The only reason chargen might take more than 20 minutes is lack of books, or it's the very first time that people have ever played and are trying to learn the rules simultaneously to make meaningful choices.

I also don't start games off with combats, and I don't introduce new PCs to replace old ones until there's a reasonable break or pause, to avoid a meat-grinder effect.

Because of this, everyone gets at least a little while to play their PC before they're slain (if they are slain).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;503461The only reason chargen might take more than 20 minutes is lack of books, or it's the very first time that people have ever played and are trying to learn the rules simultaneously to make meaningful choices.

With your guys maybe, but not with everybody, mate. With my players for the Ptolus campaign we had for two years, the whole character design and upkeep afterwards was a drag. I think that stems from the fact that the players just went interested in playing an accounting game of their imaginations, but wanted to play the fucking game and kick ass already, if you see what I mean (that was an all female, teachers group, btw LOL). In hindsight, I should have played B/X at the time. That's a lesson learned on my part.

The OP poses a lot of 'ifs'. If we had just gone through a long char-gen process and someone popped their clogs in the first session, we as a group would probably fiat them back to life.

I'm sure the Pundit would agree that FUN through emulation is the foundation of the game - not just emulation for emulation's sake - so let that be your guide.

Quote from: Benoist;503465With your guys maybe, but not with everybody, mate. With my players for the Ptolus campaign we had for two years, the whole character design and upkeep afterwards was a drag. I think that stems from the fact that the players just went interested in playing an accounting game of their imaginations, but wanted to play the fucking game and kick ass already, if you see what I mean (that was an all female, teachers group, btw LOL). In hindsight, I should have played B/X at the time. That's a lesson learned on my part.

Once you get super familiar with 3.5, the choices, especially for low level characters, are usually so obvious that char gen speeds up rapidly.

The ones I find take the longest are RQ-likes, since there's less optimisation than in 3.5, which means that people really need to make choices without a clear idea of which choice is "better".

1. Quick character generation.

2. Character generation which is a fun part of the game itself, so if you die at the end it's all part of the "narrative".

3. Otherwise, fate points, but still have an element of chance. I mean, if DM fudging is going to save your ass in game 1, that's a guarantee isn't it? Worse, if the DM doesn't do it in an edge case, you're going to have ill-will. So go ahead with the fate points, but avoid uses that guarantee outcomes, or make it very tempting to use them, so that after a few sessions, they're gone anyway.

4. Or, multiple characters per player...though this usually isn't gonna work if you have lengthy chargen and players who write pages of backstory for their special snowflakes.

5. In that case, maybe you should play a stakes-setting game, and just never put death on the table. Or similar, as in DitV, where death can't be a stake, but can be a consequence. Or as in The Shadow of Yesterday, where PC death only happens in extended conflict.

6. Like 5, but more subtle, don't force the PCs into situations where they can die, in the first few sessions. If they start a fight, sure. Otherwise: capture, talk, enemies run away, etc. Develop character and situation so that if death happens in session 3, it means something.

7. A game system that has a big buffer between being hurt and being dead. I.e., not original D&D played straight (but D&D has other features among those listed above, which make this not a concern).

Obviously some of these approaches are more story gamey than others, it's up to you and your group how to work things, it's mainly a matter of knowing the trade offs and consequences.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;503474Once you get super familiar with 3.5, the choices, especially for low level characters, are usually so obvious that char gen speeds up rapidly.

I agree, but the fact is, many players are simply not interested in getting that familiar with the game mechanics.

The game's baseline needs to assume you can just roll up a character, play, and worry about the rules as a player later, or not at all. Yet, have the stuffing for all those players who DO want this stuff nonetheless. They matter too.

A game that assumes for its baseline that the player will read the entire rules book to create a character is a non-starter in my mind.

Quote from: Benoist;503482I agree, but the fact is, many players are simply not interested in getting that familiar with the game mechanics.

The game's baseline needs to assume you can just roll up a character, play, and worry about the rules as a player later, or not at all. Yet, have the stuffing for all those players who DO want this stuff nonetheless. They matter too.

A game that assumes for its baseline that the player will read the entire rules book to create a character is a non-starter in my mind.

I agree, and it's one of the reasons that I won't play 3.5 anymore. When I was asked to run what is now my Emern game, I essentially had a totally free choice of what system I wanted to run - most of the guys have never roleplayed before, or if they have, it was just under ten years ago, back when 3.0 was still really new.

My decision at the time was to play S&W Complete because 1) I was interested in the system and hadn't run a game of it yet 2) Teaching six people how to play 3.5 without being able to assume any prior knowledge of the game was overwhelming, especially since I would have to not only teach them the basics of the game, but ideally at least set them on the path to playing it well.

Though, to be fair, playing D&D 3.5 with a group that knows it really well and is able to really pull full value out of the system can be a real pleasure. It's the fun of watching a very complex piece of machinery with lots of moving parts performing smoothly.

Quote from: Omnifray;503396We do not live in a world of shoulds and oughts, but in a world of is and is not. You may enjoy CharGen, and so may I, but some of my players are not such huge fans, and I recognise that. What's more, if I end up pre-genning everyone's characters, that's a lot of effort to go to if they then snuff it straight away.

