I just read a post on Cyclopeatron's blog: Forbidding Players From Using Crappy Chessex Dice? (http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/12/forbidding-players-from-using-crappy.html)
That post (and some of the comments) left me with one question:
Where on the People - Snacks - Setting - System scale do precision dice go?
It's among the "snacks", I'd say. The consumables of gaming, the dice and maps and character sheets, these sit with the snacks in the way they add to the mood, the ambience.
So it should probably be,
people - snacks & stuff - setting - system
I guess I own too many of the "wrong" dice to be a serious gamer. I'll try to get along somehow.
The Cheetoist Gamers International Club just sent me this memo:
QuoteWhile The Powers agree with Kyle's placement of precision dice in The Hierarchy, that shit just won't fit on the card.
I thought you guys should know.
GS dice are way overrated. I've done some testing and the difference in randomness is not really a big deal. I've got a few sets of GS dice and I still use the cheap dice that came in various basic D&D box sets from over the years.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;427427It's among the "snacks", I'd say. The consumables of gaming, the dice and maps and character sheets, these sit with the snacks in the way they add to the mood, the ambience.
So it should probably be,
people - snacks & stuff - setting - system
Quote from: winkingbishop;427429The Cheetoist Gamers International Club just sent me this memo:
I thought you guys should know.
just...AWESOME...
:rotfl:
have to get some precision d. to go with my presicion snacks etc...
I know some people swear by the Gamescience dice (and I was once called a dice cheat for not using them), but I have not found a significant difference in their use as random number generators over any other dice. I think that all that precision dice crap was nothing more than an effective marketting ploy.
I've never seen anyone that I game with own precision dice or even mention them. If precision dice were really that important, almost every game would use casino quality six-sided dice only.
In a casino where the house's winning margin may be just 1-2% and the dice are rolled literally thousands of times a night, having perfectly random dice, cards, etc is very important.
In a roleplaying game campaign, any particular set of dice are rolled at most a few dozen times a night, and the errors in the randomness of the dice are vanishingly small compared to the added-on randomness of in-play situations, player decisions, GM judgment, whether you need to roll high or low this time or even to roll at all, and so on.
As well, if dice roll consistently well, other players and GM pressure the player to change dice; if they roll consistently badly, the player themselves will change dice.
So I wouldn't sweat it.
I have a couple sets that don't get used. The crappy pits in the dice from the molding process would seem to counter the "precision" benefit.
As a Cheetoist, I know the "best" die is the one closest to your non-greasy hand.
Some of the people at their GenCon booth were arrogant beyond belief. I bought a set of their dice just to see if they are worthwhile, but after dealing with one of their smug reps a second time, I probably won't buy from them again.
Quote from: jeff37923;427453I think that all that precision dice crap was nothing more than an effective marketting ploy.
Some studies seem to indicate otherwise (linked in the comments to that blog post (http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/12/forbidding-players-from-using-crappy.html)).
The funny thing is that a test (conducted by blogger ze bullete (http://dungeonsndigressions.blogspot.com/2010/12/do-it-yourself-polyhedral-dice.html)) between a handmade
paper d8 and a GS d8 showed that the paper one's results were
less skewed than that of the precision die...! (But then, he only rolled a hundred times, which is not enough for a real test.)
You can see on which side of the fence I am when I show you my favourite D&D dice:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xfOyBn2ninU/S0yFmdS4nBI/AAAAAAAAAKo/BzENV1gSqIA/s400/poly.jpg)
My problem with GS dice is that they look ugly (IMHO) and don't feel "right". They are uncomfortable to roll.
I recently did some tests on my d6's and the GS dice came in last for fairness-
http://www.hackslash.net/?p=1027
I'm not particularly happy about the inaccuracy of most dice either. Having said that, if a DM wants me to use one particular set of super-precise dice (or whatever), he's welcome to buy a set for me and then have it shipped all the way to Hungary out of his own pocket.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;427468In a roleplaying game campaign, any particular set of dice are rolled at most a few dozen times a night, and the errors in the randomness of the dice are vanishingly small compared to the added-on randomness of in-play situations, player decisions, GM judgment, whether you need to roll high or low this time or even to roll at all, and so on.
