Quote from: jcfiala;1039297But, most D&D settings aren't historical at all.  Forgotten Realms?  Eberron?  Ravenloft?  Just by the name, DUNGEONS and DRAGONS, you're basically saying "This is not historical".  If you can have magic that can let a person fly from one country to another, if you can have creatures who can burn down a city on a bad day, then gay relationships is the thing that breaks your suspension of disbelief?

So if it's a fantasy setting, you can and should ignore any and all social, economic, and political models of historical human culture. Got it. Why stop at gay marriage? Why not include smart-phones, predator drones, cheerleading competitions, ride-sharing apps, laser-eye surgery, college saving plans, in-vitro fertilization, GMO crops, helicopter parenting, tinder, vegan activism, doxxing, and avocado toast?

Look, people have all kinds of ideas of what they want in their fantasy RPGs and their fantasy fiction. Personally, I prefer medieval or dark ages Europe and the Near East, but more perilous, weird, and hostile. I no more want modern social conventions in my fantasy world than I want modern technology. I know too much about the historical development of societies to completely detach social norms from technology.

Quote from: Haffrung;1039302So if it's a fantasy setting, you can and should ignore any and all social, economic, and political models of historical human culture. Got it. Why stop at gay marriage? Why not include smart-phones, predator drones, cheerleading competitions, ride-sharing apps, laser-eye surgery, college saving plans, in-vitro fertilization, GMO crops, helicopter parenting, tinder, vegan activism, doxxing, and avocado toast?

I want a summon avacado toast cantrip.  Now.

But yeah, you pretty much are throwing out a lot of stuff if you're playing Dungeons and Dragons.  I mean, it's right in that title - Dungeons, complexes extending underground with crazy traps and treasure, and Dragons, giant lizards with wings and energy breath.  Neither of those existed historically.  They're the bedrock of the game.

Smart Phone?  Communication spell magic item.  Predator Drones?  Summon Monster I-IX.  Cheerleading competitions?  Bard class. Ride-sharing apps?  Guarding caravans! Laser-eye surgery? EYE OF VECNA, Baby!

It's all there already!

Quote from: jhkimNotable opinions that I see here include:

1) Gay characters shouldn't appear in D&D modules, because D&D modules should be family-friendly.

2) Gay characters should only appear in modules if there is a random-roll option for them to not be gay.

3) Module writers should feel free to put in whatever gay characters they want. It's OK for modules not to have gay characters, and it's also fine for modules to have gay characters.

#3 is my stance.

Quote from: tenbones;1039287*ALL* of this is stupid. Because it ignores context. Being Gay is a state. It's not not-family friendly. Just ask any family with gay people in it where the family is not a bunch of assholes/buttholes/anii.

The only option is *make it good* and make it relevant or don't do it at all.

This goes back to my left-handed, Japanese, Filipino, Cajun representation. or lack thereof. i.e. it's stupid and not required.

Can you unpack what you mean by "make it relevant"?  For example, some others have criticized the example of Dala the cutpurse in Temple of Elemental Evil - that her relationship with Dick Rentsch is irrelevant information that should be cut.  What's your feeling on NPCs like that?

Quote from: jhkim;1039292First of all, Ras - that exchange comes *after* tenbones' post that I'm replying to.

Second, Gronan mouths off a lot. (As do we all, sometimes.) It can help to ask questions?

To Gronan - Are you advocating that all module writers should be expected to include gay characters in their modules?  Or are you just saying that you like modules where the writers put in gay characters, while you have no problem with modules without gay characters? Or do you have some other position?

You need him to walk that shit back because it fucks with your narrative.

So I watched SPF's video, and dear lord you can almost hear him begging to be taken back in the subtext. Of course they never will, so I'm not sure what he's hoping to accomplish. And apparently there was a meltdown over him suggesting people ask a woman if they can pay her a complement, because that puts everything on her.