I agree.  In a game I am actually a player for once, the DM wanted to make PRE-GENS and I stated I will not play a PREGEN, plain and simple.  I will make my own character because it is mine, I made it, and simply stated, character generation is a personal thing to me.

Quote from: Omnifray;503396We do not live in a world of shoulds and oughts, but in a world of is and is not. You may enjoy CharGen, and so may I, but some of my players are not such huge fans, and I recognise that. What's more, if I end up pre-genning everyone's characters, that's a lot of effort to go to if they then snuff it straight away.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;503544I agree.  In a game I am actually a player for once, the DM wanted to make PRE-GENS and I stated I will not play a PREGEN, plain and simple.  I will make my own character because it is mine, I made it, and simply stated, character generation is a personal thing to me.

The thing is, as Classic Traveller showed me, when you want to use CharGen as a minigame that is great, but a minigame CharGen system can inadvertantly kill the character you are trying to create to enable you to go do some Actual Play - which is what most Players really want to do.

Bah, I'm totally hippy on this one. I can appreciate the logic and appeal of a gritty, live or die by the dice kind of game; I just prefer games where casual character death is explicitly off the table and where fights are about something more interesting than survival.

Superheroes games are great for that. Say your character loses a fight with a supervillain and as a result the bad guy gets away with the major has his hostage; you don't get to just roll a new character and have a fresh start; your character should actually have to deal with the consequences of his failure and clean up his own mess. Killing off the character in that instance is just a cop out.

That said if casual character death is on the table, it should be always be so - even when it is inconvenient like at the start of the game or when it affects the entire party.  However you chose to run a game it should be open and coherent. The sort of "I'd fudge the dice to prevent a TPK but not to save a single character" approach I find is the worst of both worlds.

The problem posed is caused by high lethality systems with long character generation.  If your character generation is "3d6 down the line, now pick a name and class," high lethality doesn't matter that much because you can have Jane Fighter replacing Joe Fighter in just a few minutes.  If your character generation is "point buy, now select your race, class, feats, skills, spells, alignment, religion, and a handful of miscellaneous bullshit," you are going to have a much longer character generation process and thus players are going to automatically be more attached to their characters.

Solution: pick fast generation/high lethality or slow generation/low lethality.  Don't mix and match.

To the question in the OP: I would probably allow the player to reroll/rewind, but only once.

I am a storygamer. I let the dice fall where they fall. I don't fudge, cheat or roll behind a screen.
If your character dies 5 minutes into the game, well tough luck, but the story goes on. There are other characters at the table that will have to react to that death, NPC your character was connected with etc etc.
But I have to admit that there are no random fights against goblins in my games, so my style might not be applicable to most of you.

Quote from: Omnifray;503335But what if literally the first significant thing that happens after CharGen is that through some mildly imprudent choice your character ends up exposed to some common ailment, rolls badly and dies?

Been there done that. Playing in a Arduin Grimore game in 1986 in Waukegan, IL(at Friends Hobby and Computers). Rolled up a Fighter, with a Wild Psionic Talent(Levitation). Awesome stats, he had a 19 INT and a 19 DEX, He met up with the party as they were traversing a mountain trail. We had to go single file along a long ledge way up the side of a cliff. We had to roll a Dex check(1d20, roll under Dex). "No problem!" I proclaim. ~clatter of a d20, "20?!" I was in shock as the GM described that I fell to my death on the rocks far below. It took me a minute and then I said, "Hey, what about my Psi ability of Leviation, wouldn't I had used that?" The GM said, "Well you didn't say you were going to use it but I'll allow it if you make a INT Check." "No problem," I say again. ~clatter of a d20, "20?! Again?! ARRRGGHHHHhhh!!!"

And thus my awesome Fighter I had named "Blade" due to a sword blade tattoo on his right arm, died after only 10 minutes of game play. Was I sad? of course. Did I ask the GM to fudge anything, of course not. After a couple of minutes of letting the shock wear off, I grabbed my dice and rolled up another one.

Also, you should know that "Blade" wasn't the only character death I had that night. For the longest time, and I'd have to call the owner to verify but I'd bet that I still hold the record of "Most Character Deaths in one night." I lost 4 PCs that night. We used to play for several hours and I think the rate was about 1 Character/3 hours or something like that. But Blade is still the shortest lived character I ever had.

Before that my personal record was in my first year of gaming. My first game group(30? years ago), we were all very new to AD&D. The group made up characters and we received the first part of our quest. We had been given notice to travel to the Kingdom Capital to see the King to learn what quest we were being summoned to do. On the way there the DM rolled a Random Encounter and got 3 Red Dragons. So, we scattered hoping that some of us would live but the Dragons chased down all of us and had cooked PC snacks that afternoon. I still remember the shock of that first Random Encounter for the campaign and the DM describing how the smallest of the Red Dragons chased down my Halfling Thief and used his breath weapon. The DM actually rolled dice even though the minimum damage of the Breath Weapon was twice as many HPs as my character had...

Dexterity check or die?  Sounds like a shitty GM.  Dexterity check or slip is another thing, but telling you straight off the bat that your character falls to his death unless you pass a check is junk.

I hope that DM made sure to describe the heaps of skeletons beneath that ledge...