Greetings!

Overall, I like the traditional alignment system in old school D&D.

However, when the campaign world is firmly rooted in an ancient/dark ages medieval milieu--there are some huge problems that arise.

The Pre-Christian, Pagan world was a brutal and harsh place, soaked in blood and fire.

Read up on how the Viking Prince, Harald Hardrada, came to power. He was originally usurped, and had to flee Scandinavia. Twenty years later, Hardrada returned to Norway to claim his birthright.

All of his scheming enemies, their families, their retainers, men, women, children--were hunted down and put to the sword.

Charlemagne's ancestor, Chloderic--had his three brothers all slaughtered.

In Russia, Yaroslav, Prince of Kiev, had assassins hunt down his younger brothers, Gleb, and another, and slaughtered them without mercy. Gleb was a Christian, and refused to raise arms against his brother, even sending his bodyguards away. Gleb was still knifed over and over, and killed in the snow. Whatever his Christian morality and principles--he was still dead, and Yaroslav sat in the throne of power.

You find the same kinds of things going on in Ireland, Britain, India, Persia, the Great Steppes, and China.

Lawful Good gets trampled in the mud, and slaughtered. Your family gets slaughtered. Your women, your children. You either rise to the top, and kill your rivals, or you're fucked.

A brutal, harsh kind of morality extends throughout society, at all levels. Children are sold into slavery. Women especially, are booty and sweet meats to be plundered at every opportunity.

How does an alignment system survive in such an environment?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The problem is that the ancient world had no word for "morality" in our sense: the Latin "morales" simply meant "customs," as did the Greek "ethos." What they had instead were the notions of strength and honor. Those were were both strong and honorable were useful to themselves and others, and were honored for it; those who were weak were no good to anyone, while those who applied their strength wrongly were not honorable and were shunned.

The ancient world also drew a much stronger line between Us and Them than we do today. To take an extreme example: what brought shame on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah was not so much the homosexuality angle, or even the fact that they wanted to abuse the foreigner/angel, but that they insisted on exercising their right to do what they pleased with the foreigner after Lot had already granted him hospitality; had they caught him before hand, they would have been within their rights.

So it's a very different value system. My recommendation is either fall back on Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic or interpret Good and Evil in light of some value system other than our own.

Looking at 1e AD&D especially Deities & Demigods, they mostly seem to put a Good label on the gods who represent the dominant/ruling class, and Evil on what they fear - so Zeus (rapist) & Odin (murderer) are Good, while blameless Hades and Hel are Evil.

Candidly, it just doesn't fit the setting you have in mind.  Generally in modern culture the heroes are good.  And while you can play the bad guys in D&D, the game is built around that premise of the players as the good guys.  If you want the players to be the heroes of the setting in the way you described, they can't be good as defined in D&D alignment.  If you want something resembling alignment for such a game it need to have other bases.  I would suggest civilized vs barbarian as one axis.  Assuming a 2-axis system like D&D's is wanted, several possibilities suggest themselves, scientific vs mystical, personal freedom vs social order, and ...  okay, I guess I only have 2.

If that's the tone you're looking for, it doesn't seem like there's anything to be gained from an alignment system. I've played lots of games not using alignment, and it works fine in my opinion.

While life may have been brutal by modern standards, people still have moral codes as Cat the Bounty Smuggler says - but especially as one goes farther back in history, they tend to be less like our own. So there's potential for good and evil labels - but I'm doubtful how useful alignment labels would be in a game as you describe.

As an aside,

Quote from: SHARK on February 02, 2022, 11:05:14 PM
In Russia, Yaroslav, Prince of Kiev, had assassins hunt down his younger brothers, Gleb, and another, and slaughtered them without mercy. Gleb was a Christian, and refused to raise arms against his brother, even sending his bodyguards away. Gleb was still knifed over and over, and killed in the snow. Whatever his Christian morality and principles--he was still dead, and Yaroslav sat in the throne of power.

