Quote from: James J SkachNo Jimmy, C'mon.  You're letting your (sometimes justified) hatred of Pundy get in the way of your thinking.

I'd assume that the men who you knew who played basketball were tall and black. Is that some weird interpretation of what were trying to say? Sheesh.

My response was to you. It had nothing to do with Pundit apart from being situated near some replies to him. With all the uproar I went back and read the statement, and it's quite plainly only referencing the people he knows and the music they listen to. It takes a biased reading that's looking for trouble to see that sentence as saying that commercial = shit, and apply it to everything.

Quote from: James McMurrayMy response was to you. It had nothing to do with Pundit apart from being situated near some replies to him. With all the uproar I went back and read the statement, and it's quite plainly only referencing the people he knows and the music they listen to. It takes a biased reading that's looking for trouble to see that sentence as saying that commercial = shit, and apply it to everything.

Awww..Jimmy, C'mon.  I'm trying to be civil here. Are we going to have a spat now?

I agree with that it's quite plainly only referencing the people he knows and the shit, commerical music to which they listen.

I disagree that it takes a biased reading looking for trouble. Given that he was using the entire post as an anaolgy to RPG's, it takes on a completely different context. Since I was one who questioned his - arrogance, I believe I called it - am I some kind of wildly biased RPG war-monger? I don't believe I've ever said a word about Exalted or just about any of the other games discussed. I don't or haven't played them, so I keep my mouth shut. But I am keen to subtle, often unintended, jibes like judging harshly people who continue to play a game they like while ignoring new games - like people who listen to shit, commerical music instead of the stuff I go out of my way to find. Hey, don't blame me, didn't make up the analogy

But I've said in followup posts that I'll go with the benefit of the doubt and assume I've misread something.  I've then asked for some clarification through followup questions.  Alas, I'm being, apparently, lumped with Pundy and Sett and avoided. C'est La Vie!

I hate it when both James's post in the same thread.  I eventually mix up which one said what.

You know, if I don't ready closely, this begins to look like that Good Kirk/Bad Kirk episode of Star Trek.

!i!

Y'know... I was reading this thread all in one go. I have no problems standing up and saying...


'Y'know, I think D&D is commercial and shit'.  I do think Ian's evasiveness, either way, seriously contributed* to the mess that this thread has become.

Of course, I also have to hedge a bit and admit that I've long since come to terms with the 'lowest common denominator' factor, and the fact that using 'Commercial' and 'LCD' to deride something is horribly elitest behavior.

 
That said, Yes, exalted is 'main stream'... at least enough for the purposes of discussion. Its young yet, but it does have quite a bit of 'mainstream' cred for RPG purposes. It has the sales, the visible groups, the forums... most of all White Wolf is notably the only company/game other than D&D to get non-RPG products based off their games in other media. The Vampire TV series, the Exalted Comic Books line (what ever happened to that).

Sorry, that is MainStream.

Hey, as long as I get the babes like James T.

Look - I'll apologize.  I was grumpy and yelled J'accuse! before asking the questions for clarification - which I'd still like because I don't know Ian from Adam and it's always nice to know where people are coming from when you read them as it helps address some of these very communication issues.  But this whole fight has resulted in something that is interesting to me.

Is it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

Do people think that D&D/D20 suffers from being commercially successful? Is the idea the commercially successful = lower quality prevalent? To the OP, is it more prevalent in Internet Forum/Chat realms than in the much broader gaming community? How do these perspectives differ?

Quote from: James J SkachIs it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

Do people think that D&D/D20 suffers from being commercially successful? Is the idea the commercially successful = lower quality prevalent?

I'll go with no, no, and no.

See, it takes straight-talling Illini to get a straight answer

James, I don't think we're going to have a spat. I was just pointing out that my response had nothing to do with Pundit. It wasn't an attack, just a clarification based on something you'd said.

And don't you mean "get the ladies like James M?"

Spike, I've never read the comics apart from the ones in the rulebooks, but it looks like the series is still alive.