The issue here is no longer harassment, it's the complete lack of social acumen of everyone involved.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1036883The accused doxxed his accusers over at TBP. In Tabletop Roleplaying Open.

Identifying someone by name isn't doxxing. Sharing 'private' correspondence isn't doxxing. Funny how this wasn't an issue when Jessica Price shared her correspondence with Frank Mentzer. Funny how this isn't an issue when it comes to sharing otherwise private posts in Tangency on the Infraction Forum when the moderators have someone to shame.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1036977It's clearly a case of SJWs devouring one of their own.

There truly is some Oroboros level shit going down.

Quote from: rgalex;1037045According to the mods "innocent until proven guilty" has been deemed a sexist derailing tactic.

Which has already come back to bite them, and will again, and again. Because like Sean they never learn, as their social status is too tied up in that narrative to ever abandon it, even if it kills them.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037229because the testimony provided in this case so far is only hearsay,

He admitted to pestering a woman for a hug in his defense. The fact something like this is even an issue though shows just how poorly socialized these people are.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037229they should really use their iPhone and all that fine portable tech like their tablets and such, to very discreetly record one of these real losers making unwanted advances, and record themselves rejecting such an advance.

Most of the time this simply isn't feasible, and people such as Jon Del Arroz have been banned from conventions for just saying they intended to bring recording devices for their own protection.

Quote from: Headless;1037304In his denial we learn that he does have pictures of him having sex on his phone and he does show them to women in the hopes of picking them up.

Yeah that's... umm... Does that even work?

Quote from: jhkim;1037312Helton's article appears to be roughly responsible.

Well at least after Morris' editorial contributions.

Quote from: jhkim;1037312Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay, and is admissible in court.

It's also open to cross examination.

Quote from: Haffrung;1037320It is weird how it seems to be only geek conventions that have erupted with hysteria, and where consensual hook-ups are regarded as so unlikely or dangerous that they shouldn't even be attempted.

At this point I'm all for a complete ban on flirting. If only I was confident they could tell the difference between that and normal conversation. I guess as long as you don't ask a woman...anything everything should be OK.

Quote from: CarlD.;1037378Look at rpg.net, for example. It went from hosting an annual NC-17 content contest for Exalted with the prize being an X-rated (if desired) illustration from Melissa Uran who was openly praised for her talent for erotic art.  Now pictures of a woman in a slit gown that wouldn't cause a stir on a children cartoon draw cries of outrage.

Yeah, it's pretty sobering.

Quote from: Dave R;1037432Never apologize; it doesn't save you or stop the controversy, it just moves it to the show trial, parade and execution stage.

Agreed.

Quote from: Haffrung;1037446So what do you think are the correct social environments for people to pursue romantic interests? And why do you think you should be able to restrict where and when other willing and adults flirt with one another?

Good questions, because apparently even clubs and bars are not the proper venue anymore.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037466Monsterheats written by Avery Alder aka...

Yaknow, we could leave her deadname out of this simply out of respect.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037466In fact the last in the list features a "sex move" which is triggered when they have sex with somebody and moreover a PC may roll to turn on/seduce any other character, including other PCs.

And the entire game is about toxic relationships to boot.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037524I have never heard of a one time, reasonable attempt at expressing interest leading to any issues except when there is a clear power difference

But this gets complicated when your status is based on how much of a victim you are.

Quote from: Silas1066;1037530his behavior probably would have been considered OK by the women involved if he was good-looking or had some charisma.

No shit.

Quote from: Silas1066;1037530He is already being kicked out of other conventions, such as Chupacabracon ...

It does say he's not attending, but then why leave his name on the guest list at all?

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601Women are no less shitty than men but the power structure still is tilted heavily toward men.

Depends on the arena, and much more on wealth and status than gender.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601What you do not seem to grasp is that one woman making an accusation does not end the career of the man.

Yes. It does.

And my brother went to prison for a crime he didn't commit on the word of a single women.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601The number of false accusations is very small and the long history of complaints being ignored is real.