You find the same kinds of things going on in Ireland, Britain, India, Persia, the Great Steppes, and China.

It's curious to have this as your example since Yaroslav and his brothers Sviatopolk, Boris, and Gleb were all Christians - as was their father Vladimir. This isn't pagans killing Christians, it's Christians killing each other.

Quote from: Mishihari on February 03, 2022, 03:38:33 AM
... I would suggest civilized vs barbarian as one axis.  Assuming a 2-axis system like D&D's is wanted, several possibilities suggest themselves, scientific vs mystical, personal freedom vs social order, and ...  okay, I guess I only have 2.

I'm assuming you are equating personal freedom vs social order to barbarian vs civilized?
Seems to me, following traditions is social order. So maybe Order vs Chaos?

Good and evil do exist.  There are behaviors that are universally reviled, such as theft, murder, assault, rape, and lying.  Even those who practice those behaviors don't want it being done to them.  So if those things can be considered evil, then I would argue that stopping those behaviors (theft, murder, assault, rape, and lying) would make one a good person. 

The problem is, if there is no way to enforce punishment for the evil behaviors, then evil people will just get away with murder (and theft, rape, lying, etc.) and only the strongets bed guys will rule. 

In a fantasy setting like a D&D game, you have gods who actually answer prayers and reward followers who do what each particular god endorses.  Also you have cosmic forces of "good", "evil", "law", "chaos", and "balance" vying for dominence in the universe, each side rewarding the ones who promote it, with power.  So in a way, a fantasy setting is like tye real world dark ages, with gods and powers promoting an agenda, instead of kings, tyrants, or warlords, and the strongest among them will rule. 

I say dump the alignments for this campaign altogether. In such a setting, gods are local and tied to specific lands/peoples and their successes. They don't give a damn about good/evil... they care about the success of their people/preservation of their land. Anything that makes their people stronger is "good" anything that threatens that is "evil."

They are also what D&D calls "distant" gods. They don't manifest or speak directly with mortals... at most they appear in dreams/visions or through divinations by their priests/shamans... maybe an omen/portent if its really dire. Clerics/priests get their spells normally and only lose them (if you're using a system where that's a thing) if their people/the land suffers calamity.

Finally, the clerics are servants of all their people's gods... if the system you're using has domain or spheres for clerics, then those are in line with the culture of the gods' people as a whole or with the land the god is tied to and supporting those aspects are far more important than things like "law/chaos" or "good/evil."

Quote from: Greentongue on February 03, 2022, 06:51:50 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on February 03, 2022, 03:38:33 AM
... I would suggest civilized vs barbarian as one axis.  Assuming a 2-axis system like D&D's is wanted, several possibilities suggest themselves, scientific vs mystical, personal freedom vs social order, and ...  okay, I guess I only have 2.

I'm assuming you are equating personal freedom vs social order to barbarian vs civilized?
Seems to me, following traditions is social order. So maybe Order vs Chaos?

All cultures follow traditions that enforce some type of social order, often with brutal consequences for those who stray from them in the ancient world. And this includes Nordic or "barbaric/pagan" traditions. Alignment is strictly a D&D convention with no direct 1/1 correlation to how things operate in the real world (or even in practice in actual RP).

Even to the degree that you might argue that Order vs Chaos exist as themes in pagan religions, like the ancient Greek (Olympians vs Titans), these are cosmic forces representing the rise of civilization out of the comic goop of creation and the untamed natural forces that are next to impossible to represent in terms of character behavior, but are rather metaphysical concepts that exist in partnership as part of an eternal song and dance weaving the world around us. And all cultures see themselves as the "civilized/Orderly" ones and the "others" as the agents of chaos disrupting their world. Which is why alignment always falls apart and this topic has persisted throughout the history of the RPG hobby.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2022, 03:53:06 AM
If that's the tone you're looking for, it doesn't seem like there's anything to be gained from an alignment system. I've played lots of games not using alignment, and it works fine in my opinion.

