Quote from: HappyDaze;1119712Except that such players do not (usually) game alone, and that 'minor concession' might have a major negative impact on how much other players enjoy and invest in the game. If my group is playing a game in the American Old West and I allowed a player to make a character with 'lavender eyes, blue hair, and iridescent skin,' I think many of my players would be less than pleased especially if I was expected to make the world just accept such as being normal.

It also enables lack of creativity and unwillingness to commit to the theme of the game world. In my experience players who insist on making characters with rainbow hair, weird eyes and other out of place characteristics aren't so much exercising a need to play such characters, but substituting in-depth and compelling character concepts with superficial traits that look "cool", usually as a result of their lack of experience with RPGs or knowledge of game world. They have no clue how to create a compelling character or backstory, or think in terms of the game world so they add a bunch of weird traits instead.

These are often also the type of players who are likely to end up making sweeping changes to character's appearance or background midway into the game cuz some weird random thing occurred to them after play had already started, as illustrated in this old D&D parody video, in the part where one of the players suddenly decides to change their character's eye color.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leYc4oC83E&feature=sharehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leYc4oC83E&feature=share

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1119713One thing I'd like answered: what makes Cthulhu & co. so compelling that you're willing to exploit the work of a man you hold in such disdain?

Snarky answer: It's precisely because they hold him in disdain that they want to exploit his work rather than simply expand and honour it. The best revenge on someone you hate is to take his ideas and twist them to serve your ends rather than his.

Serious answer: The notion of a universe so epically, incomprehensibly vast and full of terrible things that it threatens your very sanity is an awesome frisson no matter what your politics.

Harsh answer: The real horror of Lovecraft's vision isn't an incomprehensively vast universe full of terrible things. The real horror of Lovecraft's vision is that nothing we believe about ourselves -- not our ideals, values, dreams, hopes, visions, religions, philosophies, civilizations, art, acts of kindness or love, anything at all -- means anything. So SJ advocates who condemn Lovecraft for his racism are, to some extent, making the same "mistake" that religious people (like me) who reject him for his atheism are: the whole horror of Lovecraft's vision is that moral motivations of any kind are inherently meaningless, because the universe can't and doesn't care about them.

Now I personally don't mind about someone taking only so much of HPL's vision as they want and no more: art is the ultimate salad bar. But getting on one's moral high horse about what's taken and what's left behind has a terrible tendency to become just another greengrocer's sign (I know I'm beating that image to death these days but I really am finding it quite relevant). Not to mention just striking me as ultimately a little "bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you" ungrateful.

But that raises the further question--why not take inspiration and create one's own antimythology, rather than being beholden to Lovecraft's work? The spirit is one thing; you don't necessarily need Cthulhu and the gang, and the baggage that brings with it, to do similar works in the same vein.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1119721But that raises the further question--why not take inspiration and create one's own antimythology, rather than being beholden to Lovecraft's work? The spirit is one thing; you don't necessarily need Cthulhu and the gang, and the baggage that brings with it, to do similar works in the same vein.

I think partly it's because launching a new universe requires building a new audience, and it's so much easier and cheaper simply to co-opt an existing one by exploiting all the old beloved trappings, even if they're eventually going to lose their flavour because you're sneaking in new and "improved" mental nutrition under them. (That's why the Doctor had to become a woman rather than simply launching a spinoff series about Romana; why Jane Foster had to become Thor, not just a Valkyrie knockoff.)

Now that said, there are plenty of people doing exactly this, i.e. creating work in the cosmic horror spirit of Lovecraft without bothering to hit any of his particular thematic notes or public-domain images. But the problem with that -- and this is the second reason -- is that launching the new is only part of the process; you have to directly "answer" the old as well to really undermine and discredit it, so you can't just create your own cosmic horror stories to show off the "good" ideas, you have to write stories that are deliberate and subversive reworkings of the "bad" ones to make sure your audience gets it.  Fisking your opponent's manifesto is just as important as writing your own, and it, too, is easier and often more fun besides.

Quote from: Franky;1119689Common courtesy would be for the OP to have posted links to the offending material, or at least examples of it.  At the very least, a few screenshots of the stuff.  Why has the OP refused to post any links, or anything really?  Is this some sort of 'vaguebooking' the kids are all into these days? Or does the OP lack even the rudimentary ability to link to anything?  He/she has been asked multiple times for links too.   Say, it it a sock puppet for someone?  I bet that it is.  I wonder who?

I don't think that I have ever encountered a C&S player in all my years in RPGs ( over 40).  What is/was its appeal again?

