It's certainly true that if you insist on a "yes" or "no" answer, then "do you think D&D is commercial and shit?" is the same as "have you stopped beating your wife?"

"Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying that I once beat my wife. If I say, "no", then I am saying that I beat her now. This is a problem if, in fact, I have never beat her at all.

"Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying something patently absurd, that what zillions of people like is shit, and that anything commerical must be shit. If I say, "no", then I am reversing my old position that commercialisation of things often, but not always, comes with a lowering of quality.

It's a rhetorical tactic to insist on a yes or no answer to a question which has no right yes or no answer; that way you make your opponent look either foolish (when they step into the yes/no trap), or cowardly (when they refuse to answer). The only way to win that game  is not to play. Ian's tactic is to openly refuse to answer it. My tactic would be to say, as I have here, that a yes or no answer is obviously stupid.

D&D is certainly commercial, but it is not shit. Its commercialisation over the years has led to its being better in some ways, and more bland and confused in others. It is not to my taste, but is obviously to the tastes of millions of other people, and they are not crazy or stupid to like it.

You're not debating people at rpg.net anymore, Settembrini and RPGPundit. You'll have to go beyond the "yes or no!" rhetorical tricks of an eight year old or neocon.

Quote from: JimBobOz"Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying something patently absurd, that what zillions of people like is shit, and that anything commerical must be shit. If I say, "no", then I am reversing my old position that commercialisation of things often, but not always, comes with a lowering of quality.

It's a rhetorical tactic to insist on a yes or no answer to a question which has no right yes or no answer; that way you make your opponent look either foolish (when they step into the yes/no trap), or cowardly (when they refuse to answer). The only way to win that game  is not to play. Ian's tactic is to openly refuse to answer it. My tactic would be to say, as I have here, that a yes or no answer is obviously stupid.

But the truth is we all know what Ian really believes, we know he precisely does believe that what zillions of people like is shit, and he's just too much of a pussy to admit it, because he knows that his argument is so unpopular he can only promote it through deception and manipulation.

The reason there is "no right yes or no answer" is because Ian's beliefs are so absurd that they don't allow for a non-absurd answer.

QuoteD&D is certainly commercial, but it is not shit.

Ian could easily say that, and I would accept it. But the point is that's not what he really believes, is it? Ian believes that it is commercial shit.

QuoteYou're not debating people at rpg.net anymore, Settembrini and RPGPundit. You'll have to go beyond the "yes or no!" rhetorical tricks of an eight year old or neocon.

I'm sure as hell debating the fuck out of you sorry lot. Like it or not, my rhetoric isn't what's making Ian look like a fucking coward, its the fact that he IS a fucking coward that's making him look like one, my debating skills are just helping to show that to all and sundry.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditLook, if someone asked me "Do you think that D&D is crap", or say, "Do you think that Dogs in the Vinyard is crap?", I would have no trouble answering them straight.  Why the fuck do the other guys have so much trouble being straight up about what they think, unless they realize that the only way they can get ahead is by lying about their true sentiments?

RPGPundit

It's not a straight question, and you know it.  Cut the crap already, no one but you is buying it.  

So how long before you progress to actually banning people for wrongthink?  Anyone wanna take bets before the witchhunts start having more consequences than jsut this shrill little shithead shouting about it?

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's not a straight question, and you know it.  Cut the crap already, no one but you is buying it.  

Please, go ahead, please fucking explain to me how me asking that question is any less straight than one of you asking me if I think DiTV is crap?

Put up with the reasons why its so fucking different, or get the fuck off the batter's mound. Until you can actually explain how I'm being so drastically unfair by expecting Ian to actually clarify his foundational beliefs, don't expect that any other argument you make will carry any weight.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted could very well be (and quite possibly is) bigger sales-wise than all the Forge games put together, and yet still be utterly irrelevant when compared to the sales of other games.

Its not that hard to out-sell everything the Forge has ever put out all together.