Quote from: jrientsDude, I usually have the deepest respect for your opinions, but you've gone off the rails here.  Pundit pushes.  You push back.  Where did freedom of expression evaporate?

And the day Pundit bans someone for having incompatible tastes is the day this whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  And I'll be among the first out the door.  The fact that anybody can come right back at him full throttle is the only thing on this board that gives Pundit any moral high ground.  If he were stupid enough to give that up, he'd be giving up the whole show.

He's already modded one person in the past for disagreeing with him too loudly and too often.  

He's shown a relentless paranoia that has no indication of ever abating.  

He has the manner and discourse of a Catholic inquisitor.  

It's only a matter of time, man.  Right now, it's just pathetic attempts at browbeating, but how long before that's not enough to satisfy him?

I do apologize however, because in pointing out this obvious path he's already taken slowly but surely, I gave him an out to avoid addressing the other issue of my post, which was that with his very determination to hound Ian over a matter of taste still contradicts his own point about tastes not equalling market reality.

Quote from: SpikeI do think Ian's evasiveness, either way, seriously contributed* to the mess that this thread has become.

Really?  Try this on for size:

Chester: Hey, Spike, check out that chick over there.
Spike: Wha...?  Oh.  Hunh.
Chester: What do you mean, "Hunh"? Don't you think she's hot?
Spike: Doesn't do much for me, no.
Chester: What are you, some kind of homo?
Spike: Fuck you.
Chester: You didn't answer my question.  Yes or no: Are you a homo?
Spike: That has nothing to do with whether or not I find that woman attractive, so I'm not going to dignify the question with an answer.
Chester: I think it might have a bearing on your opinion.  If you're a homo, you're not attracted to women -- you're attracted to dick.
Spike: Now, see, Chester, you're being an offensive prick in addition to asking an irrelevant question.
Chester: God, you can't even give a straight answer.  What are you afraid of?
Spike: Nothing.  You're just being a prick and asking an irrelevant question.
Chester: You're afraid of being exposed as a homosexual.  Now answer the question, yes or no.

...and so on and so forth.  Sound a little familiar?  You could have nipped the entire matter in the bud simply by telling Chester that you're not gay, even though it had no bearing on anything, and even though it's none of his business, and even though, if he could have been troubled to think on the matter for a moment, he'd recall all the women he's seen you with since he's known you.  But Chester's being an asshole.  Do you really want to let him have his way and answer his irrelevant and insulting question?

!i!

Apparently, I'll get get t-bagged by the majority here for saying this, but what the fuck.

Ian, you're being a prick. Enough of this passive-resistance shit. Just directly answer the fucking question. Don't post links, or refer posters to previous statements, or any other bullshit.

I'm sure you're getting an "internet erection" from stringing Sett and Pundit along, but your little routine is getting old and tired.

Is D&D commercial. Yes or no?

Is D&D shit? Yes or no?

After answering, discuss it. Or don't. But please just answer directly. Choose a position, and stand by it. If you won't do that, then stop pushing Sett's and Pundit's buttons. You're not the wronged party here. You're deliberately fucking with them, and you know it.

And please, until Ian answers the fucking question, let's not sidetrack this discussion into the Forge/Proxy War, or the "why try something new if you're having fun" argument. Okay? Thanks.

QuoteIs it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

Yes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI'm curious.  When was the last time someone did this to you?

Why does it have to be done to me?

Seanchai

Well, Ian, as an asexual pokemon, I assure you that I have only witnessed that type of conversation. Typically it ends in roughly a third the time as the guy goes:

What? of course not, dipshit.

Maybe accompanied by a slap upside the head or counteraccusations of homosexuality.


By not answering the question, you artificially drag the converastion on, and then you get on a high horse by saying 'I shouldn't have to answer that'... should or should not haves don't factor into it.

I've also seen that conversation end with 'Yeah, Gimmee your body baby!' usually accompanied by exaggerated flamboyant behavior.  While not actually answering the question in any meaningful way, it avoids that 'evasive guilt' phenomenon that you seem to think is abnormal behavior.