I have a tomb I want to players to find but not raid. 

Beneath the first dungeon is an ancient tomb.  With some incredibly high level content.  Multi death kight type stuff.  They are first level.  They can't handle it.  I'm not worried about killing them.  I can keep them from waking the guardians, and warn them they aren't ready. My question is will this tomb be hanging over the whole game? I don't ever want them to raid them tomb. I have other things I am more interested in. 

But will they always be wondering if they are high enough level?  Will they always be trying to go back?

If you're more interested in other things, why exactly do you want them to find this tomb so badly?

  This sounds like how JJ Abrams would run an RPG.   I would not do it.  I think you can prevent them from ever exploring, but it will start to look alot like a railroad.

No. If you don't want them to interact with it, don't place it. You CAN put a tomb beneath another tomb and gate it behind some skill checks, but consider that your players might get lucky or persistent enough to find it. But more to the point, why are you spending time on creating content that the players will not interact with and you will not get to use on them?

Quote from: drayakir on July 16, 2022, 10:09:32 AM
No. If you don't want them to interact with it, don't place it. You CAN put a tomb beneath another tomb and gate it behind some skill checks, but consider that your players might get lucky or persistent enough to find it. But more to the point, why are you spending time on creating content that the players will not interact with and you will not get to use on them?

Greetings!

Excellent observations! *Laughing*

I was shaking my head. DM making stuff up that the Players will never engage with? Bad Move.

It can be fairly normal to make stuff up that you intend the Players to engage with...and yet, somehow, they miss it, or decide to go somewhere else entirely. That can happen pretty often. Comes with the territory of DMing.

I would seriously question the wisdom of making stuff up that you don't want the Players to engage with. Then, why make it to begin with? Why even mention it? If Players aren't going to engage it, whatever place such as a dungeon or tomb would simply be better referenced by an ancient book, or even a current scholar or sage, discussing some long-forgotten and now long-lost dungeon tomb. Much better ways to impart particular knowledge to the Players without specifically allowing them or needing them to actually visit the location and engage with it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So what is the purpose of this tomb in the game?

Eg: The king has an army. The PCs are never going to fight it. But its purpose in the game is clear. It's to fight an opposing army and provide the backdrop of war.

Quote from: drayakir on July 16, 2022, 10:09:32 AM
No. If you don't want them to interact with it, don't place it. You CAN put a tomb beneath another tomb and gate it behind some skill checks, but consider that your players might get lucky or persistent enough to find it. But more to the point, why are you spending time on creating content that the players will not interact with and you will not get to use on them?

The short answer is I didn't place it there, it placed itself.

My world needs to live inside my brain for me to want to keep building it and play in it. 
It makes sense for something to be there.  For this kind of a think to be there, a remnant of the truely ancient. 

The players don't have to interact with all my content for me to enjoy making it.  Some of it's just for me.  (With two caveats. 1 I didn't stat it up, I just day dreamed on the way to work. 2. If they want to play with my toys they can. I'm not going to wail and gnash my teeth, take my ball and go home if they try to fight my special snow flake death knight.)


But I've herd what you said.  That Abrams comment really stung. Cause you're right that's exactly the kind of bull shit he would pull.  I'll move the tomb.  Something else old can be there.

This is the kind of mistake I do even today. In my current Call of Cthulhu campaign I'm running "The Condemned" from the supplement Arkham Unveiled - which is already a complex adventure. Since one of the characters in an Archeologist working for the Miskatonic University, I mentioned to him that a dagger had been stolen from a public exhibit and a student was killed.

While, technically, this event happens at this moment of the timeline, it is tied to an adventure which will happen later. I simply reasoned that it was impossible for a Professor who works for the Miskatonic not to be informed that a serious crime had taken place in the University grounds.

Immediately the players decided that this event was tied to "The Condemned". Not even the exhortation to "leave this matter to the Police" deterred the players - because no player will ever listen to a NPC once he has reached a decision. They are trying to tie the dagger to "The Condemned", they are trying to tie the dead student to "The Condemned", they are wondering why they are failing and what they are not doing... generally speaking, the whole original investigation has been abandoned and everything is now a mess.

I'm not pro-railroading. In this very campaign some of the best moment emerged naturally. However, there is a difference between a case like "The Condemned" that can be solved in a variety of ways (for example, some of "the condemned" NPCs can be saved by the investigators if they think fast) and deciding that everything you learn or meet is tied to the main case. Sadly, nine times out of ten the latter happens. Avoid.

This isnt 'checkoves gun' this is player generated railroad.