RPGPundit

Pundy, nowadays Exalted is bigger sales-wise than most, possibly all, d20 games.

Amazon sales rank of Exalted Second Ed. right now: #19,976

There is D&D. And then there's everything else. And one of the biggest chunks--if not the biggest chunk--of everything else is currently a mainstream game called Exalted.

It's even outselling Vampire, another mainstream game. Why? Obviously, because it's more like D&D, so it attracts people crossing over from the biggest gamer pool on the market. Exalted has torn down the barrier you want to keep up. It's White Wolf's "adventure game."

Quote from: RPGPunditBut the truth is we all know what Ian really believes, we know he precisely does believe that what zillions of people like is shit, and he's just too much of a pussy to admit it, because he knows that his argument is so unpopular he can only promote it through deception and manipulation.

"We" do ? Really? Where in this site has Ian ever displayed the kind of phathetic dogmatic beliefs you and Sett have ? He has talked about plenty of games and as far as I can recall he has not pissed on any one group of gamers or playstyles.

Regards,
David R

I repeat my question, which was very clear in the context.
For clarity, I´ll repeat the context also:


I kneejerked, because I thought Ian was making the Swine-argument of D&D == McDonalds/Britney Spears with his music analogy. I asked him, keeping in the music analogy, if J. Cash, Pink Floyd or the Beatles were shit.

He said:

"No! I said there are things that are commercial, and there are things commercial and shit."

I asked him:

"So do you think D&D is commercial and shit?"

It´s pretty clear and pretty on-topic regarding what Ian himself started saying to just answer that.

Quote from: RPGPunditPlease, go ahead, please fucking explain to me how me asking that question is any less straight than one of you asking me if I think DiTV is crap?

Put up with the reasons why its so fucking different, or get the fuck off the batter's mound. Until you can actually explain how I'm being so drastically unfair by expecting Ian to actually clarify his foundational beliefs, don't expect that any other argument you make will carry any weight.

RPGPundit

Why don't you ask yourself why the fuck someone's "position" or "beliefs" on a roleplaying game must somehow be "declared" as if it's a goddamn check box on a voter's form, or a public statement from a politician.

Ask yourself why it's so goddamn important to you what the hell he thinks, and what you're prepared to do about it if you don't like the answer.

Even if he does think it's crap (which he doesn't, and neither do I, something you'd know if you actually paid the slightest attention to parts of this board that aren't your personal rants), why the fuck does that even matter?

This is a general RPG board, right?  One that supposedly prides itself on freedom of opinion and expression?  

so again, answer me, why the fuck is it suddenly so important that you know what Ian's "official position is on D&D" or whatever the fuck it is you're fishing for?

Do you actually believe this utter crap you just wrote?

Are you that dumb?

Following your logic, there never would be any discussion.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityPundy, nowadays Exalted is bigger sales-wise than most, possibly all, d20 games.

Amazon sales rank of Exalted Second Ed. right now: #19,976

There is D&D. And then there's everything else. And one of the biggest chunks--if not the biggest chunk--of everything else is currently a mainstream game called Exalted.

It's even outselling Vampire, another mainstream game. Why? Obviously, because it's more like D&D, so it attracts people crossing over from the biggest gamer pool on the market. Exalted has torn down the barrier you want to keep up. It's White Wolf's "adventure game."

On the list of top selling books in the RPG category in Amazon, 16 of the top 20 are D&D, 1 is the Star Wars saga edition book, 1 is D&D dice, 1 is a book about Second Life, and 1 is the Shadowrun 4th ed book (!?).

D20 modern is ranked #25.

The WoD 2e corebook is #37.

Exalted is #42.  Granted, it beats out Vampire (at #48) but that would hardly put it in competition with SW D20 or D20 modern.
Are there people who play Exalted? There must be. I sure as fuck don't know any, not irl anyways, but they must exist.  But to claim that Exalted is the breakthrough vanguard hot game of the industry (as they attempted to do on RPG.net), and not just cheap art-porn wankery for people who want to powergame but are too snobby to admit it, so they have to pretend to be playing a "sophisticated deep game about dealing with issues related to massive power", while still daring to sneer and turn their nose up at people who like to play D&D or Palladium and call them "powergamers". Fuck the whole stinking pretentious hypocritical cunt-lot of them.

