Quote from: beejazzWell, how many books are being sold doesn't necessarily correlate with how many games are being played. DnD happens to have a kickass marketing strategy, in that they sell to the players. You can really only sell supplements aimed at DMs/GMs specifically to one member of any given game group. The "Complete" "Races" and "Tome" series? Sell to players. And GMs for that matter.

Just a thought.

Oh yeah, right. D&D sells something like 100 times the amount of product that any other RPG does, but in fact there are just more people buying it. In reality way more people are actually playing Nobilis... :rolleyes:

That's fucking insane.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RI think the whole point of getting Ian to commit to a yes or no answer is to feed into the Pundit's and Sett's idea that there is a war going on. You see when the Pundit goes on about conviction it really means that he and the few of his ilk around here have rather extreme views about rpgs...and they are probably the only ones.

"Exalted, DitV, insert any game you hate and it's players are scum and Swine" is something which is extremely foreign to most gamers esp those who only play D&D...I say this because IME most people I know play mostly D&D.

So you have got to have an enemy, right? You have got to have folks who have the total opposite views that you have. So then you have a WAR. Then the next time Sett and/or the Pundit can go, "well Ian hates D&D, he's evidence of the Swine we keep talking about".

Let's ignore the tone of your post for a moment and analyze the substance, shall we?

Ian could easily stop all of this by saying "No, I don't believe that D&D is shit".
He could also at least prove himself a man by saying "yes, I believe D&D is shit, and I'm prepared to defend my position".

You can keep slinging mud at Sett and me all you like, but the one guy who is solely responsible for the derailing of this thread is the coward who is so unsure of his own convictions that he cannot answer the fucking question posed to him!

To suggest that this is all some kind of an elaborate frame on my and Sett's part is just stupid. Ian could have ended this at any time by ANSWERING THE FUCKING QUESTION.

RPGPundit

Quote from: grubmanWish I had time to read the whole thread, but I have to run to work.  From reading the OP, I just have to say you are right (at least in my experience).  Most gamers play D&D and know of a few other random games they may try once or twice.

It's a misconception of people who post on RPG forums that all gamers are as anal as them.

Sometimes I wish I was one of those gamers myself.  It would often be a lot less frustrating.

Well, one of the shocking things is just how absolutely determined they are to play D20 and nothing else. In my brother's case I find myself in the amusing position of having to convince him to give Qin a try, or WFRP, and that no, True20 is basically just like D20 and he'll figure it out right away, etc etc.
Its not me who's telling the Swine that normal roleplayers don't want what they're selling, its the normal roleplayers themselves.

QuoteA good example is Savage Worlds.  It gets a lot of hype on forums, and , the local game stores all stock at least a couple books...but I've yet to find one REAL person (gamer) who ever even heard of the game.

My brother certainly hasn't.  He has heard of Deadlands, but he refuses to play it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou can keep slinging mud at Sett and me all you like, but the one guy who is solely responsible for the derailing of this thread is the coward who is so unsure of his own convictions that he cannot answer the fucking question posed to him!

So what you're saying is that he flew down to Uruguay, stuck his dick to your forehead, and shouted "Hound me for answers or I blow a load in your eyes!" Then when you refused he hacked into your account and posted all of your derailments himself?

Or will you admit you played a part? Well, yes or no, motherfucker? did you post derailments or not?

See how stupid that looks?

Quote from: RPGPunditIn South America Exalted is nonexistent.  There are people here who play vampire and werewolf, but no one plays Exalted. But I was also talking about Canada. You can't just use the excuse of it being a "third world backwater" to wriggle out of that.

First, "third world backwater" is your own phrase. Don't try to pin it on me. I'd say the exact same thing if you live in Tokyo. Second, how many gamers in Canada do you know "in real life"? When is the last time you gamed with them? Did you take an Exalted poll or just assume that since they don't mention it they don't play it?

Quote from: RPGPunditAre there people who play Exalted? There must be. I sure as fuck don't know any, not irl anyways, but they must exist.  But to claim that Exalted is the breakthrough vanguard hot game of the industry (as they attempted to do on RPG.net), and not just cheap art-porn wankery for people who want to powergame but are too snobby to admit it, so they have to pretend to be playing a "sophisticated deep game about dealing with issues related to massive power", while still daring to sneer and turn their nose up at people who like to play D&D or Palladium and call them "powergamers". Fuck the whole stinking pretentious hypocritical cunt-lot of them.

Swing by White Wolf's Exalted forum some time. There's not a lot of art-porn wankery there. Mostly it's folks talking about how to kick ass and take names. And I've never seen anyone ashamed to admit they like to play Exalted, or claim that it should be powered down or made more emo. Step outside of your paranoid delusions and you'll see the world doesn't look like what you think it does.

