Chatting with a "Normal" roleplayer

Ian Absentia · May 22, 2007, 02:03:45 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditThe truth is that anything outside of those few games my brother mentioned (and one or two others possibly, like maybe GURPS) is not and will never be mainstream. It is a testament to people's abilities to delude themselves to think anything else.

Enh. Most people I know listen to shit, commercial music, too. I enjoy turning them on to stuff I had to go out of my way to find.

Your point appears to be that most people keep their taste planted firmly in their mouths. Is that a virtue, or an insult?

!i!

Pierce Inverarity · May 22, 2007, 02:11:08 PM

There's some confusion of terms here.

When people say Scion is "mainstream," I suspect the argument is not about sales figures but about playstyle. As in, Scion is a mainstream game in all aspects but cash flow. Personally, I'd say it's actually a mainstream game through and through. By all accounts it's selling quite well. Unsurprisingly--it's clearly tailored to people who play mainstream games like WoD and Exalted.

When other people say DitV has popular appeal, I suspect the argument is about non-gamer appeal. As in, DitV is a game not for gamers (not even mainstream gamers) but for, uh, people-in-general. If that is indeed the point, then it remains to be proven.

James J Skach · May 22, 2007, 02:32:02 PM

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaEnh. Most people I know listen to shit, commercial music, too. I enjoy turning them on to stuff I had to go out of my way to find.

Your point appears to be that most people keep their taste planted firmly in their mouths. Is that a virtue, or an insult?

!i!

The flaw in your logic, sir, is the implied commercial music = shit music. It's also interesting that you seem to define "stuff you had to go out of your way to find" as better or more worthy than commercial music.

And see, to that, I say bollocks.

You've simply substituted the decision of many people with yours, along the way implying that your tastes are better than the taste of all those other people. It's the height of arrogance.

Kester Pelagius · May 22, 2007, 02:44:47 PM

Quote from: James J SkachI love when language is so overly bias you can see it clearly. Good on ya, mate, for coming right out and almost answering the question - hell, it's almost rhetorical!

We try. But the battle against the soulless minions of corporate Orthodoxy is a thankless task and there are voracious swine laying in wait to devour the polished pearls of our endeavoringly effortless toil! :insane:

Kester Pelagius · May 22, 2007, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: James J SkachIt's why this argument comes up over and over again - because nobody has good hard sales or marketing numbers, only speculation. And while it's true that not eveyone who buys a game plays it, it's as close as you're going to get to any understanding of the market.

Which may be part of the problem.

The market is, naturally, sales driven. Commercially trends in RPGs are gauged not on what people are actually playing but rather on sales figures. Thus, if D20 is the big seller at Borders, the number crunchers look at the figures and, rightly or wrongly, assume that means D20 is popular. They don't ask what other games or even if other games are stocked because they don't care. Their only interest is in what is selling, not what people are actually playing.

I think that's where some people get confused.

Ian Absentia · May 22, 2007, 02:57:35 PM

Quote from: James J SkachThe flaw in your logic, sir, is the implied commercial music = shit music. It's also interesting that you seem to define "stuff you had to go out of your way to find" as better or more worthy than commercial music.

No, you see, you didn't read that correctly. I specifically wrote "shit, commercial music. "Shit music" is the intent of that statment; "commercial" merely modifies that statement. The music is shit, whether it's commercial or not. I also didn't suggest that "stuff I had to go out of my way to find" is better or more worthy; I clearly stated that I simply enjoy turning them on to something they can't encounter when they don't look outside their accustomed sphere of influence. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they hate it, but they come away with something more than they started with.

Now that I've spelled it out for you, apply that clarification to this discussion. Go look for a fight somewhere else.

!i!

Settembrini · May 22, 2007, 03:01:13 PM

So Johnny Cash is shit?
Pink Floyd is shit?
The Beatles are shit (well, if you ask me they are, but that´s a different subject...)?

Ian Absentia · May 22, 2007, 03:06:58 PM

Sturgeon's Law: 95% of everything is crap.

But, please, actually read what I wrote. Separate "shit" from "commercial". Combine them where necessary or appropriate.

And veering wildly back on topic, I'll re-assert that proclaiming ignorance of anything outside the mainstream, commercial frame of reference as a virtue is some pretty specious thinking. That seems to be the point of Pundit's original post, and a number of his follow-ups.

!i!

Settembrini · May 22, 2007, 03:23:57 PM

So the question remains:

Do you think D&D is commercial & shit?

Ian Absentia · May 22, 2007, 03:29:03 PM

Quote from: SettembriniSo the question remains:

Do you think D&D is commercial & shit?

That was never the question. If you're trying to be provocative, you'll have to work harder.

If the purported "normal gamer" has never been exposed to any games outside of the local favorites, that's not a virtue -- that's a deficit. The local favorites might be Exalted and NWoD like they are at one store I visit, or D&D and its attendant variants like at another store I visit.

How's that for staying on topic?

!i!

Settembrini · May 22, 2007, 03:44:35 PM

No, you´re dodging the question.

If D&D is a fantastic game, why should one try something different, when you´re having fun with it twice a week?

Please explain that.

Koltar · May 22, 2007, 03:46:42 PM

D&D/D20 is Commercial, some people think its "shit"....but it still sells and keeps game stores going at times.

Anything that has steady spurts of sales popularity and that keeps getting me paychecks - I'm very in favor of.
- Even if I don't play it.

- Ed C.

Ian Absentia · May 22, 2007, 03:48:06 PM

I've dodged nothing. Having fun playing the one game you've ever been exposed to? Great. Do you consider that limited exposure a virtue, though? No, it's not.

See, Sett? You really have to try harder.

!i!

brettmb2 · May 22, 2007, 03:50:47 PM

Quote from: SettembriniNo, you´re dodging the question.

If D&D is a fantastic game, why should one try something different, when you´re having fun with it twice a week?

Please explain that.

Why not? What's wrong with trying something different? If I love Chinese food, for example, and eat it twice a week, it doesn't mean I want to eat it every day.

I mean really, why do these threads always devolve?

Settembrini · May 22, 2007, 03:50:56 PM

So searching around for a game because you are an unhappy camper is virtueous?