See? That's a man putting his convictions out in the open. Its not that hard.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneWhy don't you ask yourself why the fuck someone's "position" or "beliefs" on a roleplaying game must somehow be "declared" as if it's a goddamn check box on a voter's form, or a public statement from a politician.

Because we're actually arguing about RPGs here? :rolleyes:
Holy fuck, talk about retarded positions: "Ian's opinions about the biggest mainstream RPG in history is his own private business and should have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of his arguments on a thread about mainstream RPGs".
I mean jesus fucking christ on a stick, I'm asking him his position on the subject at fucking hand here, its not like I asked him if he liked to rape sheep!?

QuoteThis is a general RPG board, right?  One that supposedly prides itself on freedom of opinion and expression?  

so again, answer me, why the fuck is it suddenly so important that you know what Ian's "official position is on D&D" or whatever the fuck it is you're fishing for?

Because its directly relevant to the particular subject of this specific thread, you ignorant slut.

RPGPundit

QuoteHoly fuck, talk about retarded positions: "Ian's opinions about the biggest mainstream RPG in history is his own private business and should have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of his arguments on a thread about mainstream RPGs".

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.  You really are thick fucker, aren't you?

One's personal tastes have no bearing on the actual realities of the larger market and the positions of various games in sales charts.  The irony being that despite the fact that this was supposedly the whole point of your original post, you've apparently already forgotten it.

YOU, are conflating the two, for the sole purpose of playing your little wichhunt game, deliberately misinterpreting someone's words for the sake of being able to dump them in your neat little boxes of "goodthink" and "badthink".

Nowhere in his statement does he say anything about his personal tastes on D&D, nor did he make the mistake of conflating his poersonal opinions with the realities of the game market, something you have done time nd time again on this site, backing up your idiotic partisanship with sales figures as if that somehow means you play the RIGHT WAY, and everyone who disagrees palys the WRONG WAY.

But you don't see it.  You can't see it.  You just jump into every fucking thread and immediately start looking for statements to twist, blame to throw around, labels to apply willy nilly, and generally on the prowl for badwrongthink.  

You claim to be all about free expression, but boy are you quick to go on the attack when you smell even the faintest hint of disagreement with your Holy Writ.  

Even if, as in this case and so many others, any evidence you even think ou have for this supposed wrong thinking is completely in your own mind.

So I ask again, how much further will this behavior progress?  When do you start banning people for having the wrong tastes?

Quote from: RPGPunditOn the list of top selling books in the RPG category in Amazon, 16 of the top 20 are D&D, 1 is the Star Wars saga edition book, 1 is D&D dice, 1 is a book about Second Life, and 1 is the Shadowrun 4th ed book (!?).

D20 modern is ranked #25.

The WoD 2e corebook is #37.

Exalted is #42.  Granted, it beats out Vampire (at #48) but that would hardly put it in competition with SW D20 or D20 modern.
Are there people who play Exalted? There must be. I sure as fuck don't know any, not irl anyways, but they must exist.  But to claim that Exalted is the breakthrough vanguard hot game of the industry (as they attempted to do on RPG.net), and not just cheap art-porn wankery for people who want to powergame but are too snobby to admit it, so they have to pretend to be playing a "sophisticated deep game about dealing with issues related to massive power", while still daring to sneer and turn their nose up at people who like to play D&D or Palladium and call them "powergamers". Fuck the whole stinking pretentious hypocritical cunt-lot of them.

See? That's a man putting his convictions out in the open. Its not that hard.

RPGPundit

Pundy, we know why Star Wars is as high up as it is. On your list, the only salient example for your cause is d20 Modern. And it doesn't contradict what I stated.