Quote from: James J SkachWhat you specifically wrote, if I remember my English, does not reflect what you meant to write, apparently.  Because, you see, both "shit" and "commercial" modify music. This conflates the two. So really you end up with shit and commercial music.

I think it does more than conflate just "commercial" and "shit". It conflate commercial, shit, and music people he knows listen to. If I were to say

QuoteMost people basketball players I know listen to shit, commercial music, too. are tall, black men.

Would you assume that I thought all men were tall and black, all basketball players were tall and black, or even that Larry Byrd is either tall or black?

Quote from: J ArcaneYou claim to be all about free expression, but boy are you quick to go on the attack when you smell even the faintest hint of disagreement with your Holy Writ.

...

So I ask again, how much further will this behavior progress?  When do you start banning people for having the wrong tastes?

Dude, I usually have the deepest respect for your opinions, but you've gone off the rails here.  Pundit pushes.  You push back.  Where did freedom of expression evaporate?

And the day Pundit bans someone for having incompatible tastes is the day this whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  And I'll be among the first out the door.  The fact that anybody can come right back at him full throttle is the only thing on this board that gives Pundit any moral high ground.  If he were stupid enough to give that up, he'd be giving up the whole show.

Quote from: James McMurraySo what you're saying is that he flew down to Uruguay, stuck his dick to your forehead, and shouted "Hound me for answers or I blow a load in your eyes!" Then when you refused he hacked into your account and posted all of your derailments himself?

Or will you admit you played a part? Well, yes or no, motherfucker? did you post derailments or not?

No, I didn't post "derailments", because the question of whether Ian thinks D&D is shit or not is directly relevant to the topic at hand.

QuoteSee how stupid that looks?

See how easy that was to answer, cockmongler?

QuoteFirst, "third world backwater" is your own phrase. Don't try to pin it on me. I'd say the exact same thing if you live in Tokyo.

And yet Uruguay has way more gamers than Tokyo. Uruguay has the third largest percentage of traffic (out of any country in the world) to ENWorld.  That should tell you something right there.

So why not just admit you were trying to make it out that of course the ignorant savages down south wouldn't know Exalted, what with them living in their mud huts and fighting la revolucion all the time?
Dude, here a gamer can get ANY RPG ever put out, all pirated of course, but they can get it no problem.
People don't play Exalted here because no one gives a fuck about it.

QuoteSecond, how many gamers in Canada do you know "in real life"?

More than I know in Uruguay. Which is to say, hundreds.

QuoteWhen is the last time you gamed with them? Did you take an Exalted poll or just assume that since they don't mention it they don't play it?

I was active in the gaming scene in Edmonton up till October 2003 when I left for Uruguay. After that, every time I've come back I've met with a large number of gamers.
On every occasion, one of the questions most asked is "so what are you playing these days"? The answer is NEVER Exalted.
I've been to people's houses, and I have NEVER seen Exalted on their bookshelves.
How hard is this for you to process? Very few normal people play the fucking game, that's it.

QuoteSwing by White Wolf's Exalted forum some time. There's not a lot of art-porn wankery there.

Swing by RPG.net, where most of the Exalted fans have stated they prefer to hang out. There's a metric shitload of Exalted-related art-porn wankery there, constantly.

QuoteMostly it's folks talking about how to kick ass and take names. And I've never seen anyone ashamed to admit they like to play Exalted, or claim that it should be powered down or made more emo.

Great, because I never claimed either of the two.  What I actually fucking said is that Exalted players are ashamed of being powergamers, and they mask that by claiming that Exalted is actually not "about" the powergaming in the same way they constantly denigrate D&D or Palladium for being powergaming, and claiming that Exalted is in some vague incomprehensible way more "Intelligent" or "sophisticated" and "deals with issues" that those other games don't, so its ok for them to have a 2100th level (or "dot") dude who blows up entire continents in it.  
They don't want to power-down Exalted, they're playing Exalted because they have been desperate to blow their powergaming load for years now, after years and years and years of not being able to play D&D because it was for the "unwashed masses", watching them have all the powergaming fun, and being stuck over in White-wolfland pretending to be limp-wristed satin-wearing vampires.
Exalted is for them like what (usually foreign) "Art" films with nudity are for intellectual snobs. You know, those "Art" films that show up late night on the arts & culture network?
They're really just soft or hard-core pornography, but they pretend to be "artistic" so the pretentious snobs who watch it don't have to admit that they're just getting turned on watching porn like the rest of us. No, they watch "art films". Right. :rolleyes:

Exalted is the "art film" of the RPG world. Its powergaming-porn in intellectual wankery-drag.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted is the "art film" of the RPG world. Its powergaming-porn in intellectual wankery-drag.