Have a dying half-elf bardette and a valiant knight jumping between her and the vile orcs, and you will be 100% sure that the "1" needed to have the knight's waraxe smash on her face instead of on a random orc will come up. No "randomness" here. I have personally seen dying bardettes implore valiant knights to stay the hell away in my games.
The blog post in the OP really sends up my "control freak" flag. If any GM "forbid" me from using a particular brand of dice in his game, I'd quietly leave the game and never come back.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;427484Some studies seem to indicate otherwise (linked in the comments to that blog post (http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/12/forbidding-players-from-using-crappy.html)).
Yes, yes, and 4 out of 5 dentists surveyed prefer Dentyne gum for their patients who chew gum.....
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;427484My problem with GS dice is that they look ugly (IMHO) and don't feel "right". They are uncomfortable to roll.
I like them because of their aesthetics, when it comes down to the heart of the matter.
Quote from: jeff37923;427554Yes, yes, and 4 out of 5 dentists surveyed prefer Dentyne gum for their patients who chew gum.....
No, those are dentist's wifes...
I thought most of the "studies" done between GS and its competitors were from years ago before quality control got better at Chessex?
The reason I use Gamescience dice is because they look pretty and distinctive.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Melan/ZocchiDice_0000.jpg)
Except d6s. I don't use numbered d6s.
I love dice and will use lots of different kinds. There are bad dice--some are so bad you can eyeball the distortions. Some are so round they make better marbles than dice. Some are just gimmicky and silly looking. Some are good dice--clean edges, easily read numbers or pips, sturdy materials, attractive. All wear unevenly, causing them to be less scientifically accurate over time. All that fairness aside, Gamescience dice are best.
I use GS dice because I like dice that stop rolling shortly after being dropped.
My Black and Glow-In-The-Dark sets are my go-to dice.
However, I also have a sweet set of old baby blue boxed set dice (same plastic as the Star Frontiers set...they look like this: http://bit.ly/gB2WiB ) that I use when I need luck, or feel nostalgic.
Hey everyone! I made the blog post that sparked this thread...
After some reflection, I made a post clarifying my opnion (http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/12/understanding-crappy-dice-apologists.html)...
I just want to set the record straight that I openly invite all my players to use whatever weird juju dice they want. I've never asked a player not to use their own dice. Players using their own dice is a fun part of roleplaying tradition that I value greatly.
On the other hand I do think it's a DM's responsibility to use the fairest-rolling dice that they can, within practicality.:D
Quote from: cyclopeatron;427585Hey everyone! I made the blog post that sparked this thread...
After some reflection, I made a post clarifying my opnion (http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/12/understanding-crappy-dice-apologists.html)
I responded at your follow up blog post, but I'll also put the response here.
Quote from: cyclopeatron's blog postIn boardgaming, likewise I could scarcely imagine a player showing up to a game of Settlers of Catan or Stone Age with their own funky dice for their own personal use. This would immediately create suspicion amongst the other players, whether it was at a tournament or a dining room table. So why is this okay in roleplaying games?
You state that it's outrageous to use normal six sided dice in roleplaying games then but state that it's outrageous to not use normal six sided dice in board games. Surely, if it's simply about the statistical variation of rolls, the same adherence would make playing a board game with the dice it comes with impossible. Either you choose to replace all games that use d6's with casino quality dice or you just use what's at the table and live with it. So in the end, the reason that it's okay to bring a normal set of dice to a rpg session is the same reason that you use a normal set of dice in Settlers of Catan or any board game. It's good enough given the stakes.
Quote from: cyclopeatron;427585Hey everyone! I made the blog post that sparked this thread...
After some reflection, I made a post clarifying my opnion (http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/12/understanding-crappy-dice-apologists.html)...
I just want to set the record straight that I openly invite all my players to use whatever weird juju dice they want. I've never asked a player not to use their own dice. Players using their own dice is a fun part of roleplaying tradition that I value greatly.
On the other hand I do think it's a DM's responsibility to use the fairest-rolling dice that they can, within practicality.:D
Just so you know, a Warhammer 40K IRC channel I linked your original post to is now full of people making fun of you for being a completely anal nimrod.