While life may have been brutal by modern standards, people still have moral codes as Cat the Bounty Smuggler says - but especially as one goes farther back in history, they tend to be less like our own. So there's potential for good and evil labels - but I'm doubtful how useful alignment labels would be in a game as you describe.

As an aside,

Quote from: SHARK on February 02, 2022, 11:05:14 PM
In Russia, Yaroslav, Prince of Kiev, had assassins hunt down his younger brothers, Gleb, and another, and slaughtered them without mercy. Gleb was a Christian, and refused to raise arms against his brother, even sending his bodyguards away. Gleb was still knifed over and over, and killed in the snow. Whatever his Christian morality and principles--he was still dead, and Yaroslav sat in the throne of power.

You find the same kinds of things going on in Ireland, Britain, India, Persia, the Great Steppes, and China.

It's curious to have this as your example since Yaroslav and his brothers Sviatopolk, Boris, and Gleb were all Christians - as was their father Vladimir. This isn't pagans killing Christians, it's Christians killing each other.

Greetings!

Yeah, Jhkim! Thank you for the extra details. It was late and I had forgotten. Yes, Iused them merely as an example common of the day. While Christian--the Pagan influences were still strong.

I remember being horrified by how Yaroslav had his brothers Boris and Gleb murdered. Boris and Gleb were loyal brothers! And yet, both of them were ruthlessly and brutally hunted down and murdered. A very sad and tragic episode.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I agree with others who have said the trad alignment is out of place in this type of setting. But like others have said, maybe go with just the lawful, neutral, chaotic.

And it's threads like these I love to read. So many great ideas and folks with lots of knowledge about history.

Greetings!

Another wonderful historical episode--in Dark Ages Russia, in the Principality of Kiev, the Princess Olga survived after her husband, the Great Prince, was treacherously murdered by the Drevelians, in the land of Drevelia. Princess Olga entertained a group o Develian diplomats that came to her afterwards, presenting an offer that she should marry their own warlord leader.

Princess Olga pretended to engage with the Drevelian diplomats--but according to the sources, her heart burned with an overwhelming desire or vengeance.

Princess Olga ordered her warriors to board up the great lodge where the Drevelian diplomats were staying. Then, Princess Olga had the building soaked in oil, and burned to the ground. the Drevelian diplomats all burned to death, as Princess Olga stood by, and watched.

Then, Princess Olga marched to the Drevelian lands--before they received word of the diplomats being burned alive--and again, pretended to entertain the proposal that she marry the Drevelian warlord. She said she wanted a token of the Drevelians good intentions, and asked that pidgeons and ravens from each house in the capital city be sent to her, as a gift. The Drevelians agreed, and sent thousands of these birds to her.

As an aside, Princess Olga also seemed to be quite familiar with wearing armour, wielding a sword, and leading warriors in battle. History records also that later on, when the barbarian Pachenegs attacked Kiev from the Steppes, Princess Olga led the defense of the city and fought from the city gates. She was also a Christian, and had numerous churches and monasteries built to spread the Christian faith throughout the land.

Princess Olga ordered her warriors to tie burning cloth to the bird's feet. The birds naturally returned to their homes in the night, seeking refuge. The birds brought flames to the city, setting the whole city on fire during the middle of the night. Having pre-planned all of this, Princess Olga had her army arrive also during the night, and surround the large city.

50,000 people were burned alive.

The survivors staggered out of the burning ruins, and got on their knees before the grim-faced Russian Princess.

Olga remembered her beloved husband being hacked down. Olga was not merciful or kind to the Drevelians.

The Drevelians were crushed, and Olga's rule was strong and secure. Her son would live to grow strong and rule the realm. Olga was triumphant, and the mistress with absolute power and authority.

Princess Olga is celebrated to this day as a great heroine, and a shining example of leadership, strength, love, and loyalty. And a fierce refusal to bow down to foreigners, no matter how strong they appear to be, or how intimidating.

Such heroism and courage, and devotion! And she was *REAL*.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Note to Self: Don't mess with women named Olga, and definitely don't kill their husbands if you want your capital city to persist.