Nice to hear, but that doesn't help the victims of false accusations, and they shouldn't be ignored just because they are fewer in number.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601This is not a court of law and innocent until proven guilty is not required and no company will run into an issue for firing someone is there is any credibility to the accusation.

Innocent until proven guilty is not just a legal principle, it's a moral one. And these days most institutions will just play it safe and fire them regardless, because the cost of keeping them is too much even if innocent.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037618There are not women routinely making false accusations and it is not costless for them to make an accusation in the first place.

I know plenty of women who make false accusations on a regular basis, in casual conversation, so I do wonder how costly it actually is.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037619It is improper and wrong to focus on sex, and sexual power as a game, in public, or at a gaming convention.

I'll have to inform the folks who run Vampire and Monsterhearts at cons then.

Quote from: GRIM;1037716he's apparently not allowed to present his side of things without being censored.

Fuck apparently, it's a fact.

Quote from: GRIM;1037716Accusations such as this, true or false, ruin people. As little as a couple of tweets can see people lose their relationships, jobs, future prospects and end up with an internet profile that renders them socially toxic and unemployable for years to come. This happens whether or not they've actually done anything at all. Surely we can agree that this isn't a good way to proceed? To – metaphorically – lynch someone, purely because an accusation is made?

No, they can't, because they never believe it can happen to them. Until it does. And even then they'll often cling to the ideology that destroyed them like Sean has.

Quote from: GRIM;1037716The fact of the matter is that we really have no idea how many accusations are false.

Of course not. And we never will. Because the results are too agenda driven, and they depend on provably false statements.

Quote from: GRIM;1037716I don't think anti-harassment policies are a good idea.

I do.

Quote from: GRIM;1037716I've attended more than one convention which, if the policy were strictly enforced, would have had no sales room and no games.

That's because they were vague and poorly written, and yes such policies are extremely dangerous because they can be selectively enforced and interpreted in whatever way necessary to go after whoever you want.

Quote from: GRIM;1037716I mean, they're even measuring skirts at PAX now.

Holy shit they really are.

At least they're not measuring Kilts yet.

Quote from: Haffrung;1037910Margaret frickin' Atwood herself has learned this the hard way. Seems Millennial women think she's a bad feminist because she still believes in the rule of law and the presumption of innocence.

That's because it was never really about social justice or feminism, but control.

Quote from: Silas1066;1038202Beyond this, we have leftists like Hans Cummings, the submissions director for the Ennies, who openly admits that when a submission comes in from an author he isn't familiar with, he checks the social media of that author, and if he sees that the guy is a conservative, straight, etc., the submission goes right into the trash: the judges never see it. So the games that win Ennie Awards are gay friendly, feature women of color, etc.

Sources? Because that's pretty damning.

Quote from: tenbones;1038244Do you think that D&D before the inclusionary language was de-facto *exclusionary* for not specifying inclusive language for LGBT+ crowd?

Considering my Cthulhu/D&D group in the 90's consisted of myself, a gay dude, a lesbian chick, a transwoman, and an Eagle scout, I can say for a fact it wasn't.

Quote from: tenbones;1038270unless they now meet the criteria of untouchable Oppression Olympians who are immune to their own ideology

At least they think they're immune. Until they aren't.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038291That's the problem with any movement based on Identitarianism. It eats itself. They're always going through Purity Purges.

As I said, they'll destroy themselves. So we don't have to start the fires, just take the pictures.

Quote from: Silas1066;1038443Is Raggi a member of this group? Why is he putting up my posts on other forums?

Now I stand by what I said about LotFP, but this discussion was for this audience, not for the general public.

Quote from: Silas1066;1038457I'm just wondering why my post found its way over to Raggi's group.

Some dogpile by proxy effort?

Welcome to the internet chuckles.

Quote from: Silas1066;1038452There was a game years ago called "The World of Necroscope" by West End. Cool system, pretty good writing, interesting game world, but the art in the first module was outright torture-porn

Actually it was outright porn, because I know the magazines it was traced from.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1038843If they have to tell you they're doing it they're probably pandering.