Get a life pal. Games are supposed to be fun, and dice not being 99.9999 percent perfect isnt anything to worry about unless some douchebag is using loaded dice.
Quote from: Captain Rufus;427596Just so you know, a Warhammer 40K IRC channel I linked your original post to is now full of people making fun of you for being a completely anal nimrod.
It is with great pride that I learn 40K players belittle me!:D
Two flamebait posts in a row followed by "gee, I'm just bewildered that people are riled up by my deliberate attempt to rile them up!" You must have been taking blogging lessons from Gareth-Michael Skarka. :teehee:
My hats off to you, sir, you have officially Generated a Controversy(TM)
Only on the internet...
Upon reflection, I must admit that Cheetoism (ie, me) is divided on this issue. In the spirit of "shut the fuck up and roll the dice" or "the game must go on," I say, use whatever damned dice you want, who cares really.
But then I think of my friend who paid $70 for a set of copper dice. Seventy bucks for a bunch of dice is just so stupidly geeky and pointless we have to praise it.
However he made no claims as to their randomness. So perhaps it's not so divided after all - geeking out in a silly way remains the key tenet of Cheetoism.
I apologize for my snarky response to "Captain Rufus". I don't browse forums often and I'm not used to the flamebaiting. I should have just ignored him.:(
I think the point of my last blog post has been misinterpreted a bit. I was mostly musing on the symbolic meanings dice have for players beyond functioning solely as randomizers. I was also musing, with sincere affection, on why roleplayers have a higher tolerance for inaccurate randomization as compared to card players or boardgamers.
As far as I'm concerned players should use whatever dice make them most happy, whether it's for nostalgic, aesthetic, superstitious, or economic reasons. As a DM and player it makes me happy to use GameScience dice for the reasons I describe. I think the pumpkin opaques look really cool too!
Cheers!
We used to game at Zocchi's old store and it was really funny when he would talk about how 'razor sharp' the dice were. It gave birth to lots of jokes about deadly ninja throwing dice. In one game of modern day CoC that a friend was running we wound up scattering a bunch of d4s in the path of the cultists to slow them down.
I stepped on a Gamescience D4 before they chopped the tips off. I think I would have rather stepped on a caltrop. Having a triangle shaped hole punched in the bottom of my foot wasn't fun. It made everyone at the table laugh though, except the guy whose rug I bled on. :D
GS Dice rock. Mine:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs446.ash1/24606_406046558975_691103975_5128422_8254258_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs451.ash1/24820_430568733975_691103975_5461140_280050_n.jpg)
Got some glow-in-the-dark too. They're awesome.
I don't have a picture of them here, though. Not yet, anyway.
I have never, ever encountered this problem. When I have encountered cheating it has never been as subtle as 'non-random' dice. It as always out and out lying. I don't imagine that I will ever comment to anyone about what type of dice they use.
Quote from: Tetsubo;427709I have never, ever encountered this problem. When I have encountered cheating it has never been as subtle as 'non-random' dice. It as always out and out lying. I don't imagine that I will ever comment to anyone about what type of dice they use.
Yeah, any cheating that I've encountered hasn't been through loaded or faulty dice.
Quote from: Drohem;427716Yeah, any cheating that I've encountered hasn't been through loaded or faulty dice.
See how good they were at cheating? You didn't even notice ;)
Re Settlers of Catan or casino craps, it's the norm to share the equipment. You pass the dice, and if there's something wrong with them, everybody's suffering the same inaccuracy.
Rpgs have developed a very different tradition where having your own set of dice is like a rite of confirmation. Sharing and borrowing of dice isn't necessarily taboo, but it's preferable that you can roll 3d8 all from your own pile. Eventually, the stereotypical player will have a medicine bag of fetish dice, each with their individual histories. It's a peculiarity of rpgs, which are generally not competitive and don't involve wagering.
If somebody wants to roll damage with the d12 from their original Gamma World set, who really cares? If somebody insists on using their pair of iron d6 in a Catan game, while everybody else is using the wooden dice from the box, it's gonna look dodgy. If you decide to use your own dice in a crap game, your ass is going to the emergency room, or to jail.