Easiest solution is to just have the PCs learn that there was such a tomb and that its location was lost or sealed for a reason or whatever. Put it in the history context and 50% of the players will likely dismiss it as history is boring yadda yadda get on wit da lootinz.

The reason why players will lock onto something offhand is because many players have grown up with sessions where the DM usually does not mention something unless it is relevant. If you mention "A mysterious flash of green light was seen on the moon four nights in a row..." Then odds are at least one player is going to pick up on that and once they do odds increase exponentially that they will lock on the more you try to backpedal and dismiss the event.

I never mention anything in the setting unless I am fully prepared to have to deal with players chasing after it relentlessly out of the blue.

You mentioned a green flash on the moon. Now you have one or more players obsessed with getting to the moon and investigating it. This could be anything from researching a teleport spell powerful enough to get there. Or inventing the equivalent of a spelljammer. Or just building an observatory capable of peeping the site. Or preparing to repel the obviously imminent impending invasion from the moon! ETC.

Sometimes you can derail the player generated railroad by just saying the leads have puttered out and they will need to wait for more leads before they can advance. The players will usually mentally bookmark this and wait. Occasionally asking if there's been any new leads.

I find that if you include red herrings in an adventure, you also need a way for players to clearly debunk them if they chase them down.
Assuming they are false of course.  If red herring is a real event connected to some other possible adventure then you better be prepared to run it.

Quote from: Headless on July 16, 2022, 11:32:46 AM

Quote from: drayakir on July 16, 2022, 10:09:32 AM
No. If you don't want them to interact with it, don't place it. You CAN put a tomb beneath another tomb and gate it behind some skill checks, but consider that your players might get lucky or persistent enough to find it. But more to the point, why are you spending time on creating content that the players will not interact with and you will not get to use on them?

The short answer is I didn't place it there, it placed itself.

My world needs to live inside my brain for me to want to keep building it and play in it. 
It makes sense for something to be there.  For this kind of a think to be there, a remnant of the truely ancient. 

The players don't have to interact with all my content for me to enjoy making it.  Some of it's just for me.  (With two caveats. 1 I didn't stat it up, I just day dreamed on the way to work. 2. If they want to play with my toys they can. I'm not going to wail and gnash my teeth, take my ball and go home if they try to fight my special snow flake death knight.)


But I've herd what you said.  That Abrams comment really stung. Cause you're right that's exactly the kind of bull shit he would pull.  I'll move the tomb.  Something else old can be there.

  Sorry about the Abrams comparison, but Lost really pissed me off.   I think you can always just make it a level 20 thing (assuming D&D here) (and that would preclude any players from even talking about it for a very long time, and give you an idea as to whether you want them to go in or not.  Having some special means to gain access to it (pursuing mcguffins across the kingdom(s)) can be a campaign unto itself where the players take a different path while looking for the means to enter.   

The best solution might be to forcibly drag them away from it, so to speak. Say they find the tomb, then a messenger arrives and explains they are summoned to court for this or that reason. Or maybe their best friend is in danger and needs help. Don't be afraid to put them on the railroad, so long as it's interesting.

Why not just let the players learn of the ancient tomb at a much later date in the game? Chekhov's Gun doesn't come into play until the actors find the gun, so have the actors find the gun in the IVth Act and not the Ist.

Also, are we talking Anton or Pavel?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 16, 2022, 04:35:35 PM
The best solution might be to forcibly drag them away from it, so to speak. Say they find the tomb, then a messenger arrives and explains they are summoned to court for this or that reason. Or maybe their best friend is in danger and needs help. Don't be afraid to put them on the railroad, so long as it's interesting.

How convenient, eh? The king's messenger shows up just when we are about to crack the secret of the ancient tomb. What's in there that the king wants kept secret? Maybe the messenger knows. Let's "ask" him. Fire the irons!

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 16, 2022, 05:37:18 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 16, 2022, 04:35:35 PM
The best solution might be to forcibly drag them away from it, so to speak. Say they find the tomb, then a messenger arrives and explains they are summoned to court for this or that reason. Or maybe their best friend is in danger and needs help. Don't be afraid to put them on the railroad, so long as it's interesting.

How convenient, eh? The king's messenger shows up just when we are about to crack the secret of the ancient tomb. What's in there that the king wants kept secret? Maybe the messenger knows. Let's "ask" him. Fire the irons!

heh. I thought the same thing. Thats awfully convenient isnt it? Are we being watched? Is there a spy in the party or retainers? Magical scrying? What dont they want us learning about this thing. What-Are-They-Hiding???

Another simple solution is to just come clean. Pull back the curtain and reveal the truth.

The other is to just roll with it. Juggle a few things so it fits. Modules are not holy writ.