Aside from something Chris mentioned earlier...

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 03, 2022, 07:24:23 AMIn such a setting, gods are local and tied to specific lands/peoples and their successes. They don't give a damn about good/evil... they care about the success of their people/preservation of their land. Anything that makes their people stronger is "good" anything that threatens that is "evil."

...it strikes me that a lot of these historical examples tie loyalty either to nation (particularly as it pertains to external conflicts), a specific family (as it pertains to internal conflicts within the nation), and often both.

So maybe the closest analog to alignment in such a setting would be Allegiance to a Nation within that world, as well as a Family within that nation, and perhaps a leader within that family. Each character would be loyal to a specific Family first, but will also try to advance the interests of their nation when abroad or dealing with foreigners. Some characters may adopt a nation different from their homeland if exiled or taken in by a noble patron prominent within that land. And most of the intrigue will revolve around advancing national interests or the station of their chosen family within their nation.

Quote from: SHARK on February 02, 2022, 11:05:14 PM
Greetings!

Overall, I like the traditional alignment system in old school D&D.

However, when the campaign world is firmly rooted in an ancient/dark ages medieval milieu--there are some huge problems that arise.

The Pre-Christian, Pagan world was a brutal and harsh place, soaked in blood and fire.

Read up on how the Viking Prince, Harald Hardrada, came to power. He was originally usurped, and had to flee Scandinavia. Twenty years later, Hardrada returned to Norway to claim his birthright.

All of his scheming enemies, their families, their retainers, men, women, children--were hunted down and put to the sword.

Charlemagne's ancestor, Chloderic--had his three brothers all slaughtered.

In Russia, Yaroslav, Prince of Kiev, had assassins hunt down his younger brothers, Gleb, and another, and slaughtered them without mercy. Gleb was a Christian, and refused to raise arms against his brother, even sending his bodyguards away. Gleb was still knifed over and over, and killed in the snow. Whatever his Christian morality and principles--he was still dead, and Yaroslav sat in the throne of power.

You find the same kinds of things going on in Ireland, Britain, India, Persia, the Great Steppes, and China.

Lawful Good gets trampled in the mud, and slaughtered. Your family gets slaughtered. Your women, your children. You either rise to the top, and kill your rivals, or you're fucked.

A brutal, harsh kind of morality extends throughout society, at all levels. Children are sold into slavery. Women especially, are booty and sweet meats to be plundered at every opportunity.

How does an alignment system survive in such an environment?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   It can survive, IMO, just as written.  HOWEVER, certain jobs are going to be non starters if for example you are Lawful Good.  You will not be in charge of any large groups with any tension, or at least you wont be in charge for very long.   Lawful Good, IMO has always sort of represented an "extreme" end of a scale, and something you would only expect from rare individuals (adventurers) or completely fantasy kingdoms.  So I think the alignment can survive, I just do not think you are going to have any LG societies. 

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2022, 03:53:06 AM
If that's the tone you're looking for, it doesn't seem like there's anything to be gained from an alignment system. I've played lots of games not using alignment, and it works fine in my opinion.

While life may have been brutal by modern standards, people still have moral codes as Cat the Bounty Smuggler says - but especially as one goes farther back in history, they tend to be less like our own. So there's potential for good and evil labels - but I'm doubtful how useful alignment labels would be in a game as you describe.

This right here.

Put the game ahead of Alignment. YOU know who is "good" and "evil". Let the chips fall where they fall. The setting will speak for itself. The issue about alignment is the reality of certainty within a D&D Setting about the afterlife is a real thing. If you're going fully Medieval - the *presumption* of certainty is what drives conflict. Alignment is not relative, but rather humans are willing to justify the WORST behaviors on the presumption of their righteousness (much like players do with Alignment in D&D anyhow) while committing the atrocities we all know and have read about in history, all in God's name.

That murkiness is a FEATURE not a bug. Drop Alignment, and play! you'll love it.