Re Chessex vs. Gamescience, Chessex makes and sells "cheater's dice" with no 1, and two 20s. Gamescience doesn't.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;427606Upon reflection, I must admit that Cheetoism (ie, me) is divided on this issue. In the spirit of "shut the fuck up and roll the dice" or "the game must go on," I say, use whatever damned dice you want, who cares really.
But then I think of my friend who paid $70 for a set of copper dice. Seventy bucks for a bunch of dice is just so stupidly geeky and pointless we have to praise it.
However he made no claims as to their randomness. So perhaps it's not so divided after all - geeking out in a silly way remains the key tenet of Cheetoism.
Sir, I would respectfully submit that the sentiment of
"I say, use whatever damned dice you want, who cares really." is the least compelling thus far presented.
I believe it's much more fun and geeky for people to love and care about their colorful little number randomizers; whether it's for nostalgia, aesthetics, accuracy, or superstition. Being too cool to care about your dice is not geeky. It's fun to see people posting pictures of their favorite dice, whether they be GameScience or dirty old Dragon Dice from the 80s. The length of this thread clearly shows that people care about their dice, which is wonderful!
Being new here I'm not sure what the Cheeto scale is, exactly, but I would demand a place for polyhedrals! They are the one of the funnest and geekiest material manifestations of our wayward hobby.
Dice are just a fun and necessary evil for most games. I don't think they deserve a special place on the Cheetoist scale. Mine certainly don't. :D
Quote from: Benoist;427654(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs451.ash1/24820_430568733975_691103975_5461140_280050_n.jpg)
Okay, those are some pretty-looking dice.
I was tired of always having white, black, grey, red dice. I wanted something more ... colorful. More cheerful. And after my experiment with the translucent dice (the first picture in my post), I knew I wanted solid dice I could use in most settings. That's how I decided to go for these colors. :)
Quote from: cyclopeatron;427734Being new here
Welcome to this internet hive of scum and villainy...
QuoteI'm not sure what the Cheeto scale is, exactly, but I would demand a place for polyhedrals!
I believe they
have their place:
QuoteThe Cheetoist Philosophy We game for the snacks. And also the dice. But mostly, just to hang out with friends and tell tall stories.
Source: http://cheetoism.pbworks.com/w/page/9794883/FrontPage
Quote from: Benoist;427751I was tired of always having white, black, grey, red dice. I wanted something more ... colorful. More cheerful. And after my experiment with the translucent dice (the first picture in my post), I knew I wanted solid dice I could use in most settings. That's how I decided to go for these colors. :)
Where did you get 'em? Because now I want some.
//www.gamestation.net is currently the official seller of gamescience dice. They redid their site, it looks like a casino supply site now and is harder to search, but they have all the translucent and opaque colors (which is a damn LOT).
I hate GameScience.
Because that goddamn video of him pitching is awesome. I swear, you can think he's crazy, but he is one of the best salespeople I've seen in tabletop gaming.
That, and because I secretly want to buy like a pound of the things, but then I'd feel obligated to toss my "inferior" dice because I'd probably never use them again. Well, except for the d6's and fudge dice, cause six-siders don't suffer quite as badly as d20s when it comes to the "weird odds" thing.
*grumble grumble*
Seriously, though, some AD&D books, some hexmaps, a pile of Gamescience dice...
Quote from: Peregrin;427804That, and because I secretly want to buy like a pound of the things, but then I'd feel obligated to toss my "inferior" dice because I'd probably never use them again.
As you may already be aware, gamescience offers the option of buying the dice by the pound (http://www.gamestation.net/Featured-Sale-Items/1-Pound-Box-of-GameScience-Dice).
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;427779Where did you get 'em? Because now I want some.
I got them from Amazon of all places (I painted the numbers myself using Staedler pens).
Look right here! (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_16?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gamescience+dice&x=0&y=0&sprefix=gamescience+dice) :)
Quote from: Cole;427809As you may already be aware, gamescience offers the option of buying the dice by the pound (http://www.gamestation.net/Featured-Sale-Items/1-Pound-Box-of-GameScience-Dice).