Art film? Meh. "Matrix"? Yeah. (Which makes your second sentence even more valid)

Quote from: James McMurrayWould you assume that I thought all men were tall and black, all basketball players were tall and black, or even that Larry Byrd is either tall or black?

No Jimmy, C'mon.  You're letting your (sometimes justified) hatred of Pundy get in the way of your thinking.

I'd assume that the men who you knew who played basketball were tall and black. Is that some weird interpretation of what were trying to say? Sheesh.

Quote from: MelinglorBut your core argument, that if you're having fun gaming, you shouldn't (or have no reason to, or whatever) try new games. . .that's such steaming crap that I can't believe you can type it with a straight face. (Who knows, maybe you can't!)

See, I think a lot of this portion of the "debate" is a misunderstanding from people piling into camps and arguing against the people they don't like.

Because the difference between "you shouldn't try new games," and "you have no reason to try new games," is immense. I would disagree with the former and agree with the latter.

Because only you can decide, given your time and the projected effort versus the possible payoff, if you want to try a new game.  Nobody should tell you that you shouldn't.  At the same time, if you're playing a game you like, one and only one game, and that game makes you happy, you have no specific reason to try anything else.

Now some of you may think it's "weird" (like Claudius), or think it's close minded, or a thousand other perspectives.  But if the people deciding not to try other systems are happy, who is anyone else to judge them on this decision? Why is it bad if someone just decides "I'm going to play D20 and nothing else"? Would you have the same problem with someone who said "I'm going to play Burning Wheel/Empires and nothing else," or "It's DitV for me, and maybe Polaris"? I wouldn't in either case.

It's interesting to me that many of the same people who call from the mountain high that gaming is about the fun and the happiness and nobody should judge also seem to think people who are content with the few games they play and have no desire to try this system or that design are somehow deficient.

If that's not the gist of this argument, it's sure coming across that way. But I blame Pundit and Sett...it's all the rage...

Quote from: RPGPunditIan could easily stop all of this by saying "No, I don't believe that D&D is shit".
He could also at least prove himself a man by saying "yes, I believe D&D is shit, and I'm prepared to defend my position".

If you go back to how all this started, you would notice that Ian explained in post #21 what he meant by his statements about commercial and shit. But this off course was not enough for Sett who then proceeds to try and draw Ian into this whole war bullshit by bringing up D&D - note Koltar's response because frankly IMO that's what most folks believe - and linking it with the whole "why try something new if you're having fun" argument, this last part seems perfectly reasonable to me except Sett believes (and I don't think I need to link to any particular thread) that almost all games besides the ones he likes are shit and therefore trying anything new (games which he hates) is bad.

Now does Ian have a posting history of shitting on D&D or folks who enjoy playing it? I don't think so. So when confronted with Sett's obvious attempt to draw him into this nonsensical war he declined. So he did make a defense, just not the one you were/are hoping for.  

QuoteYou can keep slinging mud at Sett and me all you like, but the one guy who is solely responsible for the derailing of this thread is the coward who is so unsure of his own convictions that he cannot answer the fucking question posed to him!

Actually the one who derailed this thread is you. By insisting on Ian making a defense where none is needed you have again brought this thread into the shitzone...actually this thread was doomed to this fate because frankly it was just another one of your rants about us vs them. Like I said before, when you say convictions it merely means extreme views that you wish "your" enemies had so this war could be real.

QuoteTo suggest that this is all some kind of an elaborate frame on my and Sett's part is just stupid. Ian could have ended this at any time by ANSWERING THE FUCKING QUESTION.

He did answer the question, just not the obviously trollish one.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: ImperatorStop discussing that shit with the war people. Let them be with their fairytale war. It's tiresome.

Y'know, if Pundit were actually willing to discuss his reasons for thinking that there's a war, I'd be keen on that.  It'd make for an interesting discussion.

Now, I think he's wrong.  I don't think there's any war.  I think it's a self-reinforcing bias in his perception:  he believes that people with certain tastes are fanatical, and therefore selectively pays attention to the things in their posts that can be interpreted as being fanatical, while discounting everything else.  That's how (for instance) he "knows" what Ian thinks about D&D.

But I'd be open to hearing his reasoning, if he could present it coherently.  Unfortunately, I've never seen him do so.  What he mostly just does is shout his assertions over and over again at the top of his virtual lungs, while firmly shutting his ears to what anyone else is saying in response.

Like, for instance, in this thread.

Quote from: RPGPunditOh yeah, right. D&D sells something like 100 times the amount of product that any other RPG does, but in fact there are just more people buying it. In reality way more people are actually playing Nobilis... :rolleyes:

That's fucking insane.

