Encountered this recently, the system doesn't really matter because it's a general principle. It amazes me in the 21st century, with almost half a century of game design and play experience that people still write rulebooks this way.

What I mean is they have a chargen process which begins with "come up with a character concept". As in dream about the sort of character you want to play.

Then follow with a random method of assigning attributes or other game-critical character stats. Meaning whatever you came up with initially will either have to be drastically skewed or even binned entirely depending on the fall of the dice.

Note this is not a rant about random chargen - but about doing futile things in the wrong order. If your game has randomness significant enough to essentially determine the things that matter about the character, roll stats first, then get to rationalising what they mean as a character concept.

Otherwise you're just encouraging pointless expenditure of time and effort for no good reason.

I agree that randomized attribute rolling, if included, should be the first step in character generation to give you an idea of what potential aptitudes your character might have.  You can always choose to play an inept character whose attributes are ill-suited to the concept you came up with but it shouldn't be something that you're encouraged let alone "forced" to do by the order of chargen operations.  Of course, I say that as someone who started gaming in the 90s and who has a strong preference for point buy systems instead so *insert bias here*. 

Quote from: RNGm on April 27, 2025, 07:11:38 AMI agree that randomized attribute rolling, if included, should be the first step in character generation to give you an idea of what potential aptitudes your character might have.  You can always choose to play an inept character whose attributes are ill-suited to the concept you came up with but it shouldn't be something that you're encouraged let alone "forced" to do by the order of chargen operations.  Of course, I say that as someone who started gaming in the 90s and who has a strong preference for point buy systems instead so *insert bias here*. 

I have similar preferences (also started in the 90s), but yes, the main thrust is about turning chargen into make-work, because the sequence of events is wrong.

This book in particular did then feature two alternative (but "optional") attribute generation methods, one allowing you to assign your random stats to taste (default is random in order), and a point buy method.

Though they commit the other sin that often happens when there's a non-random option: making it significantly worse than the random one. Is it really so hard for some game designers to let players create the characters they want to play?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a rulebook really talk about "here's the random stuff you're born with, now imagine what sort of adventurer you'd be that." But that's how everyone I gamed with did it back in the 70's and 80's.

It would certainly be interesting to see that concept laid out explicitly in a game.

My ideal is some back and forth of a mix--which naturally is somewhat more difficult to convey to the player. Limits breed creativity.  Players do often come to the game with an idea of what they want to play.  The conflict between those two drives is fertile ground when it can be successfully navigated.

That is why I have random character generation but mixed with at least one moderately high score, allowing the player to swap any two scores after the random generation, and built in limited cut concrete options to improve ability scores as the character gets experience.  So the player can come to the game with a general concept, roll ability scores, then mix the general concept with those scores to flesh out the concept with the creativity that the limits cause. 

I also find that this takes out the worst aspects of point buy, such as dragging the whole process out trying to eke out every little edge--real or sometimes imagined.

The key is the random stuff does not effectively determine your character. Sure, you might have rearranged order of priority on some secondary attributes, and those random skills you got from your race/culture might not be exactly what you had in mind, and the free starting equipment you were granted by your family/tribe/whatever might not fit exactly where you are going.  However, you get that limited but critical control over the arrangement of your attributes, you get some other skill picks that are wide open and more that are largely under your control, and finding the money/equipment to get where you want to be is a good opening motivation.

It's been interesting testing, because more often than not, the creativity spurred by those initial limits gets the player to take the character somewhere they did not envision, but now want to go.  And when it doesn't, those vestigial bits become the part that makes the character well-rounded.  "Well, my folks assumed I'd stay in the maritime merchants guild like they did, but it never appealed. That's why I know my way around a ship even though it has nothing to do with who I am now." 

I agree. I see there being (at minimum) two paths:

Roll a character and see what the dice give you and then craft something from that. The rules provide the ingredients and the dice provide measures.

Build a character using the ingredients and measures provided by the rules.

Mixing the two is pretty likely to result in a bad result.

You mean like shoehorning Method V into Unearthed Arcana...at that point you might as well just assign attributes instead of rolling. My guess is that the barbarian was almost unplayable without 18s in CON and DEX, but that's just a guess.

The important thing is being able to die in chargen! :-)

Quote from: Tod13 on April 27, 2025, 10:59:36 AMThe important thing is being able to die in chargen! :-)

It's not dying... it's just regenerative chargen like Doctor Who because you just go into the next one! 

Quote from: RNGm on April 27, 2025, 11:47:17 AM

Quote from: Tod13 on April 27, 2025, 10:59:36 AMThe important thing is being able to die in chargen! :-)

It's not dying... it's just regenerative chargen like Doctor Who because you just go into the next one! 

