. May Ka-Hooli visit every one of the bastards with piles."

The soldier indicated a circle around them with his hand.

SOLDIER #1
"Small bands of them travel through the Green Heart (...a vast expanse of forest), though the mostly live in the mountains East of here, and way up in the Northlands. That was more than I would have bargained was around, curse The Luck.

...and later in the story, after the Duke, and Pug and Tomas had met up with a company of Dwarves they were talking in a council with the chieftain, one Dolgan, chief of the village of Caldara, and Warleader of the Grey Towers dwarven people.

DOLGAN
"Now to the matter of the news you carry (About the Tsurani). They are strange tidings, but explain away some mysteries we have been tussling with for some time now."

LORD BORRIC
"...What mysteries?"

Dolgan pointed out of the cave mouth.

DOLGAN
"As we've told you, we have had to patrol the area hereabouts. This is a new thing, for, in years past, the lands along the border of our farms and mines have been free from trouble."

He smiled.
"Occasionally, a band of especially bold bandits or Moredhel--the Dark Brothers, you call them-- or a more than usually stupid tribe of Goblins troubles us for a time. But for the most part,  things remain pretty peaceful."

DOLGAN
"But of late, everything has gone agely, About a month ago, a bit more, we began to see signs of large movements of Moredhel and Goblins from the villages to the North of ours. We sent some lads to investigate. They found entire villages abandoned, both Goblin and Moredhel, Some were sacked, but others stood empty, without a sign of trouble."  

"Needless to say, the displacement of these miscreants caused an increase in problems for ourselves. Our villages are in the higher meadows and plateaus, so they dare not attack, but they do raid our herds in the lower valleys as they pass--which is why we now mount patrols down the mountainside. With Winter upon us, our herds are in the lowest meadows..."

...and later

DOLGAN
"Now we at least we have a gleening as to the cause of this migration..."

DUKE BORRIC
"The Tsuranni."

and this was my introduction to the Drow. I pegged them as Neutral variable (Lawful to Chaotic neutral) depending on circumstances. The Drow never usually directly attacked Humans, other Elves, or Dwarves, but only did so out of necessity as they had been pushed out of their traditional homelands by the Tsuranni, the Legions of the Petal Throne that had invaded Midkemia.

Off topic but just had to say that Magician is one of the few books I could never finish. Just awful.

Quote from: tenbones;1039748So again. I don't care if they put homosexual NPC's in modules. I. Do. Not. Care. I've said this multiple times. I don't think this is an issue <--I've said that multiple times as well. What I care for is the inclusion of such things for ulterior motives. It puts an ideology BEFORE the product. And rather than trying to make that ideological imagery stand on its own merit (or lack thereof) they would rather replace traditional setting assumptions with mechanics and content to insinuate that ideology than create something new and novel.

Blue Rose is a *perfect* example of how to do it correctly. Making Elves now get the "Blessings of Corellon" as some proxy virtue signal to the LGBT crowd *while* proclaiming part of what make Drow evil is their binary view on gender is... ideological bullshit. With ostensibly more to come. (mind you - this doesn't affect me directly, but I have no desire to support ideologues of any stripe. So you know, I'll vote with my cash elsewhere as needed). And this is why I, and others like me are not the target demographic for the new D&D. Again... there is a lot of evidence to show this is an economic bad choice. But I suspect WotC doesn't care due to their ideological biases. So it's win-win for me for other reasons.

So this is about Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes for you?  That helps clarify a little. You say that Blue Rose is the perfect example of how to do it correctly - but years back, I heard exactly this same attitude of outrage and accusations ulterior motives used to bash Blue Rose, and that the proper way to do LGBT inclusion was Forgotten Realms.  Here are some threads from back in 2007, for example.

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?6849-The-Enemy-Shows-Himself

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?4994-(WFRP-Bretonnia)-quot-Magic-Deer-quot

where, for example, Spike complained about how it was preachy and treacly to the point of offense, and even that it was "akin to an immature sex fantasy".  


As for Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, it hasn't come out yet, so I have no particular opinion of it currently. I highly suspect, though, that when I buy it and use it in my D&D games - that none of this bullshit about purity of motives and ideology is going to show up in the slightest.

For me, it's about the gaming.  I don't give a damn about the author's social media, or the marketing campaign, or whatever signals or dog whistles people claim are going on. The question for me will be, "How does Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes make my game better?"  I don't need to know about the secret ulterior motives of the author, because it's not relevant for my game.

Putting sexuality and sexual situation into any RPG is the fast track to an immature sex fantasy. It's a truly terrible medium for the expression of sexual issues.

BTW, what ever happened to SPF?

Was he forgiven? Or forgotten? What was the final score?

Quote from: jhkim;1039800where, for example, Spike complained about how it was preachy and treacly to the point of offense, and even that it was "akin to an immature sex fantasy".  

I asked you this in Punditry. Why are you continuing an argument from 11 years ago with someone who is not here?

Quote from: Haffrung;1039646Pretty much. And I don't think it's a coincidence that it's most ardent champions come from the most religious country in the West.

To bring this back to D&D, where did we see the Christian fundamentalist backlash against D&D in the 80s? In the USA. And where have we seen identarian zealots carry out a cultural coup against D&D's "toxic white masculinity?" In the USA. Purity crusades, shaming, conformity, moral panics. It must be something in the water down there.

There are plenty of ideology crusaders in the UK too, Pelgrane Press is a leader in this sort of thing.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1039793In this part of Magician: Apprentice, Pug, a wizard and Tomas, a squire were riding with a cavalry troop and Duke Borric conDoin from Crydee Castle to warn the other lords of Krondor of the appearance of the Tsurani, a fierce warlike race which had recently besieged Crydee. After an extended siege Pug had broken using magic, and the Tsurani had withdrawn.

(For those of you that don't know, The Tsurani, were actually Legions of the Petal Throne that were using dimensional portals to invade Midkemia. Now this was actually originally played out as a D&D game in Southern Californai, and Raymond Feist ended up writing several series of books about it…

DOLGAN
"Now we at least we have a gleening as to the cause of this migration..."

DUKE BORRIC
"The Tsuranni."

and this was my introduction to the Drow. I pegged them as Neutral variable (Lawful to Chaotic neutral) depending on circumstances. The Drow never usually directly attacked Humans, other Elves, or Dwarves, but only did so out of necessity as they had been pushed out of their traditional homelands by the Tsuranni, the Legions of the Petal Throne that had invaded Midkemia.

You're welcome. We try to do our bit.

And yes, I do have the Feist and Wurts books on my shelves. I especially like the covers on the latter, which used some of my miniatures as models. You can still get them from Iron Wind, too.

Quote from: waltshumate;1039819There are plenty of ideology crusaders in the UK too, Pelgrane Press is a leader in this sort of thing.

Almost every swedish rpg publisher has become religiously SJW. Everything is big purple stuff. No dissension.