So I backed them on kickstarter and was very excited for the new edition. Right up until yesterday when one of the designers on facebook when on a full SJW assault on the fans.

Anyone else have a game they were looking forward too and ruined by the devs stupidly opening their mouths and spewing hate?

I was backing Chivalry & Sorcery in hopes that it might be a good tool for the Romanticized Fairy-Tale Medieval Christendom games I want to run someday, but backed out due to financial concerns and the system feeling too crunchy for my current tastes. Now it sounds like I might have dodged a bullet, although you can't state things like that without giving us details.

  I don't know that I've ever had a forthcoming game ruined by developers, although I've had publishers alienate me due to their agendas becoming too intrusive and annoying to me (Green Ronin, Pelgrane Press).

huh...well, I'm not sure what full sjw attack is.  Are they attacking sjws or are they sjws attacking?

In any case I played third edition for quite a while but skipped fourth.  Sometimes I think I shouldn't have but I was very into Rolemaster at the time.

I didn't back the kickstarter but would have if I had any money at the time.

It was in this thread: https://www.facebook.com/groups/121390094630920/permalink/1911780872258491/

Sadly I can't get the original comments (or most of the comments on that thread to load for some reason).

The issue was him coming out and effectively saying that you if you disagreed you were bottom level scum and that it was always white men that were the issue.

The comment in question is from Andy Staples and is more aggressive then this one: https://www.facebook.com/andy.staples.102/posts/10156888653837424 but should give you an idea of the direction it went if you can get the one I was referring to in the original post to load.

I got no problem with a medieval setting of this kind: by all means include female warriors, muslims, PoC, etc etc etc. Its all good.

But throwing in your virtue signalling polemic just insults and alienates. Staples is setting himself up as holier-than-thou with his 'And I researched history so I know shit and all you white male fuckers don't' attitude. What a tool.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1105446I got no problem with a medieval setting of this kind: by all means include female warriors, muslims, PoC, etc etc etc. Its all good.

But throwing in your virtue signalling polemic just insults and alienates. Staples is setting himself up as holier-than-thou with his 'And I researched history so I know shit and all you white male fuckers don't' attitude. What a tool.

   Agreed on both points. Now, I just did a skim of the free 4th Edition PDF downloads I picked up four years ago, and the references to Christianity seem pretty generic, glancing and sometimes defensive about doing so. So if they're going to make a big deal about including Islam and Judaism as well, I'm going to be curious to see how they approach Christianity.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1105446I got no problem with a medieval setting of this kind: by all means include female warriors, muslims, PoC, etc etc etc. Its all good.

But throwing in your virtue signalling polemic just insults and alienates. Staples is setting himself up as holier-than-thou with his 'And I researched history so I know shit and all you white male fuckers don't' attitude. What a tool.

Exactly. I love the game, I love the sound of everything about the game. I just can't stand giving money to someone like him.

I know the name 'Andy Staples', but I'm not sure from where... like I've seen it a lot over the years but I've never played any of the games I can find him associated with. Was he a Games Workshop guy?

Maybe there is more going on behind the scenes that he's being defensive about, people throwing up dust about including those elements in the game?

Quote from: Simlasa;1105459I know the name 'Andy Staples', but I'm not sure from where... like I've seen it a lot over the years but I've never played any of the games I can find him associated with. Was he a Games Workshop guy?

Maybe there is more going on behind the scenes that he's being defensive about, people throwing up dust about including those elements in the game?

    There have been people both pushing hard for 'inclusivity' in medieval fantasy (some to highlight that it was predominantly white Christian men but not uniformly so, some for an agenda) and people pushing back hard against it (both nasty alt-right sorts--who are often Northern Europagan sorts--and those who are just fed up with PC), so that the historical accuracy seems to get lost in the polarization. Since Staples seems to be treating the Christian elements with as much thoroughness as the Jewish and Islamic ones he calls out, I expect this is both historical accuracy and some of the "lets include the 'marginalized'" element, combined with distaste for the alt-right and a bit of the annoying tendency on either side to assume 'if you're not with us, you're with The Enemy.'

I cancelled my pledge due to not really feeling too good about this rewrite; now I'm glad I did.

Quote from: Brad;1105464I cancelled my pledge due to not really feeling too good about this rewrite; now I'm glad I did.

The rewrite doesn't bother me. The virtue signalling does. Nothing more than trolling for no reason other than to provoke a reaction from the 'white male bottom feeders' and demonstrate how worthily fucking Woke he is. Guy's a Completely Unworthy Nuisance Troll.

Yes there certainly is a lot of virtue signalling online. It seems like hardly anyone goes to any RPG forum to post about gaming. It's almost all politics and political/cultural signalling.

Just double checked the kickstarter page (because they usually have a little info about each person involved) and here's what it says about Andy.

"Andy Staples

is a communications consultant and former journalist based in the Middle East. He's a founder member of the Gulf Role-Playing Community, and has been a fan of Chivalry & Sorcery since discovering the 2nd edition around 1984. Ed Simbalist's article on manorial economics led him to run research projects on medieval villages, agriculture and landscapes. He has previously done design work for Columbia Games Inc and Brittannia Game Designs."

Communications Consultant? Real nice job communicating with the fans.

Though as an ex-journalist I guess we really should expect anything else from him.

Ehh? I have a dead tree copy of the first edition Redbook of C&S. So they are doing a new edition, huh? And it's being written by a virtue-signaling sjw you say? This should be interesting. Let's see how true they remain to the original C&S, which included much better stats adjustments, skills bundles, and backstories for Women, and Moors than any other RPG of that time period. The new writer for the Kickstarter edition, Andy Staples, acts like this is all brand new to C&S, but in fact, it was already included in the game, right from the very beginning.

This was one of the reasons I really liked the original Chivalry & Sorcery, it had more traditional Knights & Chivalry, from the Middle Ages. It included Moors, Saracens, & The Mongolians Horse Lords with the Orange Book. C&S featured more realistic weapons combat than D&D, and of course, the really great jousting tables. It was published in 1977, and I began playing it from 1978 on btw, and had a good gaming going that I was running, as well as another campaign I was playing in, that was being run by my friend Rodney.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1105536Let's see how true they remain to the original C&S, which included much better stats adjustments, skills bundles, and backstories for Women, and Moors than any other RPG of that time period.

Reading through the (horribly written) Wikipedia entry on C&S suggests that later editions of the game moved away from its original adherence to presenting a realistic medieval european setting, which bothered many of its fans. It sounds like Britannia, with 4th edition, started trying to head back toward that original focus... so maybe that is why these matters are getting attention?

I don't know the game in detail in any of its versions, but I did gloss through the original back during my 'realism' craze and was impressed with its detail and seeming authenticity (based on my historical knowledge at the time).