Perhaps the most useful point made in this entire thread.

Quote from: jeff37923;1039061Of interest to the conversation about SJWs harassing published authors, I submit this piece from Larry Correia.

Aaand update!

I also remember how careful Jim Butcher had to be to not outright agree with Larry when he shared his post about the state of WorldCon and the banning of Jon Del Arroz.

Quote from: Krimson;1039180A GM that allows a disruptive player at the table still had to at some point make the decision to allow them.

Not according to Helton. He believes the GM has no more authority than any other player. And I believe his response to having this error pointed out was "lol".

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1039310So I watched SPF's video, ... (mouth noises) .

Hey, don't you have an overdue kickstarter to fulfill?  Go mail me my fucking dice!

Quote from: jcfiala;1039313Hey, don't you have an overdue kickstarter to fulfill?  Go mail me my fucking dice!

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Quote from: jcfiala;1039303But yeah, you pretty much are throwing out a lot of stuff if you're playing Dungeons and Dragons.  I mean, it's right in that title - Dungeons, complexes extending underground with crazy traps and treasure, and Dragons, giant lizards with wings and energy breath.  Neither of those existed historically.  They're the bedrock of the game.

Right, as you say, its there in the title... its Dungeons and Dragons, not Butt-sex and Barbarians. In my 35 years of gaming I have never seen a player's or an NPC's sexual orientation come into play...

Quote from: NYTFLYR;1039322Right, as you say, its there in the title... its Dungeons and Dragons, not Butt-sex and Barbarians. In my 35 years of gaming I have never seen a player's or an NPC's sexual orientation come into play...

So, you don't like the Barbarian class?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1039310Not according to Helton. He believes the GM has no more authority than any other player. And I believe his response to having this error pointed out was "lol".

His opinion is just as valid as anyone else who doesn't pay my bills nor sign my paycheck.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039237Yeah, if you have to resort to this, you've lost this one.

"Lost?"  That implies some sort of "contest."

I am merely mocking and deriding someone I find loathsome, for the pathetic shreds of entertainment it provides me.

Quote from: jhkim;1039292First of all, Ras - that exchange comes *after* tenbones' post that I'm replying to.

Second, Gronan mouths off a lot. (As do we all, sometimes.) It can help to ask questions?

To Gronan - Are you advocating that all module writers should be expected to include gay characters in their modules?  Or are you just saying that you like modules where the writers put in gay characters, while you have no problem with modules without gay characters? Or do you have some other position?

I'm saying I don't give a shit one way or another, because I don't run modules.  But some of my non cis hetero friends have said it makes them feel better to see characters like themselves, and I think my friends feeling good is a good thing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039328I'm saying I don't give a shit one way or another, because I don't run modules.  But some of my non cis hetero friends have said it makes them feel better to see characters like themselves, and I think my friends feeling good is a good thing.

So apparently you do give some of a shit.

Quote from: Silas1066;1038202Beyond this, we have leftists like Hans Cummings, the submissions director for the Ennies, who openly admits that when a submission comes in from an author he isn't familiar with, he checks the social media of that author, and if he sees that the guy is a conservative, straight, etc., the submission goes right into the trash: the judges never see it. So the games that win Ennie Awards are gay friendly, feature women of color, etc.

Would like a link to that.

Quote from: NYTFLYR;1039322Right, as you say, its there in the title... its Dungeons and Dragons, not Butt-sex and Barbarians. In my 35 years of gaming I have never seen a player's or an NPC's sexual orientation come into play...

Hi, NYTFLYR.  What do you think of old-school material like Dala the cutpurse and other examples I pointed out in Post #202? Do you think Gary Gygax was wrong to put in such information in the module?

Also, I noticed your Fists and .45s link.  It has a "Drop Dead Gorgeous" trait that helps with Seduction and High Society rolls.  Does that ever come up in play?