I've read that chimpanzees are terrifyingly strong and more than a match for an unarmed human, even a large, strong man, capable of throwing him out of a boxing ring with ease, breaking bones, mutilations, etc. On top of that they appear to have an alignment of chaotic evil when they're sexually mature.
How do you stat chimps in your game? Can they take a bullet and keep coming? How would a chimp fare against a man with a sword? An armoured knight? Bruce Lee?
St. James Davis chimpanzee attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Davis_chimpanzee_attack)
Can a 90-lb. chimp clobber a full-grown man? (https://www.straightdope.com/21344496/can-a-90-lb-chimp-clobber-a-full-grown-man)
I had to check - a "man-sized" gorilla is 4+1 HD in OSRIC/AD&D, same as an ogre IIRC.
So, can probably beat most common fighters, bandits, etc.
A chimpanzee would be smaller, maybe 2 HD, and could be defeated by someone with armor and sword, but would give a random bandit a hard time.
To be more "realistic" these animals probably should be more dangerous.
I love this thread title. I also think a chimp would be like 2hd probably 1d6 damage with scratches and bites. And something about climbing.
Based on that description it looks like the baseline of chimpanzee strength would be at the absolute top of the human range, probably something like STR 19-20 if using a 1-20 scale; orangutans and gorillas would easily be well above that. Add in extremely high Athlete-type skills for brachiating and very high brawling/wrestling combat proficiencies (it helps when you can grapple with all four limbs), and a good few of them having the equivalent of the Berserk disadvantage, you would have a very dangerous foe for anybody not in possession of highly rated weapons and armour.
Of course, chimps being animals, a simple Charm Animal would solve just about any threat posed, so as long as you've got a druid handy you're OK.
Strength and size and their relationship is always a bit of a struggle for rpgs.
In my Galaxies in Shadow system humans have weak arms and dextrous hands while chimps have normal arms and hands. The result is that chimps can lift twice as much as a human of the same size but have -10 Dexterity.
I don't know what rule set you are using, but the Rock Baboon from the 1981 Monday Basic set fits the billet for a chimp.
AC 6 HD 2 MV 120'(40') AT 1 club, 1 bite D 1-6/1-3 NA 2-12 (5-30) SA F2 ML 8 TT U AL N
Now the books has the Rock Baboon using a club, but chimps have been known to pick up sticks and swing them at others.
As for Treasure Type U, the items found can be from a previous victim.
Definitely 17 STR, 17 DEX, 17 CON. Bite ya face off with a 1-4 on 1d6. The original savage: will shit in his own hand and let ya have it.
(https://r2.starryai.com/results/468021488/7e3749d7-9820-4b2c-a854-297dd5d646ae.webp)
Not sure if mentioned but render, a chimp can easily rip your arms off.
I would say their average STR, DEX, CON should be whatever the human top is, with some penalties for dex when handling delicate stuff or something because they can't do lot's of stuff we can.
Gorillas are way scarier, and baboons are like stronger and smarter wolfs that can climb.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2024, 12:25:50 PMGorillas are way scarier, and baboons are like stronger and smarter wolfs that can climb.
Gorillas may be tougher, but I've never heard of them being described as evil. Being reincarnated as a chimp is probably the ideal deal for a psychopath--all of the evil, none of the guilt.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on August 11, 2024, 10:11:03 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2024, 12:25:50 PMGorillas are way scarier, and baboons are like stronger and smarter wolfs that can climb.
Gorillas may be tougher, but I've never heard of them being described as evil. Being reincarnated as a chimp is probably the ideal deal for a psychopath--all of the evil, none of the guilt.
Yeah, I meant they're scarier in the sense of being stronger, faster and tougher.
Chimps & Bonobos are total psychos.
A male chimpanzee will literally take your face off.
An rpg 'hero' armed with a sword should take it out as we are not talking about realism here.
Sensationalism is fun, but I don't know where you all are getting your information from.
The majority opinion appears to be that chimps are 1.5x - 2x as strong as an average human, for their body weight. Two things about this:
1. So is the typical D&D Fighter.
2. Chimps weigh less than humans.
When I ran a pirate campaign some time ago, the PCs found a city of gold inhabited by "ghouls" that turned out to be baboons infected with kuru the laughing sickness from eating brains. That worked pretty well, my players liked it.
Quote from: Zalman on August 12, 2024, 09:03:06 AMThe majority opinion appears to be that chimps are 1.5x - 2x as strong as an average human, for their body weight. Two things about this:
1. So is the typical D&D Fighter.
2. Chimps weigh less than humans.
Both true, but I would argue not as significant as might be presumed. Weight is less relevant for a brachiating foe which can grapple with all four limbs and tends to jump onto targets at either high speed or from an elevated position, and chimps have the advantage not just of a strength baseline that easily matches all but the most powerful humans known, but of an absolute ferocity of close attack that renders the way most humans are trained to use their strength in combat (i.e. by swinging weapons as levers to increase momentum, or by imposing or evading holds that are based on the assumption of an opponent of roughly equal mass and proportion) much less applicable. Put simply, once the chimp is on his head and biting and tearing, that fighter's equal strength and greater weight isn't going to do him much good.
If you can see the chimp coming and hit him while he's in mid-jump, that of course is different, but the problem is that said chimp is likely to have friends who will also be attacking from the side and behind.
Chimps can bite people's faces off, but they rarely do. While they do kill and can eat meat, they're primarily vegetarians - they're not like wolves or lions that hunt and kill for a living.
As a result, they shouldn't get 'weapon training'. There odds of hitting are low, and the damage they do is pretty good.
Actual Strength covers quite a range - I think 18 is plenty reasonable representing the pinnacle of natural human achievement but they get it without any of that pesky exercise. Given their smaller size it works out about right.
Just gonna leave this here:
Chimps are way smaller but outperform humans by 1.5 which means that maybe 18 isn't enough. Wonder if there's any study that takes into account adrenaline rush...
Source (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5514706/)
It's 1.5 on a mass basis. A big chimp is only 150 lbs, so would have the strength of a muscular 225 lb man. Really strong humans (18) are likely around Lou Ferrigno size, close to 300 lbs.
Quote from: JeremyR on August 13, 2024, 01:23:20 AMIt's 1.5 on a mass basis. A big chimp is only 150 lbs, so would have the strength of a muscular 225 lb man. Really strong humans (18) are likely around Lou Ferrigno size, close to 300 lbs.
So this is likely not a very accurate presentation of how strong a chimp really is. I knew a guy years ago (he was big, 6'2" 235lbs, strong (bench press 405), Trained (he was a purple belt in BJJ in the late 90's, and competed in MMA) and he had an interesting story about wrestling around with a chimp. He had a friend who had an extremely docile female chimp he had trained and "tamed" (as tame as a chimp can get I guess) and he proposed he try wrestling around with her. The guy said the strength of the thing (memory fails me here, but I think he said she was around 80 pounds, certainly no more than 100) was something he had never felt (and this is a guy who had been on a mat with 300 pound muscular men) in his entire life. He said it grabbed him by his left wrist and right ankle, lifted him off the ground and was walking around with him like he was a stuffed animal. He could not break the grip...he said he couldnt even make her arm move trying to pull his arm and leg away from it.
So I think the 1.5 thing by BW might be a gross underrepresentation of their physical strength when it comes to lifting/pulling/tearing things. Their tendon inserts are for maximum force and considerably lower dexterity and fine motor skills. I think testing them on their real strength is hard to do.