RPGPundit

Never said that. Actually specifically contradicted it. More like DnD is selling 100 times as well for 25 times as many games, or something to that effect.

Pundit, I can guarantee I enjoy 3.5 as thoroghly as you do... actually probably more so. I even like alot of the shit you and others don't. Like attacks of opportunity. And the ridiculous number of feats/spells/classes/raves that get added. I don't even abhor classes and levels the way others seem to. And anything I don't like happens to have a convenient variant in Unearthed Arcana.

If you'd listen you would realize I would in no way try to put the game as a whole down, and that I know it does sell better and get more played. That was not my point. My point was only to point out one of its better marketing moves.

But there's the thing. You'd actually have to listen.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you weren't scared, you'd answer the fucking question.  Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no?

Are you losing any sleep over this?  I sure didn't.  I had a good evening with my kids, folded the laundry, stayed up too late watching a very good (and very commercial!) movie, then slept like a baby.  

You know, your search engine is broken, which, perhaps, is why you're being such a hair-pulling sissy about this.  I was going to throw you a bone and link you to a couple of posts I've made on the matter of D&D, which would have totally given away my position -- you know, like I've been telling you to do -- but I keep getting the message that "Ian Absentia" is an invalid user name.

But you know, I'm glad I couldn't.  You have two agendas toward which you're working here.  One, you're trying to generate a sense of relevance for this site by creating controversy and drama over a non-issue.  As usual with you, I don't know whether or not you believe the positions you espouse, or if you're just spouting controversial shit for attention, so there's really no gain for me to play along with you.  Two, you plainly enjoy bullying people into responding to your provocations.  I'll confess that I'm enjoying thwarting your attempts to badger me.  So, play on, Macduff.

!i!

Quote from: beejazzPundit, I can guarantee I enjoy 3.5 as thoroghly as you do... actually probably more so.

But do you like it for exactly the same reasons he does?  There's the meat of the matter.  And there lies the battlefield of The Great War for the hearts and souls of gamers everywhere.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, I didn't post "derailments", because the question of whether Ian thinks D&D is shit or not is directly relevant to the topic at hand.

So him saying "no, I won't answer" makes him solely responsible? It seems to me that it takes at least two people to go back and forth asking and refusing to answer questions.

QuoteSee how easy that was to answer, cockmongler?

Sure, when your answer is full of shit. And ease of answering does not equate to relevance or not looking stupid.

QuoteSo why not just admit you were trying to make it out that of course the ignorant savages down south wouldn't know Exalted, what with them living in their mud huts and fighting la revolucion all the time?

Why not admit it? Perhaps because it isn't true? You're the one who started carrying on about Uruguay being a shit hole. All I said was that I didn't think White Wolf did a lot of marketing down there.

QuoteHow hard is this for you to process? Very few normal people play the fucking game, that's it.

It's not hard at all, now that I have the information. See, that's why I ask for info: so I can process the validity of claims. Contrary to your belief, it's not an attack on you, it's an attempt to find out how recent and relevant your knowledge of the Canadian gaming scene is to the topic.

QuoteSwing by RPG.net, where most of the Exalted fans have stated they prefer to hang out. There's a metric shitload of Exalted-related art-porn wankery there, constantly.

I don't doubt it. But the perceived preferences of a subset does not equate the game to be only equal to what they like. If that were true, nobody would ever be roleplaying their characters in D&D, it would all be video-gamey quests for the next level and the next new toy.

QuoteGreat, because I never claimed either of the two.  What I actually fucking said is that Exalted players are ashamed of being powergamers, and they mask that by claiming that Exalted is actually not "about" the powergaming in the same way they constantly denigrate D&D or Palladium for being powergaming, and claiming that Exalted is in some vague incomprehensible way more "Intelligent" or "sophisticated" and "deals with issues" that those other games don't, so its ok for them to have a 2100th level (or "dot") dude who blows up entire continents in it.  

And I countered by pointing to a group of Exalted players that like to talk about power gaming and don't try to hide it. Again, just because your perceptions are limited to the Exalted crowd at RPGnet doesn't mean those guys actually matter in the grand scheme of things (any more than we here at this website matter).

QuoteThey don't want to power-down Exalted, they're playing Exalted because they have been desperate to blow their powergaming load for years now, after years and years and years of not being able to play D&D because it was for the "unwashed masses", watching them have all the powergaming fun, and being stuck over in White-wolfland pretending to be limp-wristed satin-wearing vampires.

Did they tell you this, or is it your enlightened knowledge of them based on your (possibly just a wee bit biased) reading of their threads at a website that banned you a long time ago?

QuoteExalted is the "art film" of the RPG world. Its powergaming-porn in intellectual wankery-drag.

Interesting theory. I assume you already know I disagree.