That's what I was referencing. :)
I have so many dice already, though. A lot of them are very poor quality (lots of random ones I picked up that are below Chessex quality), but I just feel like I'd be buying something I already own, just better. But then I have twice as many dice sitting on my shelf! :/
Not to mention, nearly everything I own other than D&D uses a significant amount of d6s.
The Gamescience dice are nice but I've never owned any... I never much cared about the dice I used for RPGs... or rather, I cared more about how they looked/felt than whether they rolled truly random. My dice collection is MUCH smaller than most gamers I know.
I am a bit pickier about the dice I use in wargames... unlucky dice there get put out to pasture.
Quote from: Benoist;427810I got them from Amazon of all places (I painted the numbers myself using Staedler pens).
Look right here! (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_16?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gamescience+dice&x=0&y=0&sprefix=gamescience+dice) :)
Thanks, Benoist. I might order up a set for Christmas.
You can get good deals on amazon, but gamestation has the best selection, including some rare tiger's eye gamescience dice that they're unloading.
Quote from: Peregrin;427804That, and because I secretly want to buy like a pound of the things, but then I'd feel obligated to toss my "inferior" dice because I'd probably never use them again.
I haven't used my other dice since I bought my Gamescience sets. Consider this a warning. :cool:
Zocchi is an obnoxious old fart and comparing GameScience/GameStation dice to casino dice is rather disingenuous.
The GS dice are cast just like the rest of the competition. Sure, they're not tumbled and painted, but they're NOT machined like Casino dice to ensure their precision, and they're not machined to remove those ugly-ass clip marks.
Edit: Not to mention the numbers - while such a minute difference, aren't casino dice dyed/painted with the pips, rather than having them engraved/indented like the numbers on the GS dice? Even as minute as it is, there's probably some micro-difference in the weight of one side vs. another due to the material carved out for a physically larger number.
As other's pointed out, there really isn't a significantly higher level of randomization from the GS dice.
I've got a bunch of GS dice. I like them a lot, but they're nothing special over my Chessex, Koplow or Crystal Caste dice.
What a weird question, the OP. I would think that with this anti-philosophy in particular, such a thing wouldn't matter in the least. It is irrelevant. Things like dice don't really matter in Cheetoism because its not really a gaming ideology, its a retarded way of trying to show you're a hipster and much more "in" than those other hipsters who go around doing Theory.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;427820Thanks, Benoist. I might order up a set for Christmas.
You're welcome, mate. :)
Finally got mine in the mail and got them inked. I made a few mistakes along the way, so they're not as immaculate as yours, Benoist, but I'm still happy with them.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/ticopelp/Mobile%20Uploads/mms_picture-10.jpg)
Looking forward to trying them out at game this weekend.
Sorry for the crappy photo.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;427519The blog post in the OP really sends up my "control freak" flag. If any GM "forbid" me from using a particular brand of dice in his game, I'd quietly leave the game and never come back.
I'm 100% with you on this. Despite having a whole bag full of GS dice because I am a notoriously bad roller, if any GM tried to make me use any particular set of dice, I would find myself a new game, or make my own group. That's a bit too far IMO.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;430260Finally got mine in the mail and got them inked. I made a few mistakes along the way, so they're not as immaculate as yours, Benoist, but I'm still happy with them.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/ticopelp/Mobile%20Uploads/mms_picture-10.jpg)
Looking forward to trying them out at game this weekend.
Sorry for the crappy photo.
Dude, these are awesome! The lime green ones are totally cool! I need some of those nao. :D
Quote from: Benoist;427810I got them from Amazon of all places (I painted the numbers myself using Staedler pens).
Look right here! (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_16?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gamescience+dice&x=0&y=0&sprefix=gamescience+dice) :)
Just used plain old Sharpies on mine. I'll have to get a photo of 'em to post when i get home later.
Quote from: Sigmund;430277Just used plain old Sharpies on mine. I'll have to get a photo of 'em to post when i get home later.
I used a wax pencil and holy fuck, never use a wax pencil.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;430288I used a wax pencil and holy fuck, never use a wax pencil.
:teehee:
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;430288I used a wax pencil and holy fuck, never use a wax pencil.
I tried with a wax crayon and it was kind of a botch for me.