I knew one once. At least he kept after us to try the game. But he wasn't willing to run it and everyone who wanted to run games was already running "D&D," much of it wildly house-ruled. He also couldn't explain what he liked about it. He became known as "C&S," just as another guy was always called "RQ" but RQ ran some good RuneQuest campaigns over the years.

I suspect that HP Lovecraft's work being in the public domain is a big factor as well. No one has to pay a licensing fee for the Cthulhu stuff.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119647You deligitimize yourself. I have been watching this thread because I am interested in the SJW lunacy in RPGs. But so far, this has been really weak tea. A few complaints with no direct evidence.

Don't believe me then.  I really don't care.  Other people in this thread and others have verified what I’m saying but If you want to be a lawyer for SJW companies.  Suit yourself.  It's your problem.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1119713I understand wanting to distance oneself from Lovecraft's more odious opinions, but the phrasing feels less like distancing and more like self-righteous condemnation. One thing I'd like answered: what makes Cthulhu & co. so compelling that you're willing to exploit the work of a man you hold in such disdain?

Ooooh, can I play?

- HPL has a high quality, highly lauded and public domain library of content that is easier to use than simply copying some successful, modern IP (and thus avoid getting sued), when you lack any original ideas of your own
- Slightly different, but you can call anything "Lovecraftian" to try to pull eyes to whatever garbage you are trying to sell
- Calling out his opinions as evil gets you more attention from the angry bees on the internet, and that's all that matters when your primary goal is getting clicks
- You can dodge being called out on quality / lack of originality by claiming your work is in response to the racism of Lovecraft, and any call outs are obviously because sour apple / racism / evil white man villainy
- When self interest is all that matters, views that would otherwise be held to be incompatible suddenly make sense
- HPL isn't going away, and his works are getting more and more attention from Hollywood, computer game companies and other industries that make loads more money

In other words, much like young models that will ride the desiccated living corpse of Mick Jagger.

Quote from: Iron Cross;1119730Don't believe me then.  I really don't care.  Other people in this thread and others have verified what I'm saying but If you want to be a lawyer for SJW companies.  Suit yourself.  It's your problem.

Manwut?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119738Manwut?

   You forget one of the Prime Laws of Internet Discourse, Ratman: "If you disagree with me at all, you are on the side of the Enemy."

Quote from: Iron Cross;1119730Don't believe me then.  I really don't care.  Other people in this thread and others have verified what I'm saying but If you want to be a lawyer for SJW companies.  Suit yourself.  It's your problem.

And on this day, Wednesday January 22, 2020, pointing out proper argumentation practices, such as Burden of Proof and proving evidence to backup your claims and provide concrete examples of WTF you're even talking about became being a "Lawyer for SJW companies".

So, Iron Cross, are you and have been a Chivalry & Sorcery fan?  Where did you come in and what's your history?

There's a lot that I like about C&S and I'd go as far as saying that I think that every last version of C&S is infinitely superior to any version of D&D. (just not a fan okay)

So how does C&S 5 mechanically represent the SJW cause?  I'd like a lot of the tools from Bireme and Galley to the miniatures rules.  I'm afraid I found the Skill scape system was a little too easily abused and people were one shotting the supposedly scary trolls at first level a little too much for my tastes.

Does Britannia have a reprint of the original red book or second edtion materials available?

Quote from: sureshot;1119710Well it seems many "woke" rpg companies are hypocrites look at Paizo who suddenly became woke even before 2E PF by including  god or servant of one who targeted children. I think Folca was the name https://images.app.goo.gl/nfRjsNErUkHQvK876 and the of course the god made an appearance in new book just as the new IT movie was hitting theaters what a shocking coincidence. Of course the fans ripped them a new one and seemed surprised by the reaction. Anyway Woke fans think that somehow they will join a gaming group and start dictating new terms on what the players and DMs will use at the table during a campaign. Or what a player and DM reads in their homes simply by walking in off the street.

Now hang on sureshot, lets get this accusation straight.  Paizo published a Demon Lord that targeted children and that makes them "woke"?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119738Manwut?

Dude's handle is Iron Cross...

Quote from: Shasarak;1119744Now hang on sureshot, lets get this accusation straight.  Paizo published a Demon Lord that targeted children and that makes them "woke"?

I think the accusation is hypocrisy--Paizo pretends to wokeness on the one hand but creates stuff like Folca on the other. Personally, I thought Paizo was worryingly fiend-happy back in the 3.5 days, so I'm not surprised by either.