And now I want rules about being able to inherit from the previous chargen attempt... LOL

Quote from: Zalman on April 27, 2025, 07:27:11 AMI'm not sure I've ever seen a rulebook really talk about "here's the random stuff you're born with, now imagine what sort of adventurer you'd be that." But that's how everyone I gamed with did it back in the 70's and 80's.

It would certainly be interesting to see that concept laid out explicitly in a game.

I kind of agree. It doesn't necessarily need to be "birth" attributes, but things you didn't necessarily have a say about learning or developing. A few random traits make for a much more interesting start than rolling out your stats.

The way I tend to run character creation is to let players pull 3-4 random specs from a hat, then let them discard one. I don't require players to meet the chargen requirements for these random specs (they usually aren't high enough level for it to matter) but if their character meets the character creation requirements for at least 2 of the random specs they drew and kept, they get to fish around on the table for random features other players discarded.

You'd think this is a Session Zero only mechanic, but that isn't exactly true. If someone needs to reroll or if a new player joins, you can reuse the leftovers bucket of discarded abilities for both halves of the process.

I tend to really like this process. It's a bit time consuming and finicky, and usually breaks RAW character advancement, but it also lets me encourage players to pick up certain skills or features I know will probably be useful in the campaign.

Quote from: Tod13 on April 27, 2025, 12:34:33 PMAnd now I want rules about being able to inherit from the previous chargen attempt... LOL

Well, you could try to convert the rule from the Astral Elf for 5e into whatever system you play...     I'd call it the Dax rule to borrow from another classic franchise (also ruined).

QuoteWhenever you finish this trance, you gain proficiency in one skill of your choice and with one weapon or tool of your choice, selected from the Player's Handbook. You magically acquire these proficiencies by drawing them from shared elven memory and the experiences of entities on the Astral Plane, and you retain them until you finish your next long rest.

I've been looking at various game systems (as in literally dozens as I'm taking notes, lol!) in an effort to broaden my horizons regarding the first two decades of fantasy gaming and its more modern OSR offshoots and homages. 

@Kiero.   I was looking today at the 5e and B/X hybrid Into the Unknown and it actually had dual order character generation as we've been discussing here.  In the "discover your character" method you roll randomly for attributes first whereas with the "choose your character" method you pick from a set of standard arrays last instead.   I think that's a good compromise for both ends of the preference spectrum.

Quote from: Kiero on April 27, 2025, 07:17:29 AMThis book in particular did then feature two alternative (but "optional") attribute generation methods, one allowing you to assign your random stats to taste (default is random in order), and a point buy method.

This is your actual answer.  If the game has randomization as the "default" but has an order that clearly dictates some manner of non-random (either "arrange random stats to taste" or "point buy" or "matrix") as "optional", then rest assured 98% of the testing was with the "optional" builds.

Frankly, it's generally better to tell the players to make their stats then pick class or skills or whatever.  Since all the randomness in play has already happened (there may be later rolls for skills or bonus stats or money), the player will naturally go back and forth as needed, depending on the character generation method. 

For a solid combination of this, check out Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number, which want you to roll, then let you stamp a 14 anywhere if you do, but have a matrix build option instead, and then you start making other decisions- some of which might involve dice.  It's a very good order and extremely well written.

QuoteThough they commit the other sin that often happens when there's a non-random option: making it significantly worse than the random one. Is it really so hard for some game designers to let players create the characters they want to play?

That's not a sin nor error.  It's a great virtue.  There's three great reasons to do this.

1- Random is fundamentally less able to get you to something you want that point-build or matrix.  There must be compensation for this, in the form of a higher average.  Not just a higher envelope, but a higher average. 
2- Because even a pretty generous method like AD&D 1e's default method (and 5e's default method) of 4d6, drop lowest, six times, arrange to taste, will still often enough produce something not great at all, having a higher average actually makes this way less likely.  The average must be higher for this reason too. 
3- People who are willing to entrust their fate to the dice deserve a chance to roll an amazing score.  Cowards who want point buy do not.  I say all this as someone who hates rolling for stats and always pushes point buy.

I've never seen a game with matrix or point buy that gives crappy characters.  I'll freely admit my field of experience may be less than yours (or everyone in the thread for that matter) on this topic, but making worse characters than the average roll is 100% how you have to design point buy or matrix.

It depends what the rolling really does.

Notably, rolling the AD&D Method I (best 3 of 4d6 and arrange as desired) barely told you anything about the character in most cases. At most, it told you if you could qualify for one of the special classes like Ranger. It's still better to roll first, but the roll generally didn't tell you much and didn't get in the way of most concepts - so it isn't a big deal.

When doing random-roll, I prefer to actually go whole hog and do stats in order as well as random race, sex, and a few background traits. I'd generally roll up three to five complete characters and pick one that I like. The others I'd have as backup characters or donate as NPCs. However, that's a rare preference in my experience - even back in the 1980s.