You hate Exalted because it's way too much like D&D yet it's coming from White Wolf. AND because it shows that the barrier between the two games is fluid as far as the clientele is concerned. Lots of people play both, some of them esteemed members of this site.

And we know why. The tertium of D&D 3.x and Exalted IS the powergaming playstyle. With your artsy/powergamey dichotomy you are stuck in the early 90s... together with the original Vampire goths.

Menawhile, in 2007, swine and non-swine all bow before the mighty character build. You want something other than that, do as I do, play D&D before 2E.

Quote from: GunslingerDoes putting something in philosophical proof form make it a stronger argument no matter how ridiculous?

No.

But putting it in the form of a PowerPoint presentation will

Quote from: RPGPunditDo you think D&D is commercial and shit?

Confusing.

Is this standard English asking "Do you think D&D is commercial and is also shit?", or is this slang asking "Do you think D&D is commercial and other things related to being commercial?"?

Linguistic ambiguity aside, WOW did this thread ever crash and burn quickly. Is it always like this around here, cause if it is, sling some mud my way so I can play too. I'm getting a bit bored.





Here, I'll provide an opening. I wasn't completely honest before. I DO have a definition for mainstream. I go to a mall, and whatever I see there is mainstream. By that measure, not even D&D is really mainstream. Wizards couldn't make their mall stores work, and neither could Games Workshop, at least in the US.

You know an RPG that's mainstream? World of Warcraft. It's mainstream because I can discuss it in public without people looking at me funny.

And you know another mainstream RPG? Harry Potter.

But wait I hear, there is no Harry Potter RPG. Well, for some reason this hasn't stopped millions of children from acting as if they were students at Hogwarts. Children are natural roleplayers. They don't need a 'system' to roleplay or enforce genre conventions. The only reason rules are ever brought into the picture is to make sure things are 'fair'.

And this question of "is it fair?" keeps popping up in new D&D player's threads, yet many older players seem confused by nature of the question. To the new blood (and yes, this is a generalization), the rules are there to resolve disagreements, not to create a game, a simulation, or a narrative. Those are what ADULT gamers look for, and sometimes I honestly believe that the only reason adults use a game system at all is because they're too old and embarrassed to just play pretend, and need an excuse.

And finally, the coup de grâce, the piece de resistance, the insert French term here, is that all these mainstream roleplayers actually make up a far BIGGER group than D&D players. It's just a little harder to spot them and market to. Hell, I even suspect that the S&M roleplaying market is bigger, I just can't get the proof I need (which obviously means more research is needed :keke: ).

So as big as D&D is, it's still a tiny fish, and I still do a doubletake when it's used in the same sentence as the word 'mainstream'.

This discussion has taken a turn for the worse. Pundit, there's no accounting for taste. Seriously, because the majority likes it doesn't make it the be-all end-all of the hobby. Amber, for example, you seem to love... it's hardly the behemoth DnD is. And I'm sure your liking that game is justified... not by sales figures or majority rule, but on merit. And I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find you bitching about DnD somewhere or other, even if it's only this or that about the latest edition.

Now, all this stuff about it feeling good to actually seek stuff out rather than just taking what you're given on the radio, there's truth in it. Because there is. Because if you like roleplaying enough to dig a little, it can be fun. And if you aren't "deep" into it, and just play what's available for a kickass one-shot (regardless of what "what's available" is) that's a legit choice in and of itself. I do the former. My players do the latter. We get along fine. They'll try anything once and that's good enough for me.

As has been said, it isn't a war; it's a hobby. If I want model trains of varying scales and track width, there's no law against it. If I prefer some off-brand osco crayons to crayola, who cares? Hell, I can even say that there's a reason for that preference, in that I prefer actual colors like "sepia" or "umber" or "magenta" over copyrighted nouns like "pumpkin." Even with logic behind it, it still backs up something totally arbitrary: my preference.

And J: Don't encourage him.